Just what is a conservative ?

When I think of conservative values I think of small government , freedom of choice and reduced government . I also think of consertives as wanting to impose morals on society (e.g. abortion) but it dosnt quite add up dose it?

Some consertives seem to strive for ideals that never existed (the husband and wife with the two kids and a white fence.)
Is there even such a thing as a consertive or is the word consertive misplaced in the political sense?

Heres what I would define a consertive to be.
Lets society decide what is right and wrong.
Reduces size of government thou privatsation and no pointless laws.
Encougers free enterpise.
Low taxs and welfare for those in geniune (private or government)
People should make there own way in life thou hardwork.

Perhaps the word consertive is like the word liberal it is thrown around to often and never matchs the facts.

ed. spelling in title

[edit on 31-7-2005 by DontTreadOnMe]

I was just reading the book "The Right Nation" which dissects the facts about the conservative movement in America. In the introduction, authors Micklethwait and Wooldridge say from p19-20...

"Talk to reflective conservatives about what makes their country so special and they usually mention four things. The first is the constitution [patriotism]. ... The second feature is geography [America is bigger]. ... A third aspect of the United States is reinvention [economic speriority]. ... [and] a fourth feature is moralism [Christian-like virtues]."

I think these are good blanket statements when speaking of traditional conservatives (Republicans).

However, I also think that conservatives are slightly more hypocritical than their more "liberal" counterparts. Each of those four foundations above can be counter pointed:

Though the conservatives value the constitution and constantly reference it for gun rights (which I see no problem), they seem to forget that the constituancy amongst our founding fathers was that the state maintain a separation from the church; conservatives seem to not pay attention to the clause in the constitution which says America will author a separation of church and state.

The conservatives also seem to enjoy the fact that America is big and bountyful, so that they may have acres or hundreds of acres of land to call their own. I have a hard time using the word "conservative" here to describe these would-be conservatives, as this glutony (being one of the seven deadly sins) ultimatley leads to gross consumption.

The same could be applied to the conservatives' attitute toward enterprise. Their pro-capitalist and pro economic growth attitutes only catalyze consumption, materialism, and hence, pop-culture which they will call "liberal".

Another hypocrisy I would like to mention about conservatives is their enduring support for war efforts, while their antagonism to big-government and taxes. Obviously, big wars come with more government and more taxes - so their just being passionate, but shortsighted here.

Obviously their morals are based around Christian virtues. There is only one problem with this: The conservatives' Christian morals influence public policy.

So what is a conservative? If you look at statistics, most college graduates vote Democratic (a more complex platform of hypocrisy). I think that the conservative base in America is generally easily propagated to and easily subject to rhetoric (hence their staunch, unquestionable belief in the Christian doctrine).

But on a closing note, I would like to point out some things that the conservatives have right.

-Pro Nationalism
-Pro Guns

Other than that, they're blinded by their own doctrine.

Heres what I would define a consertive to be.

Good list. Odds are that nowadays if someone is called conservative they're almost guaranteed to not be conservative.

Conservativism makes sense, it's logical. It's, however, not what we're seeing right now.

en.wikipedia.org...

Conservatism is any of several historically-related political philosophies or political ideologies. There are also a number of Conservative political parties in various countries. They usually identify with the political right.

While the intellectual roots of conservatism date back centuries, within the past two decades conservatism has become a dominant governing political philosophy in the United States and other Western nations. This has significantly changed the world's political and economic character.

In the United States, the political ascendancy of conservatism is widely considered one of the most important political developments of the late 20th century and early 21st century. Many associate the rise of conservatism with increased opposition to the Soviet Union and global communism, lower taxes, and popular support for stronger social values and smaller government.

The recent ascendancy of conservatism in the U.S. and elsewhere is attributable to several factors. One of the most prominent of these factor has been the emergence of an influential and generally unified group of conservative intellectuals, politicians, writers, and media personalities whose work has changed public opinion. For a list of these prominent conservatives, see list of conservatives.

there are more on conservatism but that is wat much of the definitions of the meaning of conservative that u can find.

Originally posted by Bly Magister

The same could be applied to the conservatives' attitute toward enterprise. Their pro-capitalist and pro economic growth attitutes only catalyze consumption, materialism, and hence, pop-culture which they will call "liberal".

The concept of personal property ownership is pretty fundamental to the Western concept of law. (Cicero said it; I didn't make that up.)

You sound sort of "anti-property here." Free enterprise and Capital go hand in hand. Ever since marx, that has been pretty fundamental economic logic, even if capitalism eventually drowns the entrepenurial spirit.

Do you think it's immoral to want to own your own home? If you talk to millions of Mexicans coming to the US, that is one of their primary aims. Are they immoral for wanting to OWN things?


On another front, you seem to be pretty concerned (like many "progressives") that conservatives want to legislate their (Christian) morality. I know you probably won't be able to hear this, but the rising tide of Conservatism in the USA is the product of millions of Americans feeling like someone else's morality has already been forced down their throats.

For instance, if you believed abortion was immoral, then you might resent the fact that your pregnant daughter could, at one time in many states, go and get an abortion at public expense, using your own tax dollars, and in spite of your refusing to help her perform what you believed to be a reprehensible act. At that point, the taxpayer begins to feel like the government always legislates somebody's morality, and it might as well be "mine" for a change.

If Rove and Cheney are evil geniuses, they are still geniuses for tapping that vast pool of collective unhappiness that Liberals have never addressed. And abortion is just the beginning. Pick any topic. Taxes. Welfare. Banning the free exercise of religion and free speech (the valedictorian's graduation speech in Texas. I'm always amazed how liberals missed the seminal importance of that suit.). Gay marriage. Legalization. The list goes on.

If the conservatives have picked up a lot of support, they did so by speaking to people, millions, who were being left out of America's political life.

There was the conservatism of the '80's under Reagan and there is the conservatism of now, under Bush.. it's bigTime different. Reagan was the true conservative. Bush doesn't know his hat from a hole in the ground. He's as big government internationlist as they come. Hardly conservative.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
There was the conservatism of the '80's under Reagan and there is the conservatism of now, under Bush.. it's bigTime different. Reagan was the true conservative. Bush doesn't know his hat from a hole in the ground. He's as big government internationlist as they come. Hardly conservative.

[comments deleted to avoid offence.)



[edit on 31-7-2005 by dr_strangecraft]

What I wanna know is what comments you deleted.

Givit to us.. we're not weak kneed here...

I said some fairly hideous thing about how maybe you thought the only good conservative is a dead one.

by any definition, other than the "movements" definition of him. Out of control spending does not align with the definitions. All hat no cattle - I know it applies, I just don't know the genesis of the phrase!
He crafted the "message" with his B movie actors training, but it never was the soundbyte in application.

Today's conservatives = Libertarians.

Republicans abdicated that auto connection with the endorsement of the policies we've seen over the last 5 years.

BT is right; today's conservatives are not conservatives. They are merely Christians. Somehow, moral and global policies are about the only thing conservatives talk, know, or vote about.

This is in stark contrast to us, the Libertarian (and I'd add the Constitutionalists).

Prime example- I was watching TV, something I don't do a lot of thankfully, and I saw a promo for a new TV sitcom (seen one seen them all). His line was something like this "It was easier to be a father in the 50's. All you had to do was have a job and not beat your kids."

That struck me as very sad, but true in a way most don't catch because they don't care about much between what affects them directly and National policy.

These days you have a much harder time raising a family on one income. Having a job isn't enough after taxes.

I've heard that after all is considered, we are taxes about 50% of our income. This is outrageous, and has created a situation where we can no longer sustain ourselves as the need for public assistance increases while the paying public gets hammered harder and harder.

The numbers just don't add up to long range success.

Problem 2- is that in the 50's it simply wasn't possible to live so far outside your means that it would take 5-10 years of gross income to buy yourself out of debt. Credit is something that has simply infected all facets of our lives, allowing us to live more comfortably, if not more dangerously.

We sit around in our loaned houses and drive our loaned cars with little to no ability to curtail real problems should they arise.

We seem to be setting up the cards, but don't think they'll fall.

Today's conservatives could not comprehend short term upset for long term gain because we simply can not absorb the short term problems, and we are certainly not willing to rock the boat.

Democrats aren't liberals much either though. They have become progressives, although I know many true liberals still exist (as many do here).

The party line and the us vs. them attitude has lead us to polarize the political landscape, virtually eliminating the ability for third parties to grab a foothold (well, that and the truly un-American practice that the Dems and the Reps have undertaken of purposely aiming to eliminate such "threats" from elections.

It's becoming a sham, if it isn't already.

Be prepared.

The only answer is to hope for the best and teach, but prepare for the worst and buy your way out of debt as soon as you can. Not to mention create some measure of cushion financially in things that retain value.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

BT is right; today's conservatives are not conservatives. They are merely Christians. Somehow, moral and global policies are about the only thing conservatives talk, know, or vote about.

I agree witht the bulk of your post -- you're "spot on" as concerns personal as well as government debt and denial. But what exactly does this introductory paragraph mean???

Specifically, the phrase "they are merely Christians."

Do you think that Christians cannot be genuine conservatives? In your own post, you lament the two-party system, and the way it forces people into a false duality.

Do you think that Christians should not be involved in politics? Or that they should not vote according to their own personal sense of right and wrong?

To this Christian, the paragraph sounds like a put-down, and fairly prejudiced. Would you say the same thing about any other group? Would you say that Latinos are not really conservatives--that they are "merely" mexicans?

If lots of Christians have turned to the Republican party, it is certainly because they were made to feel welcome there.

The church I attend seems to be split evenly between Democrats and Republicans. Yet my district voted pro-republican 80% in the last election, even in the local races. There's a reason for that.

Have a look at another political thread, one I started called "the only Dem who can carry 2008." I was posting about a particular democrat who has a HUGE attraction for a lot of Christians, regardless of the fact that he's a democrat. Notice how quickly I was told to "mind your own business."

It's undeniable that a lot of Christians happen to feel like they are unwelcome among liberal circles, or even in the whole democratic party. I think the same is true among libertarians as well. I have posted on objectivist websites, and gotten the same kind of reaction.

I think long term, the constitution party will reap the benefits. In the short term, the republicans will.

Part of the "problem" for liberals has been alienating their own base. A lot of hispanic Americans are socially liberal, but also Christians. In my part of Texas, Bush's results were higher in hispanic districts than in Ango ones. And for precisely the reason Bout Time points out: Bush is actually not that conservative. He's just energized a particular group (many of whom are not conservatives, either). That group didn't feel welcome elsewhere.

Doc:

Pardon me if you felt slighted by the wording, perhaps it could have been better. I speak from the vantage point of a conservative Christian; although the point was that while one might (and sometimes does) influence the other; I generally keep them apart by choice, as do most people by simple function.

The point was not so much a putdown of Christians, because I can tell you they need some heat, but it was really more to the marketing of the GOP to really capture the religious (read as Christian) vote.

Personally, I think it should intuitively obvious to the casual observer, that the main focus of the current GOP (and subsequently the GOP voters) is either moral issues or policy regarding those who do not come from here or live other places and their governments (to use a ton of words to say little-sorry, I'm tired today).

I find this to be grossly negligent to the conservative base and philosophy in general, but it has not been different previous to Bush, but to a lesser degree.

This focus is disturbing to anyone using their brain, due to the fact that we are allowing policy to be made without our knowledge or approval, OR we are letting them off the hook for something so simple as treating our southern border in a reasonably similar way as the Mexican government does (not that I advocate abuse in any way).

It was no put down, aside from the larger put down to the bulk of the American people, lazy idiot box zombies that they are (at least to a greater degree as time progresses).

I find myself deeply concerned, and can pretty much tell you that at 28 I know we will not last, or at the least remain in a state that is fundamentally NOT American, the span of my lifetime.

No offense intended.

to paraphrase P.T. Barnum.

Now, that being said, I can also vouch as a Christian that there are plenty of folks who call themselves one thing and act another way. And a lot of people, from all walks of life, who give more thought to their selection of internet service provider than to their selection of governing officials.

But then, that's the thrill of democracy: to choose our own oppressors.

As far as worrying about the USA, you'd be surpised by how low we're sinking, until you travel around and see that the rest of the world is busy trying to "keep up with the Joneses" by following us over the edge of a cliff.


Maybe, just maybe, americans can afford to be intellectually lazy right now. Maybe philosophical questions are more for periods of ease, rather than the hour of peril. Things were pretty black and white on the 8th of December back in 1941, too.

Perhaps they are. Last time I was in Europe was back in 1999-2000 (lived in Iceland and traveled between there and Germany, Norway, and Scotland (briefly unfortunately). I understand why they seem to be doing it (or at least a logical reason is) that they are all subject to the natural ebb and flow that our nation inflicts upon the world market.

Considering almost all global trade is done in dollars and oil is sold in Dollars, the world is pretty much tracking if they are able, although for good or ill remains to be seen.

I think the major problem with us, and not many other places (Japan, China, Europe, etc), is that they have been rehashed or reconstituted once or more since our inception.

Human constructions and institutions need to be redone or greatly revised every so often, or they will fall to their own corruption and/or girth.

I'm a Christian conservative--that's why I abandoned the GOP!

Seriously, nowadays the GOP is too far to the left for my liking, which is why I joined the Constitution Party.

I'm pro-life (anti-abortion), pro-death penalty, pro-gun, anti-sodomy, etc.

And morality should be and is legislated. If it weren't, we'd have a lot more rapes, murders, and thefts. I think what keeps a lot of people from committing crimes is the prospect of punishment, unlike other people who don't commit crimes because it's wrong to do so.

LOL! I was just about to post, adding a link to the Constitution Party so that readers could see what conservativsm really is, but I see you beat me to it.

As you said, morality is, in fact, legislated. That's what makes us a nation of laws, or at least it used to do that. A nation shouldn't change because morality ebbs and flows; there should be an anchor.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
LOL! I was just about to post, adding a link to the Constitution Party so that readers could see what conservativsm really is, but I see you beat me to it.

Gotta have a link though: Constitution Party

As you said, morality is, in fact, legislated. That's what makes us a nation of laws, or at least it used to do that. A nation shouldn't change because morality ebbs and flows; there should be an anchor.

Yep. And Bush's "culture of life" excuse, as Chuck Baldwin said, is like putting your finger in the wind and seeing which way it's blowing--and it shouldn't even matter which way it's blowing--you do what's right and never mind what everyone else says.

I also call shenanigans on Jeb Bush's "nation of laws" spiel concerning Terri Schiavo. In case Jeb forgot, our laws are supposed to protect innocent people.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
BT is right; today's conservatives are not conservatives. They are merely Christians. Somehow, moral and global policies are about the only thing conservatives talk, know, or vote about.

I know many conservatives that aren't christian and that strongly believe in seperation of church and state... They are however blind when it comes to making sure their elected conservative government is keep ing to the conservative doctrine...

They fail to scrutinize the way they do towards liberals, and turn their backs on paying attention to their elected government when they get in, yet defend them tooth and nail despite the hypocrisy, because it's an apparent conservative government.

The second or third poster had it right when it comes to hypocrisy of those who vote conservative.

The same could be applied to the conservatives' attitute toward enterprise. Their pro-capitalist and pro economic growth attitutes only catalyze consumption, materialism, and hence, pop-culture which they will call "liberal".

Another hypocrisy I would like to mention about conservatives is their enduring support for war efforts, while their antagonism to big-government and taxes. Obviously, big wars come with more government and more taxes - so their just being passionate, but shortsighted here.


this is dangerous and ignorant, and they don't want to recognize... They label liberals, cut them up, insult them, and demean them because they see all this (and liberals do the same thing when they get in office)... It's frustrating for me because I live with one and he doesn't like to recognize these things, but you put on hannity and o'reilly and the guy starts sucking his thumb and nodding in agreement all the time..

You can't speak, you can't point out facts, you can't have a logical conversation with them and when you get them in a corner their just as bad as liberals, they both freeking ignore you, or get mad, or deflect and distort the points... It's a sick sick game, and sadly they've all been indoctrinated to be divided and think their right.. Why can't these people stand on middle ground? I'm not perfect but at least I try, at least I try to make the effort to see both sides, and embrace both ideologies, you don't have to just be one way... it's just such horse# and it's killing this countries foundations.

True Lies.

I don't normally get that deep into what ails our country, but you pretty much said what I've been thinking for a while now. Sure I say it here and there, but never to any real extent as it will be supported for how if trashes the opposition and rediculed for how it trashes our own side.

I've been labeled Liberal so many times it's stupid, when I am more conservative than conservatives and actually know WHY I feel the way I do.

I've been close to bowing out of the political scene due to the rampant ignorance and jackassery of our political landscape.

But I stay.