Iran manufactures F-14 engine parts

And AIM-54 phoenix wasnt ONLY supposed to intercept Bombers, but fighters aswell... The F-14 main mission are BARCAP. That is defending the CVN's against ANY flying threat.

Therefore, Seekerof, you're right. Iranian Tomcats wouldnt even shoot down a grouse. Maybe the grouse would?

I dont trust this Iranian source. Heck Iran is a brutal islamic regine that doctors stories in its media and its news agencies.

This article is from an Islamic source and i will never trust an islamic source.

IMO this Islamic source has been doctored and i would even bother to even consider contemplating stuff from this Islamic source.

Is there any Reuters/AP/AFP story on this ?

Sorry Seekerofm, but you are wrong about phoenix and AWG-9 radar. F14s are the only fighters that use AWG-9 radars and phoenix, only and only works with f14s. Although f14s are uses 30 year old technology, they are still one of the most capable fighters today. Even US air force had been using their upgrade f14s until couple of years ago and the only reason they decided to discard them was because of their high maintenance cost.

Iran has been working on a replacement for the AIM-54. The 'new' missile is actually a Hawk SAM which they are trying to modify to work. I have seen photos of the missile strapped on but it is believed to just be a demonstrator.

Originally posted by persian
Even US air force had been using their upgrade f14s until couple of years ago and the only reason they decided to discard them was because of their high maintenance cost.

That would be the U.S. Navy is going to "retire" them in 2007. There is more in play than maintenance costs that is sending the vaunted Tomcat into the sunset, including it's relatively narrow operational role, flight deck size, weapons integration and lack of stealth. There is no correlation between current U.S. inventory of F-14 series aircraft and their Iranian counterparts, the U.S. aircraft are operational.

Dismissed.

Originally posted by Element
And AIM-54 phoenix wasnt ONLY supposed to intercept Bombers, but fighters aswell... The F-14 main mission are BARCAP. That is defending the CVN's against ANY flying threat.

Sure they can shoot down fughters in some cases, but they were built to take out Soviet bombers. They were the main threat to CVN's at the tmie, especially if Reforger had to be put into operation in the North Atlantic.
They had such a long range becasue the Soviet ASM's ( mainly the AS-4 and AS-6 ) had a huge range 300km+. The F-14's needed to engage these bombers at extreme range to provent them from reaching their launch enevelope.

That is why the AIM-54 was built.

Originally posted by Harlequin
its unfortunate that you have never served in the air force , like i do - otherwise you would consider many aircrfat types you summarily dismiss as `useless` far more dangerous.

Assumption based on what?
Heads-up partner....
Harlequin, I did serve in the US Air Force.
Separation date 1994.
Served in Bosnia and the 2nd Gulf War [liberation of Kuwait], among a few 'other 'unknowns'.
First two years, I was stationed at Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., TAC, AFSC: Tactical Air Command and Control Specialist.
The last six years, I was with Pararescue, stationed out of Pope AFB, NC.
You need my SF-180?

One thing I learned growing up and in service, never assume unless absolutely sure, Harlequin. I have mentioned my previous tenure within the Air Force only a few limited times on this board. I can understand that you would have missed those mentions.

As for those Iranian F-14s:
I simply dismiss what can be relatively dismissed.
The 20+ Iranian F-14s pose no threat to any significant modern Western or Asian Air Force. If Iran ever opts to use those F-14s in combat against any decently trained and equipped Western or Asian air force, those Iranian F-14s will be handily "dismissed."




seekerof

[edit on 19-5-2005 by Seekerof]

I suggest people read Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in combat written by Tom Cooper before assuming anything about the ability's of the Iranians to maintain the F-14s.

www.amazon.com...

Now the other sources say that Iran has around 20 tomcats in flying condition. Not quite true. There are over 50 tomcats, I think they were 58, and at one time around 30 of hem are in service and the rest are being repaired and referbished.

The kill ratio of the tomcats in the Iran-Iraq war was :

Iranian Air Force Kills Against The Iraqi Air Force
Confirmed Kills ________ 123
Unconfirmed Kills ______ 5
Shared Kill ___________ 1
Damage/Close Calls ___ 8


Iraqi Air Force Kill Claims Against The Iranian Air Force
Confirmed Kills ________ 3
Unconfirmed Kills ______ 9
Damage/Close Calls ___ 1

For anyone who is really intresed in this topic you may like to join acig and view the opic below which contains over 20 pages of informaion regarding the Iranian tomcats and also in he discussion is Mr Cooper who has researched he Iranian airforce for over ten years.

acig.org...

I seriously question the validity of those Iranian F-14 "kill ratios", Sep.
Your mis-interpreting the information your using to imply what you have.
From an old FAS article:

A few Iranian F-14s are believed to have been shot down during the war, with the Iranian F-14s claiming a small number of kills of their own. It is known that the Soviet Union obtained both the F-14 and the Phoenix missile for reverse-engineering from Iran. It is unclear if this was done by the Iranian Islamic Republic's government or by a defecting Iranian pilot. F-14 technology may have influenced development of the Soviet MiG-31 "Foxhound" or "Super Foxbat", and it seems very likely that the Phoenix had a strong influence on the Soviet "AA-9 Amos" AAM, since the two missiles closely resemble each other externally.

The Grumman F-14 Tomcat

Furthermore, this crediable source indicates:

At least some F-14s were lost in action, but the claims of the two sides are in poor agreement, as is always the case in warfare. Iraq claims some 11 kills...

Continues on here:

Meanwhile, Iran claims that the F-14 accounted for 35 to 45 kills against the Iraqi Air Force for only one shot down. Iran has admitted to up to 12 further losses, but claims they all resulted from engine stall during dogfights rather than enemy fire. Though the claims of neither side have been verified, F-14s are known to have accounted for 3 air-to-air kills against Iraqi aircraft, including two Mirage F1s and a MiG-21. Western estimates for the true kill-loss ratio attained by the F-14 during the conflict credit 4 kills against 4 or 5 losses.

Iranian Air Force F-14

Btw, the Iran-Iraq War took place when? 1980?! Wow. I wonder how much life remains in those limited F-14 airframes, twenty-five plus years later? And being that to this day, the Iranian's still cannot reproduce all the parts of an F-14, those numbers for operational F-14s will continue to decline. Of further interest:

While Iran has managed to keep at least a portion of its Western aircraft in service, the status of the vaunted Phoenix missile is still debated. Most sources indicate that none were used during the Iran-Iraq War owing to their supposed sabotage while others claim that up to 25 Iraqi planes were downed by AIM-54s before Iran exhasuted its supply in 1986. Regardless, the aircraft is still able to fire AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-9 Sidweinder missiles, and typically carries four AIM-7s and two AIM-9s for air-to-air operations. Iran is reportedly developing a domestic version of the Sparrow to replace its stock of expended missiles.

Iranian Air Force F-14

You did see the mention in bold above? Iran has no more AIM-54s, aka Phoenix missiles......

As mentioned and asserted previously: Iran's F-14s pose no real or viable threat to an crediable modern Western or Asian air force.




seekerof

[edit on 20-5-2005 by Seekerof]

Mate, I posted a thread to 23 pages of information about F-14 and a book which prooves that Iran still has in operation 58 aircraft including pictures of them carrying the Aim-54.

Now your credible source might be right about American aviation, but I doubt they have the same first hand information as Mr Tom Cooper who spent a good amount of time in Iran and interviewed Iranian pilots from the first Persian gulf war and all of his information is confirmed. You can choose to read your own source and it is not my job to convince you and you can believe what you wish, or you can read my source as well as your own and make your own conclusions.

Either way, the sources are there, the informations is there, for the people who want to read it. For the people who dont, well thas heir problem no mine.

Oh and one last thing, the two links you provided were written by a good chap named Greg Alexander. He is a pilot who has never traveld to Iran. he first link was writen by Greg Goebel, who is an expert in technology in general and is intrested in aviation and constantly publishes articles about his intrests. These are all nice and I am sure they are great experts in American aviation but between two people who have never seen Iran and a person who has spent a decade studying the IRIAF I would pu more weight on the words of the latter, but thats just me.




[edit on 20-5-2005 by Sep]

Iranian F-14s have no available AIM-54s.
Iranian F-14s are "ancient" and pose no credible or viable threat to any modernized Western and Asian air forces.
Mr. Cooper may be your source for credible information, but I will stick with the information given by Western military analysts.
To this day, there is no solid and accurate verification for the exact number of kills for either Iraq or Iran during the Iran-Iraq War.

Iran had 77-79 F-14s and have used all but 15-25 for spare parts.
As such, the Iranians still cannot make ever part necessary for their F-14s to keep the numbers that they do have operational. Decline in those operational numbers is the only rational and inevitable conclusion.

If a future conflict arises in which Iran is involved in, those F-14s will be either dismissed handily or not flying at all.





seekerof

So much for denying ignorance. And you making certain words bold all I have to say is wow, you almost had me convinced.

As I menioned I am no here to force my views on you. You can trust your"western" experts. BTW incase you didnt realize "Tom Cooper" is a "western" expert.

And for he people who actually went to the site, they probebly found that I typed in the wrong website and I appoligize the website I was going to type was:

acig.org...



[edit on 20-5-2005 by Sep]

BTW, in case you are not aware, he is one man, along with Mr. Bishop.
As such, I am implying that he is one among countless credible other sources/military analysts on the Iranian air force and thier F-14s.

Ignorance Denied.




seekerof

[edit on 20-5-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
BTW, in case you are not aware, he is one man, alnog with Mr. Bishop.
As such, I am implying that he is one among countless credible other sources on the Iranian air force and thier F-14s.

Can you please mention the names of a few other authors who spent a decade in Iran and spoke to Iranian pilots and saw Iranian planes with their own eyes. And can you tell me what these true experts think about Iran's capabilities and please don quote people who write articles for a hobby. Just people who actually travled to Iran and are IRIAF experts. Thanks.

[edit on 20-5-2005 by Sep]

Sep...:shk:
I have read the dubious claims and assertions in the book that Mr. Cooper and the Iranian national, Mr. Bishop [that Cooper claims and asserts has access to Iranian and Iraqi documentation(s), along with claims of knowing or having air force contacts in supposedly three countries] have written.

I am not buying half of it. Btw, he claims and asserts that Iran has reversed engineered the Phoenix missile and made an improved version that is fire and forget. Got a link to those missiles? Are they described and named in the book? Not likely. Why? State secret? Please. More like hype.
How come Mr. Cooper fails to mention how often the Iranians practice at BVR, ACM, or Defense Counter Air? How come he fails to mention how often those F-14s are actually being currently flown? Fails to mention how many in-air flight time hours those Iranian F-14 pilots get? How often those pilots practice their BFM skills? The list of non-mentions can go on.

I've got a number of questions for Mr. Cooper and Mr. Bishop. Got an email addy for them? Maybe you can persuade them to come here and talk with a number of us ex-air force folks and military fighter enthusiasts?

That would be swell, but till then, nice read, but I am not buying half of what he asserts and claims.




seekerof

[edit on 20-5-2005 by Seekerof]

Two things mate, first, I have to congradulate you on the nice and smooth way you skipped the question I asked in the previous post, feel free to answer it in the future.

Second, go to the site I mentioned several times. Mr Cooper is a frequent visitor and you can private message him if you want to.

Two things yourself 'mate':

as posted by Sep
Can you please mention the names of a few other authors who spent a decade in Iran and spoke to Iranian pilots and saw Iranian planes with their own eyes.

Excuse me there, Sep....I answered this, here:

I have read the dubious claims and assertions in the book that Mr. Cooper and the Iranian national, Mr. Bishop [that Cooper claims and asserts has access to Iranian and Iraqi documentation(s), along with claims of knowing or having air force contacts in supposedly three countries] have written.

Erm, I guess that wasn't good enough for you? You wanted a straight 'yes' or 'no' answer? My answer is no.
As such, Sep, because Mr. Cooper and Mr. Bishop have, I'm to take his word as gospel, despite numerous sources by military analyst conflicting his assertions and claims? Not likely. I tend to take all comparative sources into account, unlike you, hinging your bets on one primary source. Interesting, no?

Now that your question has been answered, please, how about answer mine:

as posted by Seekerof
I am not buying half of it. Btw, he claims and asserts that Iran has reversed engineered the Phoenix missile and made an improved version that is fire and forget. Got a link to those missiles? Are they described and named in the book? Not likely. Why? State secret? Please. More like hype.
How come Mr. Cooper fails to mention how often the Iranians practice at BVR, ACM, or Defense Counter Air? How come he fails to mention how often those F-14s are actually being currently flown? Fails to mention how many in-air flight time hours those Iranian F-14 pilots get? How often those pilots practice their BFM skills?

Numerous questions for you there. And please don't simply be disrespectful and simply point your finger and say:

as posted by Sep
...go to the site I mentioned several times...

I am here, you are here. The questions beg for an answer. Will you 'masterfully' dodge them?




seekerof

[edit on 20-5-2005 by Seekerof]

It is very nice of you to take every other source into account. But one thing you should remember is that these sources, every year claim that Iran cannot fly any more planes. They said it first when they left in 1979. They said it again half way through the war with Iraq. And when in the late 1980s there was a 25 tomcat formation flying over Tehran, when they claimed Iran could not fly more than 10 of them, the got quite for a while. Then in the late 90s they started becoming experts again, claiming the tomcat's life time is finished. Before this year's air prade many claimed that the tomcats could not fly. Then a formation of them flow, followed by Mig-29s followed by F-4s. So overall I wouldnt put too much emphisize on these "experts"

Now about the questions. You asked me: "Got a link to those missiles? Are they described and named in the book? Not likely. Why? State secret? Please. More like hype.
How come Mr. Cooper fails to mention how often the Iranians practice at BVR, ACM, or Defense Counter Air? How come he fails to mention how often those F-14s are actually being currently flown? Fails to mention how many in-air flight time hours those Iranian F-14 pilots get? How often those pilots practice their BFM skills? The list of non-mentions can go on. "

To these questions I cannot answer because I am not Copper, If I was I would have liked to help you, but I am not. Therefore I provided you with a link to have a direct conversaion with Mr Cooper and come back with your answers. I dont know the answers to your questions(just incase you were looking for a defenative answer).

Those comparative sources I have used to come to my conclusions are numerous and credible indeed, Sep.

And they all say virtually the same, save one: Mr Cooper and Mr. Bishop.

Recent books by Tom Cooper and Farzad Bishop seem to suggest that the Iranian use of the Tomcat might have been more effective than had been previously reported. These books report that during the Iran-Iraq war Iranian Tomcat crews scored numerous AIM-54 kills, that there were several Tomcat aces with over 8 kills, and that there were over 100 total victory claims.

It is extremely difficult to get any reliable estimates of just how many Iranian F-14As were in service at any one time during the war. Western intelligence estimates tended to put the number of serviceable Tomcats flying with the IRIAF at a very low level, often less than ten, with planes having been deliberately cannibalized to keep at least a few flying. In the summer of 1984, the Pentagon estimated that Iran could field only 15-20 Tomcats, maintaining them largely by cannibalization. Iranian sources tended to discount these Western estimates as "imperialist propaganda", and placed the number of in-service Tomcats at a much higher value.

Another indication that Western intelligence may have consistently underestimated Iranian capabilities in this area may have taken place on February 11, 1985, when no less than 25 Iranian F-14A Tomcats took place in a mass flypast over Teheran. In spite of the Western arms embargo, Iran seems to have been able to maintain a more-or-less steady supply of spare parts for its fleet of Tomcats, Phantoms, and F-5Es. Some of these parts seem to have been smuggled into Iran by collusion with Israel. Some may have come in as a result of the "arms-for-hostages" deal in which the US government supplied arms to Iran in exchange for its assistance in getting hostages held in Lebanon released.

The Phoenix missiles and/or their guidance avionics were reportedly rendered inoperative by sabotage before the war began and have not been operational since. There are no reports of any Phoenix missiles being fired during the Iran-Iraq war. However, the AN/AWG-9 radar did remain operational, and the Iranian Tomcats could still fire AIM-7 and AIM-9 missiles. Most IRIAF Tomcats flew with a missile load of four Sparows and two Sidewinders.

Tomcat In Service with Iran

Virtually all my sources on Iranian F-14s have the sources they utilized listed at the bottom of the page, Sep.

And they seem quite credible and fairly reliable, despite what Mr. Cooper and Mr. Bishop assert and claim. Underestimation is something that is inevitable, but in the case of the Iranian F-14s, underestimation or not, if caught in the air in the near future against a modernized Western or Asian air force, they will become "splash one...splash two, etc.s". There is no denying that the time-life of those Iranian airframes will not last for ever, no matter the amount of 'jerry-rigging' the Iranians do on them. Those small numbers that are operational now, with each passing year, will require continued extensive 'rigging' and/or eventually decrease. Sooner or later, the viability of keeping those F-14s operational will become fruitless or simply not worth it anymore. Thats the law of averages at work here, Sep, and the fact that its also an inevitability. The only credit I will give the Iranians is that they have kept the few that they have operational as long as they have.

They are still no threat, based on the considerations I have based this [my] claim and assertion on.




seekerof

[edit on 20-5-2005 by Seekerof]

May I ask where all these experts that you quote get their information from? Tell me if I am wrong but these experts take their information in tern from other experts who take it from other experts. Its a chain reaction and what is ironic is that these experts have not visited Iran or seen what Iran is up to, so please tell me where hey are getting their information from?

One more thing just finished reading one of the articles you posted and it seems to be contridicting itself. Tell me what you think of it.

"The US has estimated the number of operational Iranian F-14s at any given time at 15 to 20, and sometimes less than 10, due to the cannibalization of other planes to keep a few flying"

Whille at the bottom of the article it say's:

"Some 50 to 55 are believed to remain in service, but only about 30 of these are considered airworthy at any one time. "

Tell me which one you think is right.

And about the airframes, the US Navy is still operating the aricrafts, correct? If the airframes can last on the sea, on the humid conditions on the carriers, and still fly today, what makes you think that the Iranian frames are worst off?