NEWS: Air Force Seeks Bush Nod For Space Weapons

Let me ask everyone this question. Why is it the United States's responsibility to weaponize space? Regardless if it's for offensive or defensive purposes?

Bunker busters would work very well if launched from 50 miles up in orbit.

Why do you people *insist* on being so ridiculously partisan? Do you not recall Clinton specifically restarting the SDI programs in his last term?!

This is why the government consistently gets out of hand-because so many people are into this "everything the other party is doing is BAD" thing when their favorite group does the same thing "it's a GOOD thing"?

I've been following the SDI programs since Reagan first proposed the idea. I've seen all the test footage ever released to the public, read the congressional debates, heard the treaties discussed. I've seen the prototypes over at LLNL in their displays.

The Soviet Union repeatedly and brazenly broke prtions of the AMB and Outer Space treaties for it's various defense initiatives. US response was to do the same. The treaties were writen during the Cold War, to keep the US and USSR on similar pages. They were *not* written out of concern for China or Iraq or Trashcanistan. Many nations were included simply out of politics and concern for national prestige. Is France a signatory? They have had orbital launch capability for decades. Was India asked to sign?

But, historical context and critical thinking isn't exactly a subject promoted in public schools these days. Just arbitrarily choose a side and accept all that your chosen Overlord tels you.

Originally posted by subz
Yes you are correct, the United States has signed the 1967 Outer Space Treaty which expressly prohibits any militarisation of space.

[
Yet another example of the Bush administration having one set of rules for themselves and an entirely other set of rules for everyone else.

How would the feel about Iran weaponizing space? Or how about China weaponizing space? What about Russia? Or North Korea? They would vehemently cite the Outer Space Treaty and call for U.N sanctions I pressume, much like their attempts to instate sanctions on Iran for a "suspected" breach of the Non-Proliferation Treaty.

If they hold the Non-Proliferation Treaty in such high regard and demand other countries adhere to the treaties they are signatories to, why did they pull out of the ABM treaty and now why are they going to violate the 1967 Outer Space Treaty?

A little consistancy please!

[edit on 18/5/05 by subz]

"undertake not to place in orbit around the Earth any objects carrying nuclear weapons or any other kinds of weapons of mass destruction, install such weapons on celestial bodies, or station such weapons in outer space in any other manner."

it does NOT say ALL WEAPONS are banned, only nuclear or other weapons of mass destruction.

It also says that everything put into space should be "peaceful" in nature. I say that quite comprehensively prohibts weapons OF ALL KINDS dont you?

Oh boy....again the anti-US rhetoric?

We are talking about the weaponization of space are we not?.....

Why isn't anyone even mentioning that both Russia and China have made treaties with each other for space programs, and that China has several plans for space weaponry in mind and that the Chinese have been asking Russia for help in their space program, which they recieved since 1995?

The Chinese space program is not civilian, it is controlled by the military.
Anyone claiming that the PLA has no intentions to use space for military purposes is out of his/her mind and not thinking rationally. The Russians know this, yet they made a partnership with China despite this knowledge.

NEW DELHI - Chinese leaders have always believed prowess in science and technology to be an essential ingredient of its national strength. From the very beginning the conceptualization, design and development of its space program has had a definite military orientation, and consequently its control has always rested with the Central Military Commission.

The People's Republic of China's (PRC's) space program is an outgrowth of the country's missile technology development effort that began in early 1956 as a consequence of the United States and the Soviet Union seeking missile-launch capabilities. This was surprising considering the fact that it was less than 10 years after the founding of the PRC.
...............
For a nation to be a space power it must develop composite, satellite-launch and mission-support capabilities. The PRC has over the years succeeded in creating full-spectrum, end-to-end research, design, trial manufacture, production and testing systems for both satellites and launch vehicles. It is important to understand that the Chinese have always regarded space as a frontier that holds the key to success in maintaining a strategic balance of power.

Technological developments in concert with a revolution in military affairs have made space an important dimension of future warfare. The Chinese have closely studied all the recent wars (Gulf Wars I and II, and the Kosvo and Afghan wars) and have come to the conclusion that in the ongoing revolution in military affairs, victory is only possible through exploitation of unknown fields in asymmetric warfare. It is in this context that Chinese military planners have focused on "information warfare" and "space supremacy" as the key components of its battlefield "Supremacy Theory" as enunciated in an October 28 People's Liberation Army (PLA)Daily article, "Space is the commanding point for the information battlefield".

Excerpted from.
www.atimes.com...

Today, twenty-six years into its second and longest sustained effort to modernize its defense establishment, China's focus on the most advanced military technologies remains. Space systems for communications, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, laser weapons, precision strike munitions, and information war technologies are but part of the lengthening list of capabilities sought. In short, China seeks again to be self-reliant in the military technologies and capabilities that distinguish a major military power.

Excerpted from.
www.asianresearch.org...

So, the Chinese and the Russians are not trying to weaponize space?

BTW, one more thing. Every country in the world who has nuclear missiles has already weaponized space...in case noone noticed...Nuclear missiles when fired go into orbit around the Earth through space until it almost reaches it's target....



[edit on 23-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Oh boy....again the pro-US rhetoric?

I fail to see your points here Muaddib.

You missed this out from bolding in your quote.

as a consequence of the United States and the Soviet Union seeking missile-launch capabilities

Youre trying to prove that the Chinese intentions are less noble than the Americans by showing their missile technology benefited from its Space program

Do you have any idea how much the American military has benefited from the U.S space program?

From Nasa website
One heard of a race with Russia, a topic that would be debated often in the years to come. While many would deny the necessity to run a race-and some would even contend that no race existed-for most, competition with the Soviets was serious business. Even those in a position to appreciate the strength of the U.S. position did little to bring it out, most likely because they, too, were persuaded of the importance of recapturing leadership in space, especially in view of the military implications.

NASA

Where do you think your militaries rocket and missile technology came from? Does that mean, as you infer with the Chinese, that the United States has always wanted to weaponize space? Your argument is pretty flawed as the only country that has signalled it's intent to send weapons into space is the United States.

[edit on 24/5/05 by subz]

Originally posted by subz
Oh boy....again the pro-US rhetoric?

I fail to see your points here Muaddib.

That's because your anti-US stance is making you blind to the obvious. China has had a plan to militarize space for a long time, and they went looking for Russian help since 1995. That's before president Bush was in office, for those who don't remember.

Originally posted by subz
You missed this out from bolding in your quote.

as a consequence of the United States and the Soviet Union seeking missile-launch capabilities

And you seem to have missed that China has been trying to weaponize space since the 1950s and were seeking the help of the Russians for their military space program since 1995...

Originally posted by subz
Youre trying to prove that the Chinese intentions are less noble than the Americans by showing their missile technology benefited from its Space program

you are obviously missing the point....

Let me try to make my point again. you claim the Chinese/Russians are saying this because of president Bush' plans...

Let's see if that is true...

Arms race in outer space
"I should point out that some powers in the world are on the way to militarizing outer space, not peacefully exploring outer resources," said Huang Huikang, an official from the ministry who has been involved in several acts of space co-operation with foreign countries.


--Commercialization and industrialization
"Another arms race in outer space has begun since 1998 and we should be watchful," Huang said.

Excerpted from.
english.people.com.cn...

Wait a second...another arms race has begun since 1998......Was president Bush in power in 1998?

Huang is not only saying that an arms race began since 1998...but he said another...so the Chinese have been doing space arm races for sometime with the US....as the Chinese official himself admitted... i wonder if anything happened to him for that slip of the tongue...

Again Subz...nice try, but as always i can see through your exagerations and lies.


[edit on 24-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Wait a second...another arms race has begun since 1998......Was president Bush in power in 1998?

Huang is not only saying that an arms race began since 1998...but he said another...so the Chinese have been doing space arm races for sometime with the US....as the Chinese official himself admitted... i wonder if anything happened to him for that slip of the tongue...

Again Subz...nice try, but as always i can see through your exagerations and lies.

My exagerations and lies? Hmm wait a minute, lets have a close look at your quoted news article shall we.

China will meet challenges: official
But an official from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was concerned about the challenges China will meet after the State's space industry merges into the world market.

--Arms race in outer space
"I should point out that some powers in the world are on the way to militarizing outer space, not peacefully exploring outer resources," said Huang Huikang, an official from the ministry who has been involved in several acts of space co-operation with foreign countries.

Could you misrepresent that article any more than you have? A state official, speaking from his involvement with foreign countries says that "some powers in the world" are seeking to militarize space. He is clearly not speaking about China, who is exagerating and lying here?

"So the industry's management strategies should be in line with international rules," Huang said.

Wow what a renegade country. They are publically acknowledging their intentions to stick to international rules.

Moon trip to fill void in nation's space history

I also never said this was Bush's fault, this is clearly the USAF and Army that is pushing for this withdrawal from the treaty. It is up to Bush whether or not he bucks the will of the World here.

In contrast to your anti-Chinese diversion lets have a look at some information on your beloved United States.

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The U.S. Air Force is seeking President Bush's approval of a national security directive that could move the United States closer to fielding offensive and defensive space weapons, the New York Times reported on Tuesday, citing White House and Air Force officials.

Why do you need offensive weapons in space if this push is merely for defensive purposes? Hmm interesting...

Why is this push an attempt to move the United States "closer" to fielding weapons in Space? Could it be that the United States has been developing Space weapons for years?

A senior administration official said a new presidential directive would replace a 1996 Clinton administration policy that emphasized a less aggressive use of space, involving spy satellites' support for military operations, arms control and nonproliferation pacts, the report said.

Hmm the plot thickens a little, a presidential directive? From who? Bush? No....

With little public debate, the Pentagon has already spent billions of dollars developing space weapons and preparing plans to deploy them, the newspaper said.

Oh dear, it seems the United States has spent all this money on weapons its legally bound not to implement. Thats a shame, what ever will they do?

Air Force officials said the directive did not call for militarizing space. "The focus of the process is not putting weapons in space," said Maj. Karen Finn, an Air Force spokeswoman. "The focus is having free access in space."

Yes because "fielding offensive and defensive space weapons" will not militiarize Space will it? They are not denying it will militarize space, just that it is not the focus of this directive. Its a literary slight of hand that most people will interpret as the United States is "not calling for the militarizattion of space" when in actual fact it clearly is. Its just trying to shift the focus of the discussion to the reasons WHY it is militarizing space.

Air Force Seeks Bush Nod For Space Weapons

Why do you need offensive weapons in space to ensure free access? How will shooting things down ensure "free access" to Space?

Im not concerned with whether the Chinese or Russians are playing catch up with the United States on Space weapons. My concern is that the United States is actually considering fielding them!

[edit on 24/5/05 by subz]

Muaddib, you can't call subz a liar because you happen to disagree with him and not everything anti-American is unfounded rhetoric... but name calling might be.

Subz, I wonder... with the U.S.'s record, what do you see as the most likely consequences of the U.S. military putting weapons in space? What do you think could be the worst consequences? What do you think the specific motives might be (obviously not to ensure free access to outter space).


Look, as it stands right now, we've got the whole friggin' planet wired up to explode. Alone as we all may be individually, we just can't work together. Do you think there's ever going to be a time where everyone sets aside their paranoia and gives up their weapons? As much as I hope that the world's militaries would leave space alone, I know they won't. It's only a matter of time. So the only way that I see the military accepting a no go for weapons in space is if they can ensure that no one else will have them either. I don't think that's likely to happen.

Is it right or wrong to have weapons in space? Well, I think that we kill enough of each other easily enough that we don't need weapons in space. Sure there would be a lot of beneficial technology as a result but if we gave NASA the budget that we gave out military and the freedom to do whatever they wanted I'm sure NASA or another civilian space agency could come up with comparable technology. Maybe we need more things like the X prize.

Whether or not it's legal or justifiable, I doubt that anything will prevent my government from launching whatever the heck they want into space. So let's talk about what might come of that. After us, who else is going to want weapons there? Will that change the way wars are fought? How? Could the simple act of having weapons in space cause a war? With whom?
-S

It is not only that I disagree with what Subz is saying, but the evidence clearly suggest that either he is lying, or he just wants to ignore what all the evidence clearly suggests.

One more thing, to make this clear, which country was the one to claim that they would destroy certain city if certain country ever tries to defend Taiwan?.... That's how the PLA wants peace in the world?...

Subz, tell me, are you claming that the Chinese government is always forthcoming, 100% with what they are going to do?...with their military secrets and their military space program?

Sometimes i really don't know if you are really that naive Subz...

BTW, do notice that in order to have an arms race you need two of more countries in the race for weaponization of space....but of course that didn't seem to have crossed your mind.

Supposedly the Chinese began their "new" space venture in 1999...one of the things they want with their space program, is to make bases on the Moon, under the direction of the PLA (People's Liberation Army = The Communist Military party in power in China....), which is the "military" agency that controls the Chinese space program and pretty much everything in China.

If there are people who can't see that the People's Liberation Army of China does intent to use space for military operations, they don't know the history of the Communist regime....and you really have to be naive to think that a "military agency" would only try to make "peaceful" programs in space....

Reading Huang's statement, which i believe it was a clear slip of the tongue, the new arms race, in which the Chinese are a part of, began in 1998, under Clinton's administration. But the Chinese had been seeking the help of the Russians for their space program before that.

Here is a link on the timeline of the Chinese military space program.
www.cnn.com...

Obviously the Chinese were thinking on trying to militarize space "once more" during the Clinton administration.

Now, let's see if China has any programs to develop weapons in space.

DIRECTED ENERGY WEAPONS AND SENSORS
While receiving some recent public attention, relatively little is know concerning the details of Chinese directed energy weapon (DEW, or
xin gainian wuqi) systems development. Related R&D has probably been conducted since the 'Project 640' BMD and ASAT programme in
the 1960s.
..................
The Beijing Aeronautical Manufacturing Technology Research Institute currently operates the subsidiary Key Laboratory for High-Energy
Density Beam Processing Technology (lasers, electron beams, plasmas).
...................
The PLA is currently devoting considerable discussion on the tactical and strategic use of DEWs for applications such as air defence, antipersonnel,
communications, weapons guidance and fire control, sensors, space tracking, ASAT and BMD. It is likely that at least some of
this interest is now being channelled into actual development programmes, probably supported through the national 863 programme for
strategic R&D.

Excerpted from.
Link

So, the Chinese do have plans for Anti-satellite programs (ASAT) using high density beam weapons, and even they have agencies which deal with the High-Energy Density Beam Processing for Aeronautical purposes.

Since the Russians are also part of this topic let's see some of their own space programs, and at least one of their satellites which was launched in 1987 and was a prototype for a space-based laser.

Skif-DM (Polus) 17F19DM Energia KB Salyut Laser battle station 1987 N/A A prototype of space-based laser

That's just one of their military projects in space. That was in 1987...so much for them not wanting to militarize space huh?....

BTW, the whole list, or at least those we know about can be found in the following link, where i excerpted the above quote.
www.russianspaceweb.com...

Here is another link with a excerpt to the Russian military space program.

..................
On Oct. 1, 1992, the PRO and PKO Directorate was restructured into the Command of the Rocket and Space Defense (RKO). Colonel General Smirnov became officially the commander of the RKO forces. In 1997, RKO forces, along with Space Forces became the part of the Strategic Missile Forces (RVSN).

Excerpted from.
www.russianspaceweb.com...

Command of the Rocket and Space Defense?....

Space Forces?...

That is not for militarization purposes right?...


[edit on 25-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by ServoHahn
Muaddib, you can't call subz a liar because you happen to disagree with him and not everything anti-American is unfounded rhetoric... but name calling might be.

He thinks calling me a liar discredits what I've been proving to be nothing but factual. Ive resolved not to bother responding to his insulting posts any more. Its counterproductive and like banging my head against a brick wall.

Originally posted by ServoHahn
Subz, I wonder... with the U.S.'s record, what do you see as the most likely consequences of the U.S. military putting weapons in space?

Well I think the U.S's record of always aiming to be the dominant military force on the face of the Earth will extend to any weaponization of Space. They will not settle for parity in Space. Therefore U.S dominance of space will be the consequence.

Originally posted by ServoHahn
What do you think could be the worst consequences?

A situation where the U.S is dominant on Earth and Space and this pretence of spreading democracy is finally dropped. When the current administration stops bothering to paint a nice rosy picture on its blatant imperial expansion and securing of the planets finite resources. What can be done to counter a power that dominates land, sea, air and now space? Nothing.

Originally posted by ServoHahn
What do you think the specific motives might be (obviously not to ensure free access to outter space).

Well I think the whole U.S space weapons issue is pure Hegel.

Problem: The United States starts a publicised weapons program and spends billions of dollars on it. This causes the Russians and Chinese to follow suit. Now the problem is the Russians and Chinese are making space weapons!

Reaction: The United States states that because the Russians and Chinese are developing space weapons the free access to space is in jeapordy.

Solution: The United States dissolves the Outer Space Treaty and implements the very weapons that sparked the Space weapons race. Now the United States is the dominant space power and free access to space is at the discretion of the United States government.

The motives for this whole Hegalian process is to become the dominant power in Space. That the Russians and Chinese are making weapons is a direct result of the Star Wars program. It is a self-made problem who's solution is the aim the U.S government wanted from the outset, to implement these weapons.

Originally posted by ServoHahn
Do you think there's ever going to be a time where everyone sets aside their paranoia and gives up their weapons?

Not when a climate of fear and mistrust is actively fostered by our governments.

Originally posted by ServoHahn
As much as I hope that the world's militaries would leave space alone, I know they won't. It's only a matter of time.

Only because principled people allow them to. If everyone was vocal in protesting the weaponisation of space we atleast would stand some chance of preventing it. But no, because the United States is aiming to be the dominant power in Space most people assume that it is a purely good thing. So hardly any one will oppose it. To everyones loss.

Originally posted by ServoHahn
So the only way that I see the military accepting a no go for weapons in space is if they can ensure that no one else will have them either. I don't think that's likely to happen.

This current Outer Space Treaty has prevented the weaponisation of space for nearly 40 years. The Russians and Chinese will not be the first to weaponize space. They cannot afford it and the benefits do not justify it. They know the United States will not rest until they are the dominant space force so they are content with parity i.e. no one having space weapons.

The justification that "the Russians are building space weapons" or "the Chinese are building space weapons" so we should implement ours first, is flawed. They are developing these weapons with the view that the United States will weaponize space any way so they are not going to be left behind.

The United States wants to weaponize space and uses the fact that the Russians and Chinese are playing catch up as their justification to implement them.

How can I say that? Well the only government to actually announce their intentions to weaponize space are the Americans. The only ones who can afford to weaponize space are the Americans. The only ones who have the technology to win a Space weapons race are the Americans.

The Russians and the Chinese know that the scrapping of the treaty results in their loss of Space parity. They will not actively break the Outer Space Treaty unless forced to by the United States. Any evidence to the contrary from the likes of Muaddib is that you shouldnt trust what the Chinese and Russian governments say yet in the same breath demand you believe everything the American government says.

No evidence from the likes of Muaddib, only hearsay and conjecture. Atleast my views are backed up from what the government actually do and SAY. Not that I think they are lying with no evidence to back it up.

Originally posted by ServoHahn
Whether or not it's legal or justifiable, I doubt that anything will prevent my government from launching whatever the heck they want into space. So let's talk about what might come of that.

The Russians have indicated that they are prepared to prevent, by force, the United States militarizing space. They will find legal justification in the United Nations so economic and military consequences are not unthinkable. Access to Space is vital to both national and economic security for all countries. Dont underestimate the lengths the likes of China and Russia and the world at large will go to to prevent the dominance of one country there.

Originally posted by ServoHahn
After us, who else is going to want weapons there?

Every man and his dog, thats who. I envision the United States dissolving the OST and gaining a massive technological advantage and calling for a NPT style moratorium on space weapons. They will push for all countries to sign it in the interest of limiting the militarization of space (obviously to maintain the U.S advantage) and I dont think any coutry will accept that new treaty. Hence a complete militarization of Space from all countries. Including so-called rogue states such as North Korea and Iran. Who wins there?

Originally posted by ServoHahn
Will that change the way wars are fought?

Yes. Can you imagine the United States government fighting a war with no spy or communications satellites? They just could not do it. Imagine, no intel or satellite imagery or GPS? It would be back to the 1940's. The United States can try and protect all the assets in space but they will not be able to guarantee their 100% protection.

Lets say the Russians and Chinese respond in kind and put their weapons in space. The Russians and Chinese could pre-emptively wipeout ALL the United States space assets. Everyone knows that even with a missile shield in place the United States could not stop the complete nuclear annihilation of their country. The same applies in space. Launch enough offensive weapons and even the best defensive techniques will not be enough to protect your satellites.

Now the United States is at a massive disadvantage in the resulting Earthly war. Who's fault would that be? I would argue its the United States for being the first to weaponize space any way.

Originally posted by ServoHahn
How? Could the simple act of having weapons in space cause a war?

Wars are fought for a few reasons. Wealth, land and to maintain the status quo. e.g. Remember when Egypt nationalized the Suez canal? The world didnt accept it and war resulted to free up access to that vital bit of international infrastructure.

War could result from this purely as a means to prevent any one nation from dominating such a vital strategic area as outer space.

Originally posted by ServoHahn
With whom?

Everyone.

[edit on 25/5/05 by subz]

And what do you say Subz to the fact that we know the Russians have already put weapons in space?.... The evidence is in the link i provided, and this was done in the 1980s...and still the Russians have a military space program...

What do you say to the fact that this newest space arms race began in 1998, according to the Chinese military official Huang?.... That was during Clinton's administration and not during Bush' administration....

Again, you are trying to change the facts so it can fit your agenda against the US.

Both the Chinese and Russians are not able at this moment to keep up their space programs with the US space program. The Russians do not have enough money, they are still trying to catch up, and the Chinese are still modifying their technology with the help of the Russians, and with the military technology they were able to steal and buy from the US thanks to president Clinton. Althou we also do know that the CHinese have been able to steal some military secrets even during the Reagan administration, but nothing like what happened during Clinton's office terms.

Still, space has already been militarized for quite a while...arguing against the US new and improved space program is beyond stupid.

BTW, who in here still remembers how many countries signed a treaty some time ago that they would not be seeking to acquire nuclear weapons?..... and how many of those countries actually kept the promise set forth in that treaty?...

The Russians and Chinese want a stalemate at this moment in time, until they can catch up with the US, that's all this is about.

[edit on 25-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
And what do you say Subz to the fact that we know the Russians have already put weapons in space?.... The evidence is in the link i provided, and this was done in the 1980s...and still the Russians have a military space program...

The one that crashed, how the hell can you class that as a "weapon in space" when your very website you quote says it crashed into the Ocean? Youre deliberately exaggerating the truth here. There is only speculation that it contained a lazer but because it crashed into the ocean before deploying no one will ever know for sure. Also that was in 1987, a full 3 years after Reagan said he would militarize space.

Originally posted by Muaddib
What do you say to the fact that this newest space arms race began in 1998, according to the Chinese military official Huang?.... That was during Clinton's administration and not during Bush' administration....

I say that the space arms race started in 1984 with Reagans "Star Wars" program.

President Reagan speaking about SDI on December 28, 1984
On March 23, 1983, I announced my decision to take an important first step toward this goal by directing the establishment of a comprehensive and intensive research program, the Strategic Defense Initiative, aimed at eventually eliminating the threat posed by nuclear armed ballistic missiles.

Its well known that the United States government set out developing space weapons since atleast 1983. The space weapons race is U.S construct that was started, not for free access to space, but to counter ballistic missiles.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Again, you are trying to change the facts so it can fit your agenda against the US.

What facts would they be? Remember, merely saying it doesnt make it right

Lets look at your "facts" for a minute should we.

*On Oct. 1, 1992, the PRO and PKO Directorate was restructured into the Command of the Rocket and Space Defense (RKO). Colonel General Smirnov became officially the commander of the RKO forces. In 1997, RKO forces, along with Space Forces became the part of the Strategic Missile Forces (RVSN).

Originally posted by Muaddib
Command of the Rocket and Space Defense?....

Space Forces?...

That is not for militarization purposes right?...

Space forces as in anti-satellite missiles. If you read your own quote

became the part of the Strategic Missile Forces (RVSN).

These are missiles being launched from Earth, not Space.

The PRO = Antimissile Infrastructure Command
The PKO = Anti-satellite Infrastructure Command

Their locations?

Moscow, Reutov, Lutkarino and Dnepropetrovsk.

They are anti-satellite forces based on Earth. They never militarized space and match the capabilities of the United States in this respect.

I cant tell whether you failed to read your own links clearly and merely mis-quote them or you are purposely misrepresenting the facts.

Muaddibs "facts"

Originally posted by Muaddib
Both the Chinese and Russians are not able at this moment to keep up their space programs with the US space program. The Russians do not have enough money, they are still trying to catch up, and the Chinese are still modifying their technology with the help of the Russians, and with the military technology they were able to steal and buy from the US thanks to president Clinton.

Now here we agree. I said the very same thing in the post before this. Thats more than enough reason to believe the Russians and Chinese will not implement their space weapons. They cannot keep up and hence the deployment of U.S space weapons is not justified.

I dont think developing space weapons is a bad thing. If the United States maintained its Space Weapons edge without deploying them until it was clear the other side would do the same that would be acceptable. But more of this pre-emptive rubbish just isnt going to fly.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Althou we also do know that the CHinese have been able to steal some military secrets even during the Reagan administration, but nothing like what happened during Clinton's office terms.

Who's the partisan one around here again?

Originally posted by Muaddib
Still, space has already been militarized for quite a while...arguing against the US new and improved space program is beyond stupid.

Again, is it too much to ask for proof?

Originally posted by Muaddib
BTW, who in here still remembers how many countries signed a treaty some time ago that they would not be seeking to acquire nuclear weapons?..... and how many of those countries actually kept the promise set forth in that treaty?...

All of them. India and Pakistan were never in the NPT and the North Koreans withdrew from the NPT. Much like the United States withdrew from the ABM when it wanted to.

Originally posted by Muaddib
The Russians and Chinese want a stalemate at this moment in time, until they can catch up with the US, that's all this is about.

Until that changes then there is no need for the U.S to deploy the space weapons its been developing since 1983 then

[edit on 26/5/05 by subz]

Originally posted by subz
The one that crashed, how the hell can you class that as a "weapon in space" when your very website you quote says it crashed into the Ocean? Youre deliberately exaggerating the truth here. There is only speculation that it contained a lazer but because it crashed into the ocean before deploying no one will ever know for sure. Also that was in 1987, a full 3 years after Reagan said he would militarize space.

Did i lie?.... isn't this clearly stating that they were trying to militarize space back then, and even before?...

Look at the link again, those are satellites for military purposes, at least the ones we know about.

Originally posted by subz
I say that the space arms race started in 1984 with Reagans "Star Wars" program.

Pfft, are we going back in time even more?....

Since the 1960s the Chinese had been working on a space program..which includes militarizing space. Wake up Subz....the program is ran by the Chinese military.... surprise, surprise...what do you think the military wants to do with space?....a peaceful program?.... Riiight...

Originally posted by subz
What facts would they be? Remember, merely saying it doesnt make it right

What facts would they be?....everyone of them I gave a link and which proves the Chinese/Russians also want to militarize space.

Originally posted by subz
Lets look at your "facts" for a minute should we.

*On Oct. 1, 1992, the PRO and PKO Directorate was restructured into the Command of the Rocket and Space Defense (RKO). Colonel General Smirnov became officially the commander of the RKO forces. In 1997, RKO forces, along with Space Forces became the part of the Strategic Missile Forces (RVSN).

humm...let's see... SPACE DEFENSE

I guess SPACE defense for you doesn't mean the militarization of space.... That must have something to do with basketball right?.....

Originally posted by subz
These are missiles being launched from Earth, not Space.

Again Subz....what the heck does SPACE DEFENSE means?......

Originally posted by subz
Who's the partisan one around here again?

It has nothing to do with partisanship....it is the truth.

Originally posted by subz
Again, is it too much to ask for proof?

More than enough proof has been given....and Even the Chinese have stated that at least since 1998, they have revitalized once more their space program.

Think about it Subz, the PLA (People's Liberation ARMY of China) wants to put bases on the Moon...and you claim it is mainly for peaceful purposes?...

Originally posted by subz
All of them. India and Pakistan were never in the NPT and the North Koreans withdrew from the NPT. Much like the United States withdrew from the ABM when it wanted to.

Pretty much every country has either broken or choose not to be part of one treaty or another. Both, the Chinese and the Russians have been trying to militarize space since the 1960s, and they have been improving their space program since then.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Until that changes then there is no need for the U.S to deploy the space weapons its been developing since 1983 then

Then I guess until the US can put bases on the Moon the PLA don't need to put bases there either. Anyways, why have a space program run by a military agency such as the PLA if you want it for peaceful purposes? Why don't they make a civilian space agency?...... Oh wait, we are talking about China here, the PLA controls everything, i forgot.


[edit on 26-5-2005 by Muaddib]

DA.DUM..DU da da da

The US presents.....

STAR WARS
Episode one..... Bush the tyrant.

It is a critical time as the republic of the united states races to place weapons in orbit, The evil emperor GW. Bush has decided to place weapons in space against the protest of the populus below. Now a grave situation exists as that planets nations gear up for war.........