C.I.A. Expanding Terror Battle Under Guise of Charter Flights

Originally posted by Majic
Plenty Of Rancor For The CIA, But Not For Torture Nations

Not to put words in anyone's mouth, some folks in this thread do indeed seem to be opposed to torture in general -- although it tends to be lost in all the nation-bashing. Well, America-bashing, actually..

Our government condones torture and has adopted policies that are in direct opposition to the spirit and letter of the Constitution. I think we can agree that it is a pretty bitter pill to swallow as an American citizen raised with democratic ideals of freedom and justice. I would go as far to say that rendition and condoning torture are inherently anti-American in spirit.

I'm not sure how disagreeing with activities that the government has engaged in that are anti-American falls under the banner of "America-bashing." I don't agree with policies of torture in other nations, but then again, I don't participate in a representative Democracy in those nations either. I have a right to disagree with the actions of my government representatives--especially when they are acting in an offensive manner.

I also feel that the government of the United States is more culpable because of the hypocrisy inherent in their actions. To march under the banner of democracy and freedom and then to not only avoid condemning the practice of using torture--but support it by rendering prisoners to Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Uzbekistan, and our own Guantanamo Bay, makes the United States more guilty in my eyes. Uzbekistan doesn't hide their pots of boiling oil, yet the United States seems to hide behind them.

Also, to justify our actions with an "eye-for-an-eye" logic is to compromise the very ideals that we are supposedly fighting for. If Democracy is negotiable, then why bother even fighting in the first place? By using terrorist tactics, we become terrorists. If we choose to defend democracy by subverting it, then it proves that we don't believe in it in the first place... and then the terrorists have won, haven't they?

Originally posted by Majic
Plenty Of Rancor For The CIA, But Not For Torture Nations

What undermines credibility of this “Anti-CIA” campaign is the rather obvious fact the people are bagging on the CIA while being very careful not to say so much as an unkind word about the fact that these countries are known to practice torture.

It gives me a “forest for the trees” sort of vibe.

Selective outrage = political toolsmanship.

If you don't like torture, I recommend not being picky about who you condemn for it.

I agree with your sentiments generally, but I think actually you are missing the trees for the forest.

Yes, you will gain more support if you condemn torture evenly across the board.

But, for Americans, of which I am one, we must realize that there is a crucial difference between foreign countries torturing citizens and our own country doing it (or, as in the present case, causing it to be done).

The difference is: these actions are being done in OUR name. With OUR money. With the approval of politicians WE put in office to do right. And unlike torture in other countries, we can actually do something about it, if enough people become outraged. ("We" being the American public.)

People's lives would be better if they kept their own house in order. Torture of course is to be condemned in general, but we must not let that make us lose focus of the specific instances.

-koji K.

WoT Forum Epiphany

I'm sorry, I just realized that I commented on this months ago. I don't even care enough to look up which thread. I think was in ATSNN at first. Maybe.

I'll be frank. It just now hit me: I don't care anymore.

I give up.

I've read this stuff so many times, I just can't take it anymore. Over and over, the same things. It just grinds on you, and wears you down after a while.

Reading this same crap over and over again is torture. It is cruel and inhuman to inflict this on us over and over again.

It's my fault, because I was supposed to stay away from the WoT forum. I promised myself, but I screwed up somehow.

I know I used to care. I remember. Heck, I think I cared just a little while ago. I think.

I don't want us to be evil. It used to matter. Somewhere, sometime. It used to be important.

So we're the bad guys? Well, okay. I'll try to get used to it.

Great. We're evil.

Let's believe it. The CIA is too damn wimpy to torture its own damn prisoners.

The truth has at long last been driven home to me.

And the truth is that I really don't give a damn, and that this is not why I come to ATS.

I truly no longer care about this, and it's a tremendous relief to finally realize it and admit it to my fellow members at long last.

I'm truly sorry, but that is how I honestly feel now.

To hell with it.

About Last Night...

Sorry about the preceding drama.

While ATS is a discussion forum, and all opinions -- even those expressing apathy -- are equally valid, temper tantrums like the one I threw above don't contribute anything meaningful to the discussion..

Worse, they inject a tone which I would like to see less of on ATS. Yet here I am, doing it myself.

If I truly didn't care, I wouldn't comment at all.

Also, I'm embarrassed about my gratuitous and excessive use of mild invective. While it was not directed at any particular member, it is still obnoxious and again, something I wish to see less of on ATS.

It's easy to forget, but ATS really is a “family” discussion forum, and when I forget that, the shame is mine.

I could try to make excuses: it was late, I had been driving all night, it was dark, I didn't see the signs, took the wrong exit off I-19, whatever.

I do remember talking about this same topic some months back, I think it was on ATSNN at the time, and I do get an uneasy sense of deja vu from all this.

However, that's my problem, not yours, and my little hissy fit won't solve anything anyway.

I know I said “sorry” a lot in the offending post, and in what may seem to be a sarcastic tone, but I really was sorry, and I still am.

I guess I'm just one sorry individual.

I am especially sorry to any fellow member put off or offended by my previous post.

That in particular is something I don't come to ATS for, though my meltdown above would suggest otherwise.

While a little drama spices things up now and then, the kind of drama I brought to this thread is something I am sure we would all love to see less of here.

No apology is meaningful without a commitment to change. While I cannot honestly promise that I won't slip up again, I can and do promise that I will try my best not to.

Very sincerely,

Majic

Why the CIA bashing? While I agree that some of their techniques may be brutal and even torturous, I haven't seen anyone suggest an alternative. The US is a big country with a big military. We represent things that a lot of countries hate us for. There are many people out there who would love to see us fail and fall. There are also many out there who would like to assist that process.

How would you suggest that the CIA go about finding these people and stopping them? Or do you not care, as long as our CIA conducts themselves in a kinder, gentler warfare.

Originally posted by GlobalDisorder
Because your out there fighting to remove these vicous acts.
Your the ones screaming democracy, remove the regime
Your the ones telling the world YOUR NOT DOING THESE Things.
That is why its wrong.

And your the only ones holding people UNJUSTLY, withuot trial.
Descrating their relgious book, beating them, the cr*p from Abugrahib.

And your doing it in the name of Freedom
My A$$

Could Not Agree More with You!

Thats called Hypochrisy - and I dont mean the Bend named that.

Love Your Signature!

Peace with You Brother.

So what's your point? I dont understand what your big problem with the US is? or is it because your country's involved and you disapprove? The actual incidents of abuse are actually far fewer than alleged by critics of the US. Granted there have been cases, but there were dealt with.

hey Souljah, would u be mad if America beat up Osama bin Laden, i mean u be crying for him right?, like noooooo dont beat up my hero Osama .

souljah and others like him dont know, they only know that they have been taught to hate america. For what reason in reality? i dont know.

Originally posted by darkelf
Why the CIA bashing? While I agree that some of their techniques may be brutal and even torturous, I haven't seen anyone suggest an alternative. The US is a big country with a big military. We represent things that a lot of countries hate us for. There are many people out there who would love to see us fail and fall. There are also many out there who would like to assist that process.

How would you suggest that the CIA go about finding these people and stopping them? Or do you not care, as long as our CIA conducts themselves in a kinder, gentler warfare.

Before the World War 2 there were several International Laws written, which the Nazi Germany broke several times in order to maintain and keep their military and overall supremacy over the other nations.

Isnt that in essence the same the USA are doing Today?

There are International Laws, which the USA is supposed to Defend and to Protect - but instead they are bending them and breaking them all over.

How can you talk one thing and do another?

How can you say: "You cant do that, because its Wrong - but I can do it, because I have the Power to say So!"

Turning one eye blind all the times.

I know the Intelligence Agencies around the world use all sorts of techniques to interrogate and to "extract information" - and have been doing that for centuries.

Its the - By All Means Necessary - tactic, that is used by the Superior Power all the times.

OK, IF the CIA has to do this in that way, at least they could do is come clear with everybody, and say they are.

But that would result in a real worse situation for the CIA, which is already in a very bad situation.

I remember CIA supporting fascist regimes in Southern America - creating terrorists cells, which killed thousands, while the so-called America World Police turns one eye blind. Instead CIA sells Coke (and I dont mean the Drink) and uses the money to sell weapons to Iran.

I remember CIA funding the Afganistan Resistance in the Russian-Afganistan War - creating, funding and arming the Mujahedeen in order to fight back the Russians. While the Arms went from port of Karachi to Afganistan, Opium was smuggled back to be sold to the Western World.

Today CIA kidnaps, tortures, breaks another set of International Laws - and again "Its ALLRIGHT".

"We Can Do IT - You Cant!"

Decades of Hypochrisy.

Just to "Keep the World Safe"? Just to Protect Us against the "Evil Terrorists"?

Who is going to PROTECT Us from the CIA?



[edit on 1/6/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by deltaboy
hey Souljah, would u be mad if America beat up Osama bin Laden, i mean u be crying for him right?, like noooooo dont beat up my hero Osama

.

Why Beat up Your Friend in this Tragedy called "War on Terrorism"?

You seem not to understand how this works.

Terrorists are Closer that You think....

[edit on 1/6/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
souljah and others like him dont know, they only know that they have been taught to hate america. For what reason in reality? i dont know.

Who do you Think tought Us That?

You think we Learned that in Schools?

Public Meetings?

From our Newspapers and TV News?

From our Political Leaders?

From our Religious Leaders?

You two guys are Hilarious!



[edit on 1/6/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Souljah
OK, IF the CIA has to do this in that way, at least they could do is come clear with everybody, and say they are.

Because it's the CIA!
Man, I wish you had just a clue as to how our intel agencies are run. Just the slightest hint would help you out tremendously.

I remember CIA supporting fascist regimes in Southern America - creating terrorists cells, which killed thousands, while the so-called America World Police turns one eye blind. Instead CIA sells Coke (and I dont mean the Drink) and uses the money to sell weapons to Iran.

I remember CIA funding the Afganistan Resistance in the Russian-Afganistan War - creating, funding and arming the Mujahedeen in order to fight back the Russians. While the Arms went from port of Karachi to Afganistan, Opium was smuggled back to be sold to the Western World.

Today CIA kidnaps, tortures, breaks another set of International Laws - and again "Its ALLRIGHT".

You could NEVER prove any of that stuff you just said unless any of that was officially released to the public.
When you see on different internet sites saying the CIA did this, the CIA did that and don't provide the declassified documents to prove it....don't be so gullible in believing it. Chances are very high most of the info is incorrect.

Who is going to PROTECT Us from the CIA?

lol

par·a·noi·a
n.
1. A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
Because it's the CIA!

You could NEVER prove any of that stuff you just said unless any of that was officially released to the public.

Whatever Man.

I am Sick & Tired of your constant Denial and just like "your fellow Masons" tactic of, "Where is the Proof, Where is the Proof!"

Belive what you want to belive - and so will I.

You can belive that Your CIA is an innocent and civilized organisation - but I belive that they are more of a Mafia - dealing with Drugs, Gunz and Illegal Torture.

Take it or Leave it.

Originally posted by Souljah
I am Sick & Tired of your constant Denial and just like "your fellow Masons" tactic of, "Where is the Proof, Where is the Proof!"

1. Did you just call me a Mason?

I'm not.

2. Of course I'm going to ask for proof. What good is saying something if you can't back it up?
What kind of crap is that?

You can belive that Your CIA is an innocent and civilized organisation - but I belive that they are more of a Mafia - dealing with Drugs, Gunz and Illegal Torture.

1. I never said they were all innocent. If I did please point it out to me so I can correct that.

2. I believe what I believe because I know what's going on. You believe what you believe because of hearsay from conspiricy/anti-CIA/anti-government sites....

But you're right, if living in ignorance helps you sleep at night....so be it.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
2. I believe what I believe because I know what's going on. You believe what you believe because of hearsay from conspiricy/anti-CIA/anti-government sites....

The Article, from which I took this Information is from New York Times.

Anti-Goverment-Conspiracy-AntiCIA Newspaper?

Please!

But you're right, if living in ignorance helps you sleep at night....so be it.

Whatever Works for You.

I rather spend the Night looking for Truth, because its not Allright with me, whats going on in the World Today.