Nazi Superweapon based on Firedamp

'firedamp'

"Gas that occurs in coal mines and is explosive when mixed with air in certain proportions. It consists chiefly of methane (CH4, natural gas or marsh gas) but always contains small quantities of other gases, such as nitrogen, carbon dioxide, and hydrogen, and sometimes ethane and carbon monoxide"

This one looks interesting and caught my eye because of the inference that the SS refused to deploy it on Hitler's orders because the madman was trying to get them to use a weapon that could bring about a climatological cataclysm.

"After the failure of the Ardennes campaign, in March 1945 Hitler decided on a last desperate gamble. On his last appearance at the front, he exhorted his troops to hold out until the miracle weapon should be ready, which would bring about the change in Germany's fortunes. Posterity has been left few traces of the former flak weapon based on firedamp. In principle it generated a ferocious pressure wave at ground level, killing principally by blast and suffocation, but it had a knock-on effect which threatened a structural change to the atmosphere. The mysterious loss of Luftwaffe and OKW War Diaries for the month or so in question may have been connected with the execution of Luftwaffe General Barber and several hundred pilots and airfield commanders for refusing to implement orders to use it at the end of March 1945. When captured in May that year, Hermann Goering exclaimed that he had "declined to deploy a weapon which might have destroyed all civilisation," the interference being perhaps that the use of the explosive threatened to so destabilize the climate as to bring about the cataclysm, but that Hitler had nevertheless ordered its use against the Allies on the western front regardless."

It sounds like this was some kind of souped-up FAE with a mega-blast wave, probably focused somehow. I'm curious what kind of atmospheric disruption it could have caused that would have been so drastic.

firedamp

former flak weapon based on firedamp

Am I missing something here, but wouldnt the Americans have nabbed it at the end of the war and made it 'safer' or something and used for themselves?

I think that something like that should of been more monitored...what if it got into the wrong hands. Someone that would use it as they were about to lose a war, simply to end all civilization, with the whole "If I go, everyone goes" thought.

Originally posted by Omniscient
I think that something like that should of been more monitored...what if it got into the wrong hands. Someone that would use it as they were about to lose a war, simply to end all civilization, with the whole "If I go, everyone goes" thought.

It sounds like it WAS in the wrong hands, but luckily, the ones with sense disagreed. With the weapons that were being developed at the end of the war, I dread to think of the lengths Hitler would have gone to to win.

Kind of like a cornered animal, they get desperate.

Zanzibar,

The US military did develop a similar weapon, called a FAE, or Fuel Air Explosive.

"Until the BLU-82 came along, the biggest non-nuclear explosion obtainable was with a FAE (Fuel Air Explosives). FAE works by dropping a bomb that is actually a large aerosol dispenser. When the FAE "explodes" it first dispenses a large cloud of flammable material (anything like gasoline or propane will work). The cloud is then ignited and huge explosion results. There's one drawback, the size and density of the aerosol cloud depends a lot on the wind, air temperature and humidity. So the power of the explosion will vary a lot. But it's difficult to get a FAE to work in a bomb larger than 2000 pounds."

FAE (Fuel Air Explosives)

Omniscient,

I'm curious, if rumors of the escape of some 250,00 Nazis from Germany at the end of the war is true, and if they went to Antartica or someplace like that, if a weapon like this wasn't used to establish a stand-off, and bring about a secret treaty or something. I mean we have Admiral Byrd's crazy statements on returning from Antartica in 1947. Something happened to that expedition.

"Rumours began to circulate that whilst Germany had been defeated, a selection of military personnel and scientists had fled the fatherland as allied troops swept across mainland Europe, and had established themselves at a secret base on the Antarctic continent, from where they continued to develop their advanced aircraft technolgoy. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that at the end of the war, the allies determined that there were 250,000 Germans unaccounted for - even taking into account casualties and deaths.

In an interview with Lee van Atta published in "El Mercurio" of Santiago, Chile on 13 March 1947 under the heading "On board Mount Olympus on the High Seas" we have the following extraordinary statement from Admiral Byrd:

"Admiral Byrd declared today that it was imperative for the US to initiate immediately defence measures against hostile regions. The Admiral further stated that he didn't want to frighten anyone unduly, but it was a bitter reality that in the course of a new war the continental US would be attacked by flying objects which could fly from pole to pole at incredible speeds. Admiral Byrd repeated the above points of view resulting from his personal knowledge before a news conference for International News Services.""

statement from Admiral Byrd




[edit on 15-5-2005 by Icarus Rising]

Fuel air munitions from the Daisy Cutter to the MOAB are big bombs, to be sure, but are also so large that they must be dropped by C-130's.

I'm thinking Fat Herman would have few scruples about using such a bomb on the basis of his history, but would have had a hard time lifting it to a target.

If Byrd had been fighting runaway Nazis at the South Pole he'd have written 4 books and 2 movie treatments about it.

No, no. The "firedamp" weapon gets its name through Renato Vesco's treatment of the subject. It was built for air-air purposes by the Germans but not employed to a great extent. The person behind this was Dr. Hans Freidrich Gold but that's all I am going to say about that.

The fuel-air weapon has a different origin. It was invented by another German scientist, Dr. Mario Zippermayr (oftern incorrectly spelled Zippermayer or ..mier). He did this at Lofter in the Tyrol in his own lab. The fuel-air bomb was kept secret after the war by ascribing a cover story to Zippermayr's work, calling it a "vortex cannon", a story reported widely. Zippermayr worked out the math and his calculations (from 5 papers obtained via FOIA) state that the explosion could be over a mile in circumference. Zippermayr used coal dust but gasoline or almost anything could be used. The Zippermayr bomb was the mother of the MOAB (mother of all bombs) made famous in the latest Iraq war.

Forschung,

Thanks for the informed reply. Sure you don't have a little more to say about the firedamp weapon, what it is and can do? Is it really true that it could do what they said? Did the SS and Luftwaffe refuse to deploy it, and were those who refused executed?

I am deeply curious about this project. Before I came across it in the website linked above, I had never heard of firedamp or any catastrophic weapon based on it. You seem to know more than you have shared so far. Please overcome your reluctance, if possible, to answer my questions, or add anything you can. Thanks again.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Forschung,

Thanks for the informed reply. Sure you don't have a little more to say about the firedamp weapon, what it is and can do? Is it really true that it could do what they said? Did the SS and Luftwaffe refuse to deploy it, and were those who refused executed?

I am deeply curious about this project. Before I came across it in the website linked above, I had never heard of firedamp or any catastrophic weapon based on it. You seem to know more than you have shared so far. Please overcome your reluctance, if possible, to answer my questions, or add anything you can. Thanks again.

The "bible" on this is Renato Vesco (Intercept UFO, 1976). It has been reprinted by David Hatcher Childress as Man-Made UFOS 1944-1994, Adventures Unlimited Press Dr. Hans Friedrich Gold did develop this technology and had some even more interesting ideas. It took me years to get the US govenment to send me this information and I had to file an appeal of a FOIA request which was declined as "no record", the standard response. Besides this there is a document also obtained via FOIA on microfilm titled "Headquarters Unites states Strategic AirForces In Europe Office of the Director of Intelligence--An Evaluation Of Germ Capabilities In 1945" This was written in 1944. "Firedamp" as you call it is probably the least interesting technology/weapon which the Allies expected in the following year. The Gold document is called: Interrogation of Dr. Hans Friedrich Gold. This is a Combined Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee report. To get this you have to request it under provisions of the FOIA and direct it to the US National Archives and Records Administration, College Park, MD. Please insist they have this file, they do, and threaten an appeal at once should they fail to produce the document immediately.

Or, you can await a book coming out later this year with all this information and much, much more. As I say, if this technology makes you wet, well, you have some intellectual organisms in your future.

Hey, I didn't say I was about to get off over this, or anything. And as far as getting wet, I am on a long dryspell, landlocked, you might say.

Thank you for the additional info, though. I'm not going to let the Feds know I'm on to them just yet with a FOIA request. I have some sources I'm working in the meantime. I'll look into the books you mentioned and keep an eye out for the coming one, as well. How much of what this Gold guy said is reliable, anyway? Sometimes these guys would say anything to get easy treatment after the war. I saw his name mentioned in connection with ZPE on another website. What all was he into?

Maybe this firedamp thing was so powerful as a flak weapon that the blast would blow out the atmosphere and create such a vacuum that the resulting rush of air was powerful enough to create monster weather patterns, or I don't know, maybe punch a hole all the way through to space, and start a leak or something. That would be doomsdayish.

Please tell me about this website where you saw Gold and ZPE. This is close.

If you really ant to read about wild speculation of Nazi super science, then there is a book published in 2004 called ' Reich of the Black Sun '. The author lays claims to some incredibly exotic claims about Nazi super weapons.

Icarus, I have a copy on pdf, if you want one then u2u me your email. This book it seems would be right up your alley

[edit on 29-5-2005 by rogue1]

rogue1,

I don't think this is wild speculation. 'Reich of the Black Sun' sounds interesting, though. I might try to pick up a copy. Thanks for the tip.

As far as my alley goes, you would probably have to say alleys. I have a bunch of different conspiracy and non-related interests.

I have the Reich of the Black Sun. Nothing in it on Gold though but there is one reference to the 1944 "An Evaluation Of German Capabilities in 1945" which describes this method as one of the ways gas was to be used to stop aircraft in flight. Fuzzy picture of a Z-4 computer on page 188. The Molecular Bomb stuff in interesting but Thomas Mehner has more of it in his books.

Farrell's book is pretty tame compared to what is in German language and what will come in English in a year or so--with documentation. It is hardly wild speculation.

[edit on 30-5-2005 by Forschung]

greyfalcon.us...

Liquid Air bomb

As the research on the atomic bomb under Graf von Ardenne and others was not proceeding as rapidly as had been hoped in 1944, it was decided to proceed with the development of a liquid air bomb. Experiments using ordinary powdered coal were not at all successful, but extremely good results were obtained from a mixture consisting of 60% finely powdered dry brown coal and 40% liquid air. The technical man responsible for this work was Dr. Zippelmeier. The first trial was made on the Doberitz grounds near Berlin using a charge of about 8 kg of powder in a thin tin plate container. The liquid air was poured on to the powder, and the two were mixed together with a long wooden stirrer.

Kreutzfeld did this himself, and was present at the ensuing test. In an area of radius 500 to 600 meters trees, etc. were all completely destroyed. Thereafter the explosion started to rise and only the tops of the trees were affected, although the intensive explosion covered an area 2 km. in radius. Zippelmeier then had the idea that a better effect might be obtained it the powder was spread out in the form of a cloud before the explosion. Trials were made with a paper container impregnated with some waxy substance. A metal cylinder was attached to the lower end of this container and hit the ground first, dispersing the powder. After a short time interval of the order of 1/4 second a small charge in the metal cylinder exploded and ignited the dark funnel shaped dust - liquid air cloud. The bombs had to be filled immediately prior to the departure of the aircraft.

Bombs with charges of 25 and 50 kg. of powder were dropped on the Starbergersee, and photographs of the explosion were taken. Standartenführer Klumm kept a photograph of the result and showed it to Brandt (Himmler's personal adviser). The intensive explosion covered an area 4 to 4.5 km radius, and the explosion was still felt on a radius 12.5 km. When the bomb was dropped on an airfield, much destruction was caused 12 km away, and all the trees on a hillside 5 to 6 km away were flat. On a radius of 12.5 km. only the tops of the trees were destroyed. [British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee, "Information Obtained from Targets of Opportunity in the Sonthofen Area," BIOS Target numbers C 28/8.211, C 25/549, C 6/137, C 30/ 338, C 4/268, C 22/2182, C 21/601].

This is not so easy to dismiss since Bios numbers are cited...

Can any one speculate on whats at work here that can make a 25-50kg bomb result in 600-900m radius blast radius. Whats the maximum blast radius of FAE or MOAB?

Those stats are simply amazing. A blast radius of 12.5km? That is huge!

From what I have been able to find so far this morning, the blast radius of the FAE and MOAB are said to be 150m. The new Russian FOAB, or "father of all bombs" is claimed to have a br of 300m, double the MOAB (see ex sourced below). Which makes the numbers for the "firedamp" bomb even more staggering. How reliable are the figures you quoted?

On 11 September 2007 the Russian military announced that it had tested what it called the "Father of All Bombs". Described as the world's most powerful non-nuclear air-delivered munition, the Russian military claimed it was four times more powerful than the American "Mother Of All Bombs." While the Russian bomb was reported to contain 7.8 tons of "thermobaric" explosive, compared to the more than 8 tons of explosives in the American bomb, the Russian bomb was said to use more highly efficient explosive, with a yield equivalent to 44 tons of TNT. The bomb was reported to have a blast radius of 300 meters, double that of the American bomb, while the temperature at the epicenter was also reported to be twice as high.

source

Based on these figures, the "firedamp" weapon is several orders of magnitude more powerful than any conventional bomb in use today. Can anybody verify these figures?

Just a few more links

missilegate.com...

The bomb was not a nuclear weapon, and it appears to have been a conventional explosive which used a reagent or catalyst produced by Tesla methodology or similar for its inexplicable effect.

greyfalcon.us...

The above site has interesting exchange at Nurmberg over potential usage of this devise. At first I thought Speers dismissal concluded the affair, but all the nazi secrete weapons project was known only a few people and Speer was not one of them. I gather that 86 different rocket/missile projects were in various stated of development when the war ended and as many as 15,000 guided missiles may have been built. But true to nazi beaurcratic incompetance, the 15,000 missles were divided over two dozen advanced designs and as a result only a few reached the troops. .... and only ~ 5000 of those may have been stock piled for usage, the rest wasted on development and training.

Its a matter of speculation but following standard mass production models, that 15,000 missiles over two dozen types, could have been refocused into about 45,000 guided missiles of one or two designs and more than 3/4 of those would have been available for operational usage.



[edit on 15-2-2008 by psteel]

I just emailed my Russian friend [crazy Ivan] who's studies these rare phenomina for decades and he seems to confirm the 'reports' of something definately happening.

This exact story (literally, same wording) appeared initially in a Wunderwaffe book by a Polish intel guy which is expensive and hard to find on amazon for some reason. It is repeated in a book called 'SS brotherhood of the bell' which i have (eBay). I heard the same story, including russian threats to retaliate with gas, from some German guys who are no longer alive. Supposedly references to this thing exist in Nuremberg trial records. I heard of it referred to as 'compression grenade' and being implemented even in 88mm (why didn't they use it for AAA then ???). What i was told was that it destroyed the lungs of air-breathing creatures in 500m radius. I actually had some ideas about it but they are for coffee discussion. The multi-km damage radius described in the story is obviously in excess of even smaller nukes and does not seem realistic. Original refs have no mention of Tesla, who most likely had nothing to do with it.

My guess is that at the time no one could possibly even conceive of such level of destruction from what sounds like a chemical reaction and therefore if the thing happened to work by accident it would have wiped out everyone involved in the test because they would not have thought of keeping far enough away.

RE their A-b project , there are references in the same 2 books as to them
having succeeded but perhaps with a design drastically different from current ones.

query.nytimes.com...

liquid air explosive tested in 1900.... so this stuff actually existed, but that was 1900. 45 years more research... who knows.


www.patentstorm.us...

1929 US patent involving diseminating dust explosive combined with liquid air explosive to increase destructive effect. No mention of how much more unfortunately.

discaircraft.greyfalcon.us...

another article

[edit on 13-3-2008 by psteel]

As to the efficacy and developmental potential of the "Coal--Damp" bombs under discussion:

1) FAD (Fuel-Air-Device)

For all the hype these are very tempermental weapons with wildly varying effects dependent upon local atmoshpheric conditions, and, at least until quite recently, more dangerous to the constructors and carriers than to any intended target. For the German version to have the area of effect claimed for it the dispersion of the combustible mixture, whether "Liquid Air" and Powdered Coal, or petrochemical aerosol, would have to be impossibly efficient, a state altogether unobtainable for technologies available in 1944--45. This being said, any sufficiently volatized substance--even flour--acts as an explosive when sparked in ordinary air of a pressure suitable for human survival. Near Ground Zero, a 55kg charge of LOX and Coal Dust could possibly create a massive concussion wave BUT IN NO CASE WOULD THAT REACTION BE ANYWHERE NEAR AS POWERFUL AS THE EXPLOSION OF ANY MAJOR LIQUID FUEL BOOSTER ROCKET WOULD BE. To illustrate this, simply view one of the several films on record of V2 launches gone wrong. Since a V2 carried quite a bit more than 55kg of LOX (as oxydizer) and Tetrazine Hydrate (as Fuel), the detonation subsequent to dispersion of liberated oxydizer by vapor pressure alone would exceed that of the bomb in question by a factor of 25. Oh, and, as an added Easter Egg, the V2 had a half ton of High Explosive at the top, kind of like the cherry atop an ice cream Sundae.
In view of this, the claims aired for the German FAD are entirely ridiculous. You'd get a better effect by rolling V2s down a long hill at the invading Allied troops than you would with the "Coal Damp Device".

-Wild Bill Cox