Mastor Of The Closet

Actually rahboni the pope and vatican have remitted the anti-masonry bull's of long past.

It is now only Catholics who still believe the Church is against masonry, that oppose masonry

Hey rahboni is that a pic of you on those drums? looks like drums...lol.

Yes...that is me...guess I should post it in that other thread...

I know that the U.S. has tons of secret societies. But Freemasons are by far the most influential. Also Freemasons are the most secretive society. There for It is most resonable to put them under suspicion.

Drums, drums, where talking about drums. This thread isn't about playing drums. If you can't take these topics seriously, I'd recommend not posting here. All you do is change the subject and bash the topic which was started! I'm fed up with this non-sense! FM cut it out and stop swerving to the side you ignorant little boy.

If you would like to debate the topic then do so. DO NOT continue to bs your way through these threads!

oconnection

You are not really tring to make any friends, are you?

You are offending the people who could give you leads to reasonable information you may seek.

I suspect you may have dried up that potential by now, with your manner, but that was your choice.

I'm not here to make friends MA. I'm here to discuss serious matters. I wasn't the only person complaining about FM's misdirection in the conversations.

If I make friend in the process that's fine. But it is not on the top of my list of importance.

As long as someone continues to weave around the point of the debate. I will continue to raise the question there seriousness on the matter at hand!

[Edited on 8-8-2003 by oconnection]

I'm not changing the subject, I was simply making a post completely non-involved with the thread (thus not detracting from the topic at hand), to brother rahboni as to if the avatar was of him.

The topic may continue, if you do not continue to make a big deal out of being off topic

Philosophy is the greatest, and I would agree that Masonic study and practice could and would be philosophical in nature as well as scientific. I'm sure the people involved for the right reasons instead of the beer are also the ones what actually "get it". Freemasonry is extremely interesting and hold a vast wealth in knowlege and theory that I do love to study, although since I would never join for personal reasons I know there will be some details I'll never get to enjoy pondering.

A quick question about what was said about the church being against Freemsonry. I haven't checked into it yet myself to know for sure, but from reading and other non related studying I kinda had the impression that all these great Cathedrals and Catholic Churches and Temples were constructed and are rich with Masonic symbols and design. The Notre-Dame of Paris for example, I don't recall what the exact construction history is off hand, and I know it has been changed from the original design a bit, but I think you can see the root of such handy work once you know what you're looking for. Am I right? If so why would the Church be so against Freemasonry when it seems that it has done so much for it, even if some work has been behind the scenes some of the time?

About the Churches, Gothic Cathedrals built up until 1400s, (last cathedral built by Freemasons was St. Paul's Cathedral in London), were built by Freemasons, not sure about symbolism in it.

The church didn't know Masonry existed, no one did, until 1717, when Masonry went public with the Grand Lodge of England.

Before that people would have assumed that a stone worker was just some dude from a local guild, working on stone...with no connections to the guy in the neighboring country.

And they had no clue what people like Elias Ashmole were talking about in their Journals.

In the 1800s the Church decided Masonry was acting to reduce the Church's "power" and in some places like Ireland this is still strongly believed.

As for if the Church has finally removed any harsh feelings against Masonry, I remember hearing and reading it somewhere, I don't think I'm confusing it with the church allowing harry potter

It's simple Mo. The reason the church is againt Freemasonry is because it's a new age occult.

Traditionally Freemasonry is extremly anti Cathlic. Thus is the reason why the pope said if your a Freemason your out of the church. Not only cathlics, just about every arm of christianty advises not to join. Everyone except the prodestiant. Interesting, hmmmm.

I've read things from both sides. I've spent I great deal of my time to come to this conclussion. Freemasonry is new age, occultic and anti christian.

Oh ok, that's why me and two others are both saying the same thing. Your right Freemason, were just dreaming this up

Take a look in the thread "Masonic Monitor Handbook ".
Take a look how FM is misdirecting the topic through out the post. But your right were all crazy

[Edited on 8-8-2003 by oconnection]

There was a time when the various Christian religions were just 'new age cults' some of the many splits in Judaism into different sects.

Just so happened these are the ones left.

Freemasonry is an occult because it survives by hiding. By keeping secrets. By definition Freemasonry is an occult.

Dictonary def of a occult :
(Subject) hidden and difficult to see; "an occult fracture"; "occult blood in the stool"
(Verb) hide from view; "The lids were occulting her eyes"
(Verb) become concealed or hidden from view or have its light extinguished; "The beam of light occults every so often"

Freemasonry exist on this basis.

[Edited on 8-8-2003 by oconnection]

Freemasonry and it's history can in no way be considered New Age. Saying it's Anti-Christian is ok to say, but then only from a Christian Viewpoint. Saying Freemasonry is Occultish is fine, but then again you could say just as easily say Christianity or any Religion for that matter is a Cult too. But New Age just isn't literally possible unless you change what is to be considered New and Old. I mean is Paganism New Age then? Or what about Buddhism? Could Druids be considered New Age? If so then that would push the Date back so far that everything would be New Age, except maybe Fire Worship.

Granted that Freemasonry Officially was established Publicly until "1717" (according to FM's post above) that date has little to do with the actual true begining of Freemasonry.

Originally posted by oconnection
Freemasonry is an occult because it survives by hiding. By keeping secrets. By definition Freemasonry is an occult.

How secret are they? Their membership is open (iv'e found websites of local lodges that give membership rosters complete with pictures) their meeting places are well marked. You could argue that their rituals are secret, but the truth is that anyone who wanted to make the effort could buy them at used bookstores or on e-bay.

FREEMASONRY AND THE NEW AGE MOVEMENT

There is an organization in existance today that has among its membership Political leaders from the most powerful nations on the face of the earth. It also has among its membership religious leaders from the world's leading Religions. The rich and the influential from many lands all bow the knee at the altar of Freemasonry.

Albert Churchward came to the correct conclusion in his book, The Arcana of Freemasonry, when he stated:

Can the unity of the world be accomplished by Freemasons? Yes; and by Freemasons only.

Indeed, what other organization on earth is in a position like Freemasonry to usher in the New World Order?

Freemasonry itself claims to be the universal religion where all religions can worship at the same altar.

From :

The true Mason is not creed-bound. He realizes with the divine illumination of his lodge that as a Mason his religion must be universal: Christ, Buddha or Mohammed, the name means little, for he recognizes only the light and not the bearer. He worships at every shrine, bows before every altar, whether in temple, mosque or cathedral, realizing with his truer understanding the oneness of all spiritual truth.

From Freemasonry and the Ancient Gods, by J. S. M. Ward:

Freemasonry is, I contend, the mightiest force in the world. All that is best in religion and nationality is united with all that is best in internationalism.

From Morals and Dogma, by Albert Pike:



It is the universal, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted it in the heart of universal humanity.......................................

Masonry is a worship; but one in which all civilized men can unite;.......................

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion.

From Symbolism of Freemsaonry or Mystic Masonry, by J. D. Buck:

Masonry is the Universal Religion only because, and only so long as it embraces all religions.

From Ancient Mystic Oriental Masonry, by Dr. R. Swinburne Clymer:

Mystic Masonry is not only the key to the religion taught to all men in all ages from the very beginning of conscious life up to the present, but it holds the keys to these religious and is, in fact, the very repository of religion itself.....It has for its object the uniting of mankind into a Universal Brotherhood.

From The Spirit of Masonry, by Foster Bailey:

A revitalised Masonry, made up of Masons true to their obligations, and realising the Mystic Tie that binds them all together in one true brotherhood, would also provide a platform so universal that it would meet the need of thinkers of all kinds and of every school of thought. It would thus not only meet a religious need by providing a universal religion, but would also satisfy the mental need felt by all broad-minded thinkers at this time.

The Bible says that in the time before the return of our Lord Jesus Christ many will turn away from sound doctrine that leads to Godliness. Jesus said:

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:10-13 KJV

The apostle Paul said:

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

I Timothy 4:1 KJV

3 Let no man decieve you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

II Thessalonians 2:3 KJV

Matthew Henry, the Godly expositor, commented wisely on these words of the apostle Paul.

By this apostasy we are not to understand a defection in the state, or from civil government, but in spiritual or religious matters, from sound doctrine, instituted worship and church government, and a holy life. The apostle speaks of some very great apostasy, not only of some converted Jews or Gentiles, but such as should give occasion to the revelation or rise of anti-christ, that man of sin.

Freemasonry has long run rampant in the liberal Protestant denominations.

But now much to their shame, Freemasonry has made deep in-roads into many churches that claim to be Bible-believing Fundamentalists. The Feburary 1993 issue of The Scottish Rite Journal featured two prominent Baptists on its cover: Abner V. McCall, 33 Mason, President Emeritus of Baylor University and Herbert H. Reynolds, 33 Mason, Current President of Baylor University.

One possible reason for Masonry's strong presence at Baylor is because of the following fact published in the Scottish Rite Journal, February 1993:

In recognition of Freemasonry's historic tie to Baylor Univeristy, the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, Southern Jurisdiction, has contributed over the years more than $100,000 to Baylor's J. M. Dawson Chair of Separation of Church and State.

Seperation of church and state has become the battle cry of the A.C.L.U. and Gay and Lesbian groups that are trying to drive even the memory of God out of our government. Many modern churches have made the grave mistake of not drawing the line and keeping Freemasonry out of the church.

Another Freemason, Pat M. Neff 32 Mason was a President of Baylor University, Vice President of the Southern Baptist Convention, Grand Master of Masons In Texas, and Governer of Texas. He was a prime example of how Freemasons are often influential in Education, Religion, Freemasonry, and Politics.

IS THERE A MASONIC PLAN FOR A NEW WORLD ORDER ?

Freemasonry's greatest philosopher, Manly P. Hall, tells us in his book The Secret Destiny of America, that the idea of a one world government has been the goal of secret societies for hundreds of years.

From The Secret Destiny of America, by Manly P. Hall:

Today's thinking toward a democratic world state is neither a new trend nor an accidental circumstance; the work of setting up the background of knowledge necessary to the establishing of enlightened democracy among all nations has been carried on for many hundreds of years by secret societies.

One of the secret societies that led the way in promoting the New World Order was the Bavarian Illumanati. These men were Masons that formed a secret inner group inside of the Masonic order to work for a One World Government. It was their stated desire to destroy all existing governments and religions and to replace them with a One World Government and a One World Religious system.

From the Writings of the Illumanati (1780):

It is necessary to establish a univerasal regime and empire over the whole world.

This secret society was officially formed by Adam Weishaupt, professor of Canon Law at Ingolstadt University, on May 1, 1776. As the evil plans of the Illuminati began to leak out, brave men took a stand and raised their voices in protest. One such man was John Robinson, a professor of Natural Philosophy at Edinburgh University, and General Secretary of the Royal Society of Edinburgh. In his book, Proofs of a Conspiracy, which was originally published in 1798, Robinson documented how Masonry served as the "nursery school" for the Illuminati.

It was then discovered that this and several associated Lodges were the nursery or preparation-school for another Order of Masons, who called themselves the ILLUMINATED, and that the express aim of this Order was to abolish Christianity and overturn all civil government.

It is interesting how writers in this century will still use the term

"ILLuminati".

From The Genius of Freemasonry, by J.D. Buck 32 :

If the sincere and thoughtful Mason would "take notice" of the symbolism and the use made everywhere in the Lodge of the word "Light", and remember that the real Initiates are called also "the Illuminati"

From The Spirit of Masonry, by Foster Bailey, 32 :

These master Masons, to whom T.G.A.O.T.U. has given the design and Who are familiar with the tracing board of the G.M. on high, are called by many names and are known at different times by various appellations. They can be referred to as Christ and his Church--that band of disciples who follow in the footsteps and work under the inspiration of the great Carpenter of Nazareth. They can be known by others as the Masters of the Wisdom for They are skilled in the divine ways and have mastered the arts and sciences which Their fellowmen have yet to master. They are the Dispenser of Light and to Them has been given, by virtue of Their achievement, the privilege and the authority to pronounce the great Masonic formula: 'Let there be light' and to evoke the response: 'And there was LIGHT'

They are therefore sometimes known as the Illuminati and can direct the searchlight of truth wherever its beams are needed to guide the pilgrim on his way.

Alice A. Bailey, New Age leader and wife of Foster Bailey, wrote in her book, From Bethlehem to Calvary:

The illuminati have ever led the race forward; the knowers, mystics and saints have ever revealed to us the heights of racial and individual possibility.

"The Plan" to unite all religions and all nations is called 'God's plan' in the September 1950 issue of The New Age Magazine. The New Age Magazine was the appropriate title of the official magazine of the Scottish Rite. The magazine's title was changed in 1990 after some of the issues and the future plans of the New Age Movement became public. It is now called The Scottish Rite Journal of Freemasonry Southern Jurisdiction.

From The New Age Magazine, September 1950:

God's plan is dedicated to the unification of all races, religions and creeds. This plan, dedicated to the new order of things, is to make all things new--a new nation, a new race, a new civilization and a new religion, a nonsectarian religion that has already been recognized and called the religion of "The Great Light."

I think it also shows the history of Freemasonry going back so far that giving it a label of "New Age" is wrong by definition. An example of the abuse of "New Age" and it's meaning that is used for all sorts of things these days. The result of constant propaganda which has lead to the link in peoples minds when they hear or read the words "New Age" to think of it as a bunch of wacky hippies, crystals and/or some fantasy cult following of the small minded. Therefor label anything as "New Age" and it's automatically discredited. Especially with those following any established Religion and their policy of "Blind Faith" dedication.

New Age
adj.
Of or relating to a complex of spiritual and consciousness-raising movements originating in the 1980s and covering a range of themes from a belief in spiritualism and reincarnation to advocacy of holistic approaches to health and ecology.
Of, relating to, or resembling New Age music.

Not to say your post is completely invalid oconnection, and I'm not trying to drag Religion through the mud...Just trying to illustrate that "New Age" is not an accurate label for Freemasonry.

[Edited on 8-8-2003 by mOjOm]

Well atleast you admitt that Freemason is a form of religion. Most people would say it isn't a religion. When the evidence points else where.

oconnection,
To me Freemasonry has all the required elements to be a Religion, yet those who are Mason's disagree for certain reasons. I am still not sure by definition how it is different either, but I'm sure it's some small element of language and word interpretation so it's not that important what it's label is anyway.

I can respect the Masonic Tradition in some ways just like Most Religions and Even Occult Followings or Eastern Philosophies to some degree, but wouldn't ever include myself as being a member of any. They all have values and pitfalls and should be studied with that in mind be each person on their own for a common universal lesson to be understood. Taoism though at it's very begining and most simple is probably as close to the truth as humanly possible. I say that because there is no real way to teach it or write it down or even identify it's true meaning in any way. To try and express it or describe it only works to confuse what it is. Which is why the lessons that try are always so cryptic and paradoxical, like "One hand clapping" or "Know nothing, to Know everything" or "You will find everything when you stop looking"...But even that is at it's root begining, cause Taoism has changed over time because of certain Rulers, which has only resulted in more misunderstanding.