The end of universe

Originally posted by Plumbo
Well I differ. It's got a center.

Originally posted by Amorymeltzer
Where? From every vantage point in the universe, the rest of the universe is moving away from it.

There's another and more proper way to imagine the universe, Amory.
If you're judging by stellar distances expanding over time, this same concept can be inverted with the central celestial sphere expanding.
All the red/blue shifts determined(which are only visible from earth) are mistaken because of the glass causing chromatic abberation.

With the balloon, this correlates to being blown up. At t=0, it's nothing. That's the center. But when it gets blown up, it grows out. The surface of the balloon is space. The "center" is in the middle of the balloon, NOT on the surface - it doesn't exist.

You are exactly right....that is if the universe in extraverted and not intraverted. So, in my model, there is a definite center, and edge.

WHAT are you talking about? You've got a geocentric model here, totally unexplained (wonder why?) as well as a nonsensical post. Please either clearly state what you're trying to say, or find another way to say it.

You need to turn the universe model 'outside in' to understand.
The earth is merely a hollow shell in which we live on the inside surface.
The stars, planets, galaxies are tiny and are inside.

Hope this helps.

Originally posted by jake1997
I have to state for the record right now, for all of you who are not religious in nature,
This crazy cartoon you are witnessing is in no way supported by the christian bible , nor even is it heard of in christian theory.
It is so far outside the bible that it may as well be evolution

I felt that one comin'

-time out

A need to defend true Christianity from the like heretics like myself.
Sorry, Mr. Defender of the Faith....you failed your bible study.

Jesus would be a lot more pleased if we acknowledged and tried to prove scientifically his literal bodily existance.

This crazy cartoon you are witnessing is in no way supported by the christian bible

Oooooh yes it is.

Psalm 104:2, Isaiah 40:22, Psalm 18:11, 1Cor 13:12, Psalm 104, Job 38, Job 37:18, Genesis 9:13, Revelation 22...that's just off the top of my head I could list over a hundred, if you wanna go that route.

You've not only offended me but Jesus as well.

-time in

He's in the center, we're on the edge.

Originally posted by jake1997
Does the Universe have an edge or end? This assumes FTL travel that would let us go where we wanted as fast as we wanted

All matter was in the dot before the Big Bang . It exploded...and everything spread out.
Two logical conclusions seem to come out of this...

1.) Space...the universe..has an end or edge where stuff is still spreading

2.) Beyond that edge...things that thrive inside the universe...cannot go. Its like a fish leaving water. We cant go. So 'space' is actually 'something substantial'.

Am I making sense with this?

Does the universe have an edge or end beyond which we couldnt go if we had the means to travel there, using the Big Bang as the beginning?

Maybe your answers will better define the question

Just thought I'd repost the original start of the thread.

Please don't feed the trolls, they just want to hijack the thread.

I already made that mistake a few times.

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www.belowtopsecret.com...

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Anyway back on topic.

Very interesting questions some of them we may not ever be able to answer.

IMHO I believe the edge of the universe is constantly expanding, and if Einstein was right and there is no way to go faster than light, we would never be able to reach the edge.

If the Big Bang theory is right, then the universe is constantly expanding at the speed of light.

However it could be a cycle and if the Universe ever starts to collapse, we would find the edge of the universe closer by, to our dismay.

I think that quasars are the observed object that is farthest away and traveling the fastest away, so perhaps they are the edge of the universe.

en.wikipedia.org...

posted by leftBehind
However it could be a cycle and if the Universe ever starts to collapse, we would find the edge of the universe closer by, to our dismay.

If the universe were to collapse(enough mass/gravity to over take the expansion) wouldn't only matter reverse its direction, meaning galaxies would be moving toward one another instead of away?

Space/time would still be what it is today, no? All matter would be contained in a singularity(probably only to explode again), but this time into a pre-existing space/time fabric.

It's theoretically possible that this big-bang to a big-crunch universe has happened an infinite number of times in the past. Is that a new universe each time? Or just reconstituted matter in a pre-existing space/time landscape? If there is no edge, it can't overtake you any more than you can overtake it.

There is no there...there correct?

[edit on 31-5-2005 by Rren]

For lack of knowledge, I was starting with several assumptions in order to ask the question.

One of the assumptions was that space/time were part of the Big Bang and subject to the same forces as matter. Call it Dark Matter or whatever.

I picture space/time like 'water' and matter as 'stuff' in the water. Eventually the expansion ceases, and reverses, and everything goes back to the dot.... etc

That is my concept of the Big Bang and the implied logic that follows.

So in the end, it comes down to..

Is space/time tangible?
Air' use to be thought of as nothing'. Just like space/time today.

What say you?

In one sense, spacetime is very tangible. You can alter it and shape it based on your mass, your speed, your rotational speed. All sorts of things.

In another sense, everything moves through spacetime, and so while most everything interacts with it, spacetime is still what something moves through and is not tangible in that sense. You cannot grab a spacetime molecule.

Originally posted by jake1997
For lack of knowledge, I was starting with several assumptions...

Yeah me too.

One of the assumptions was that space/time were part of the Big Bang and subject to the same forces as matter. Call it Dark Matter or whatever.

I think you mean Dark Energy. Dark Matter is regular matter that, for any number of reasons, is not seen(ie. 'dead' planets around extinquished stars, rogue planets, asteroids, etc......). I think when they measure a galaxy they see how fast the stars(seen) are orbiting around the galactic center(prolly a hundred other variables as well). They then can use this info to infer the amount of matter in the galaxy, it's usually much more than what we can detect by observations alone. So we figure the "missing matter" is simply unseen or unseeable for completely ordinary(natural) reasons.

I think Dark Energy is basically determined, more or less, the same way. They "know" how much matter is in the Universe, the gravity of that mass should be collapsing the Universe. Instead, as you know, the Universe is rapidly expanding and increasing in speed. So, much the same way they infer the presence of Dark Matter with mathematics, they do the same to infer the presence of Dark Energy. Then again this stuff is WAY over my head.

I picture space/time like 'water' and matter as 'stuff' in the water.

I've always thought of it like that as well, doesn't a galaxy(spiral) look alot like a hurricane as we see it on a sattelite image? You can make a reasonable analogy between Matter caught in a black hole, and water going down a drain once you "pull the plug".

Eventually the expansion ceases, and reverses, and everything goes back to the dot.... etc

Well that's the question, is the Universe completely balanced(expands forever)? Is there enough matter to slow the expansion and eventually reverse it, ending in the "Big Crunch"? Does the expansion, assuming the latter, continue "expanding" while matter heads the other way? Or does everything ( matter, energy, space/time all of it ) move together whether expanding or contracting? I think they can model it either way, too many unknown variables to probably ever truely know.

Is space/time tangible?
Air' use to be thought of as nothing'. Just like space/time today.

What say you?

Well can you really describe air, or can you simply measure its effects. (is it mph/kph or pressure or ??) Kinda like gravity or time, we know it's there, even if were not sure what it is exactly.

Well this couldn't have been helpfull to you, i'm even more confused than when i started but i do love to ponder this stuff

Yes Rren, Dark Energy

As for the Universe expanding forever, I dont see how. Not unless there is a continious bubbling supply coming from somewhere. Maybe its just a limit of the mind but I cant see a continious supply coming from a fininte dot.
But then... I cant see how everything that I can see...came from a dot in the first place


As for air... we can contain it in a box. Anything that we can manipulate like that I consider to be understood. Compared to the Big Bang and space time anyway

Originally posted by I See You
I don't believe the universe can have an edge or end. If it has an edge or ending, what is on the other side of that edge? It must be infinite in every direction where it never ends. Fathom that.

But if the universe is growing, then its got to have an edge or an end, its gotta have something to grow into hasn't it?!

which would bring us back to the start. Would it be possible to travel 'beyond the rim'.

The answer is still No.

You don't need a source for the universe to keep expanding. It's like if you throw a ball in space. Once you throw it, there is no longer a "source" pushing it but it keeps going. Until something stops it anyway. So what happens if there's nothing to "stop" the universe?

Originally posted by Amorymeltzer
The answer is still No.

You don't need a source for the universe to keep expanding. It's like if you throw a ball in space. Once you throw it, there is no longer a "source" pushing it but it keeps going. Until something stops it anyway. So what happens if there's nothing to "stop" the universe?

If theres nothing to stop the universe... then whys it growing, if you catch my drift? As was stated before, cant find the quote.. what is "beyond the rim"

Originally posted by Stuey1221
If theres nothing to stop the universe... then whys it growing, if you catch my drift?

No, actually, I don't catch your drift. And that isn't to say there's nothing stopping it. There just might not be enough. (although it looks like there's just enough)

haven't read all the posts on this thread so this may have been said. one theory is that if the universe can expand...then it can also contract. so if everything started as one mass, in one place etc...then it will one day return like that and maybe the process is on going. universe expands for 15 billion years, contracts for 15 billion years. big bang starts again, and the process is the same, yet with different life etc...who knows.

You wouldn't be able to get so far out that you can go up to the wall of the universe and knock on it.

would there be a point if you kept going where space would just be black, where space has yet to expand to etc. but if you kept going surely it cant go on forever, there has to be a point at where the darkness ends. if you think about space being some sort of cuboid then it has to have walls, has to have boundaries which it hasnt reached yet... space is complicated

This thread makes me feel non-existent, rofl.
You'd think it was impossible for it to just keep going. It just doesn't add up.
I'm not too familier with space and time, but I just don't see how it's possible for space not to have an end.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
would there be a point if you kept going where space would just be black, where space has yet to expand to etc.

No. Because that wouldn't be space. If something is black, it means there's no light there. If you're outside of space, well, you can't be. It doesn't exist.

but if you kept going surely it cant go on forever

Yes it can, why not? Maybe not right now, but at a later date sure. You'll never know the difference.


It's weird to think about, Nventual, but it's how things work. Weird things happen in life, although the bright side is most of them happen to big things (universe) and small things (electrons)

I suppose growing up 'knowing' that everything has an end to it, and not being taught about the end of the Universe or anything, you'd just assume that everything has to have an end and that's the way the world works.

Originally posted by Nventual
I suppose growing up 'knowing' that everything has an end to it, and not being taught about the end of the Universe or anything, you'd just assume that everything has to have an end and that's the way the world works.

Yup. The hardest part about any of this stuff is allowing your head to wrap itself around it - it's very hard, you have to alter your way of thinking.