The exciting religion of aliens and ufo's...

Every single time when I browse around in this section of these forums, I am amazed by the amount of people that actually believe aliens are visiting and evaluating earth.

Of course it's an exciting thought that there are these species who have found a new way to travel beyond our technology, that these species can never be seen by our most advanced radar system because their stealthing capabilities are beyond our technology, that no ufo or alien was ever "found" and made public to our science and knowledge because their manipulating capabilities are beyond what we can understand, but exactly how much sense do all these assumptions make?

To me it seems the folks who "want" to believe in aliens blindly assume the following things;


1. They assume that there HAVE to be other planets with life on them, simply because there are so many of em we can't see.

2. They assume the life on the other planet is more intelligent, more sophisticated than the most intelligent specie on earth, humans.

3. They assume the life on the other planet does not want to reveal themselves to us, but merely flash around in their speedy vehicles, making some of us look like fools when we show our photos to the world.


Now to me it seems all these 3 assumptions are based on nothing but the WILL to believe in a star-wars scenario.


1. There HAVE to be aliens because there are so many planets...
Why?
Do we know how life on earth started and what chance there is that life starts on a planet similar to earth in general?
Do we know how big the universe is?

Unless we know how WE came to be, we can not make one sensable comment about what chance there is that somehow somewhere something similar happened.

2. "They" HAVE to be more advanced than we are...
How come?
Is it not possible that life in other parts of the universe may actually be way less advanced than we are?
On earth there is only one intelligent specie around, humans.
Out of the many many many different kinds of species, only ONE can actually develop technology, feel emotions, etc.
Now how big exactly would the chance be that other planets only have "animal-like" species on them?
Bigger than the chance that they are so way way more advanced than we are, if you ask me.

3. They don't want open communication with us, they want to remain hidden...
Why?
So they only use their superduper turbo technology to come and have a quick look and fly back -all stealthed- and talk about us with eachother?
Sounds like we're part of a zoo or something...

Seriously, I don't buy it.
It all sounds very exciting I will admit, but when nothing makes sense and all the "why's" remain unanswered, wouldn't it be time to start admitting the whole story about aliens visiting us is about as credible as the story of Loch Ness?

Jakko,
I do not know if you have viewed the Discovery Planets special that has been playing lately but it does help address some of your questions.
Even scientist like Stephen Hawkins (sorry if I misspell his name) was on the special and agreed that mathematicaly, there will be other life on other planets.
He also mentioned the time it took for life here oon earth to evolve into what it is today and the age of the planets. There is a very good possibility, based on what we know today, that in other solar systems that are much older than ours, could have supported life at a much earlier time than it did here. On a scoale of millions of years.
So the thought of aline life being present is not as nonsensical (sorry for the spelling) as it may seem on the surfacce.
Now as to the question of visitations, I do not know. There are a lot of questions that have to answered and problems overcome before any species can perform interstellar filght economically or with any speed.
I would like to think so but again whop knows.
I do invite you though to watch the Alien Planet show though. I thought it was interesting.

i dont really some think people who say they believe all this do. since when has science helped us with opinion? i personally believe there must be aliens, more or less intelligent i dont know. visitations? i dont know. all i know is that everyone has their own opinion and we should leave it at that

Originally posted by Jakko
1. There HAVE to be aliens because there are so many planets...
Why?
Do we know how life on earth started and what chance there is that life starts on a planet similar to earth in general?
Do we know how big the universe is?

Unless we know how WE came to be, we can not make one sensable comment about what chance there is that somehow somewhere something similar happened.

First you have to get your head round the vastness of space and the universe. There are millions upon millions of planets and stars in our galaxy alone. There are possibly millions of galaxies...you do the math. Now, if just one percent of those planets are the same distance away from their sun, and one percent of those has an agreeable atmosphere, and one percent of those had the building blocks of life, and one percent of those had the spark of life. If one percent of those actually produced intelligent life, that is still thousands of planets with intelligent life out there. That is pretty good odds for intelligent and more advanced life.
Do we know for certain if there is life? No....is that what you want to hear? The glass is half empty? To the believers, the glass is half full!

2. "They" HAVE to be more advanced than we are...
How come?
Is it not possible that life in other parts of the universe may actually be way less advanced than we are?
On earth there is only one intelligent specie around, humans.
Out of the many many many different kinds of species, only ONE can actually develop technology, feel emotions, etc.
Now how big exactly would the chance be that other planets only have "animal-like" species on them?
Bigger than the chance that they are so way way more advanced than we are, if you ask me.

No, they don't have to be more intelligent. Scientists at NASA are looking for any sign of life on Mars, past and present. If they find even a microbe of life, it will be a significant find, as it proves that life is possible on other planets. If there is the possibility of life, then there is a possibility of intelligent life.

3. They don't want open communication with us, they want to remain hidden...
Why?
So they only use their superduper turbo technology to come and have a quick look and fly back -all stealthed- and talk about us with eachother?
Sounds like we're part of a zoo or something...

There are many reasons why they may not make themselves known. What would happen to our civilisation if tomorrow on all the news networks we saw aliens landing all over the Earth? We would not go to work, riots would break out, the militaries of the world would probably attack them, ...society would quite probably fall apart. Who knows how long that would last?
What about our governments? Do they want us knowing about the existence of ET? Some think they are hiding the fact already.

Some people believe because they have seen too many coincidences and too much secrecy. These believers refuse to believe the lie.....with as much secrecy and lies as governments do now, who knows what the truth is!!

First off, even most scientists agree that the odds of us being the only planet in the universe with life, are (pardon the pun), astronomical. Furthermore, Drake's equation (scientist) posits that some of that life (statistically) should be of some intelligence.

Now, the odds aside, NASA has already announced that Mars had water, and from what we've seen on Earth, where there is water, there is life. So then, it's a LOGICAL conclusion, not a belief or a religion, that extra-terrestrial life exists. And this is just one of our nearest neighbors, in THIS solar system. Nevermind the untold BILLIONS of other solar systems and planets out there. There is also evidence that other places in the solar system, such as Europa, also might harbor water and life, perhaps similar to that found in deep sea vents here on Earth.

So, extra-terrestrial life is a logical conclusion. The chance that some of it is intelligent, is a statistical likelihood. So, if they exist, then are they visiting Earth?

Well, we know that OUR current technology would not enable us to travel to other solar systems. Even trips within our own system could take a while, and pose difficult technical challenges for manned flights. So again, logically, IF we are being visited, they would then have some kind of superior technology.

In your argument you've presented several falsehoods.

First, they HAVE been tracked on radar. Unidentified objects were and are, often tracked by radar systems. Some of the best UFO cases involve such evidence. Indeed, it was the radar confirmations that convinced the military that these unknown craft posed a possible defense risk, and numerous official and unofficial projects studied the phenomenon.

Second, it isn't due to alien manipulation, but to government coverup, as to why such physical evidence hasn't been made public. There are numerous examples that PROVE a coverup, such as the men in Project Bluebook who've come forward, stating as such, or of course, the inept Roswell coverup, where the USAF story can be logically PROVEN without a doubt, even to skeptics, to be a coverup. In fact, they've even ADMITTED to coverups, they simply state it was something else they were covering up. The something else (Mogul), simply doesn't logically stand up, or fit the facts, such as date, material description, and actions taken by the military in recovery.

Lastly, they don't want communication with us. How do we know this? Simple, because the ball is in their court at any time to do so. Again, not a belief, it's a logical conclusion. Why? There isn't sufficient evidence to logically conclude why...so any supposition, including yours, is at best a guess.

A BELIEF is something a person holds true because of their own ideas.

A THEORY is something one holds LIKELY based on the evidence. The evidence for us being visited by craft not of this Earth is extensive to say the least. Ancient writings, paintings, modern photos and videos (and before simple manipulation), official and unofficial documents, testimony by pilots, military personnel (from Sergeants to Generals), even Ministry of Defense members, NSA, CIA members, etc., radar contacts, military intercepts, military projects (many even classified) to study the phenomenon, etc.

On the contrary, to ignore the evidence, and believe that all of it adds up to swamp gas, Venus, etc....no THAT is BELIEF, and an illogical conclusion.

To me it seems the folks who "want" to believe in aliens blindly assume the following things;

1. They assume that there HAVE to be other planets with life on them, simply because there are so many of em we can't see.

2. They assume the life on the other planet is more intelligent, more sophisticated than the most intelligent specie on earth, humans.

3. They assume the life on the other planet does not want to reveal themselves to us, but merely flash around in their speedy vehicles, making some of us look like fools when we show our photos to the world.

1) I believe in aliens cause I have seen them in the past and will see them in the future.

2) I don't assume this, I find some to be very stupid.

3) Quantum Physics explains lack of physical evidence in any form in addition to their "magical" abilities

It looks like you have had each of your points responded to now Jakko, is it not interesting that in we fact most of 'us' do not seem to believe as you think we do?

It is the little things that make a difference, when you consider even the current estimated size of the Universe it is simply logical to assume other intelligent life. When you consider the potential spectrum of life it is also logical to assume some is farther advanced that we.

But really the judgement of advanced is rather subjective. Just because we cannot cross the distance between Stars we place a rather high value on any technology that can accomplish that task. We used to think of Stealth tech the same way, but now that we have some of it most people take the ability to minimize radar returns as no big deal.

It is difficult to put a set of labels on a group as diverse as the one here on ATS. I always look to the best and most experienced myself when I am attempting to do such a thing. There are always more people who are just starting to learn or who know only a fraction of the total picture who can cloud the issue with questions at different levels of understanding.

I think that perhaps when you consider the answers expressed here, that you might find that we are not so wrong after all.


A.T
(-)

Gazrok........................your just to kewl!
Your very informed on this subject and I tend to take you seriously. Your points are always valid......
I only HOPE your not just some wacky disinformationist getting government checks dude.................then I am lost for sure....

On the contrary, I wish I WAS getting government checks, as I could always use the dough...

I just think it's really easy to contribute whatever factors there may be allowing other species to come to us to "higher technology".
If we start talking about "higher technology" everything and anything is possible and we can let logic and proof go to begin with, it's all result of "higher technology" anyways.

Impossible that Bush is a shapeshifting lizard? No you don't get it, it's all higher technology.

It makes the entire ufo/alien phenomena into a "starwars" version of a religion.

Besides this, we do NOT know what exactly "started" us.
We know how life evolves from some stages to next stages, but we not fully understand how it all started.

My personal beliefs on this are that there are aliens out there, somewhere, but I'm fairly sure none of them have been to Earth. Statistically, I think life on other worlds is extremely reasonable, and probably varies from the microbe level to the super-advanced.

I've seen some fairly good arguments in favor of alien visitations, with some interesting evidence, but no concrete proof. I started a thread once called something like 'skeptic asks why do you believe in aliens' and I got a lot of interesting responses and evidences posted there.

It would take extremely advanced technology to travel from even the nearest stars to Earth. It would entail either near-light speed tech (for stars close by) or some sort of superlight warp drive or teleportation.

Alien visitations require the following assumptions to be met:

1) That intelligent alien life has developed on other worlds
2) That the aliens develop some sort of high tech interstellar transportation
3) That a species this advanced would actually care what a bunch of primitives (us) are doing (and get caught by us, or we'd never know)

It's definitely possible aliens are visiting us, but nothing is conclusive for either side of the argument (yet).

As for the interesting comparison you made to religion, I tend to agree, at least partially. Some people seem to treat aliens as a kind of belief system that they take on faith. There are others, however, that use a much more scientific method to ufology.

I think the reason ufology has a bad rap is because of the people who claim to have all sorts of information about shapeshifting reptiles, draconians, greys, greens, purples, yellows, etc etc. I've seen websites (and posters here) that claim to know things like detailed anatomy of alien species, galactic 'histories', and other data that could not possibly be known. Their stories tend to violate the laws of physics and the bounds of sanity. This is not to say that there aren't credible ufo/alien witnesses; there are. But the vast majority of the accounts I have seen are not.

Certainly many assumptions have been made of the subject, but there are also many who have at least physically seen and reported on UFOs. Myself included. You must excuse me for not believing the stories our governments and scientists have made concerning the phenomenon after having witnessed some of these objects myself. Now I have not seen an ET, but I think after having seen what I have I can conclude with at least some degree of certainty that they were not man-made and they were most certainly not hallucinations or misjudgements of other conventional aerial phenomena.