Electromagnatism and your house

What you do know can help you.

within the confines of my limited knowlegde of phsyics, i ponder...

does the massive influx of unwarrented electromagnetic forces brought upon by the ugent swelling of electrically powered devices in such a vast plethora of districts create an exponential growth that would be harmful to the human psyci?

ive been under the watchful guise of my electric counter parts for my entire life, currently residing at the epicenter of an electrically charged meca i can sometimes feel a vast upsurge with every television turned on. think back to the 80's and 90's, there wasnt such a compact occurence of electronically controlled equipment, with the advent of condensed electronics would these changes, and dangers to our health go unnoticed by the general public?

[edit on 15-5-2005 by sturod84]

The electromagnetic is different than magnets that people have known how to deal with for thousands of years, such as magnets for orientation and magnets to effect accupressure points and releave pain, or even to take MRI scans with.

Newer technologies seem to be turning to the Radio Frequency electromagnetic science that Nicola Tesla experiemented with. That whether they understand the basic scientific principles of it or not.

The resulting effects of all the current technologys that are of both wired and wireless electrical alternating current is that the human body and brain systems that are also based on alternating electrical currents are being affected both subconsciously and in health.

So when you get tired of that electrical appliance overload that makes you feel like you took too much of a Tylenol type medication, then you can get relief by going out in your yard, or to a place out in the country where there are a few less power transformers and RF based appliances such as computers or microwave ovens, etc. Even a few hours of sort of realigning with a type of environment that our DNA codes are more used to can give you the healing and strength to go back inside and watch the electrons hitting pixels some more, or just balance the heating of your dinner with cooling a humid house.

the park is acrross the street thank goodness, i think im being paranoid, the power lines run through the park. it could have an effect but then again the human bod is a toll used to punishment and should be abble to stave off any more harsh effects from the electronics.

[edit on 3-10-2005 by sturod84]

I personally think that the bigger threat from the billions of electronic devices is more psychological then physical, to be completely honest.

You should be more worried about the sun's radiation then electric appliances, especially now that the earths magnetic field is fading (close to turning).

Undoubtly anything, be it radiowaves, electromagnetic waves, plain sunshine or rain, will have an effect on living things, consciously or subconsciously.
But damaging? I don't know, seeing most of these waves were around before we started using electricity.

as far as i know, my moms good friend is really into that kidna stuff, and basically, you don't want to be near or within a certain radius of any power points or electronic devices for long periods of time. ie, putting the head of your bed against one, or say if there was a tv on the other side of the wall from your head while you sleep, is no good. you also don't want to live near or under those huge power lines/stations.

for both sides of the story,

here is a site which argues against the idea, saying there is nothing to worry about: no worries

and here is one that argues for: new information on EMF's

Has anyone ever heard of Geopathic stress, Ley lines and Hartmann lines??

If the theories about them are correct, they can be very detrimental to our health. But I don't know for sure if the theories are indeed true.

Its a concern, yes. I'd be more worried about chemical intake though. Tons of synthetic chemicals are in our food and water. If you want to be "natural" first look at food and water, then look at air quality, then finally worry about EM radiation.

Porqueria ta na tur caminda. (Filth is everywhere)

In our food, our drinks, our air, our medicine. Everywhere. And if the the geopathic stress theory with the claims of it's effects on our health is true, then it's just as important. Untill now I'm not sure.

Here is some info on geopathic stress:

What Is Geopathic Stress?

Health hazards and electromagnetic fields.

Geopathic stress






[edit on 3-10-2005 by TheBandit795]

It's a unique idea, but part of me thinks that the geopathic stress theory might be like cancer clusters.

If you look hard enough at a community map, you may see groupings of people who have come down with cancer in a cluster. Then you look for some connection - power lines, water supply, etc. But the fact is that sometimes these things occur by chance. I think that from some of the descriptions, some of these things might be the same thing, like the cattle "avoiding" an area. I mean, Cattle don't graze in nice, neat patterns.

Then there was the bit about "bad insects" and pests "liking" areas of geopathic stress, while other "good" animals and organisms avoided them. That sounds like utter rubbish.

I do not mean offense, but this stuff really, really sounds like junk science.

I'd be interested if people can actually "feel" very strong magnetic fields. It would be cool to run a test. You have a person setting inside an upright tube, and you have a movable electromagnet. You vary the strength and see if the person can "feel" where the field is eminating from.

[edit on 4-10-2005 by Toxic Fox]

[edit on 4-10-2005 by Toxic Fox]

honestly? To be blunt, I think it's all a load of BS. I work in the I.T. industry, and for the last 8 odd years have been in front of or around computers, wireless gear etc etc on average 10hrs/day. My health hasn't deteriorated, I don't have cancer, I haven't gone blind, I don't have sleeping problems, no allergies, nothing, nudda.

While yes I am sure living under extremely high voltage power lines can cause health problems (no more different from taking high doses of calcium, or eating too much, or sleeping too much etc etc...as the saying goes, everything in moderation), the normal day-to-day exposure to electromagnetic waves poses no threat at all. If it did I should be experiencing some sort of side effect by now.

Personally I think this either all started from someone who experienced the negative effects of living under high voltage power lines, then got a bit carried away, decided all electrical goods were evil mk, and the "fad" kinda caught on, or someone seriously afraid of technology made up a story, managed to convince a few people that is was true and things just got a little out of hand after that. But... that's just my opinion. Only time will tell if I'm right or not.

Wasn't this the entire plot behind the movie: Johnny Mnemnonic? What was it called? NAS? Nerve attunation syndrom or something like that? How often is it that life imitates art (well, if you want to call that art with wired up net hacking dolphins)?

I too spend my working hours around many, many computers and other electronic devices and have done so for the last 10 years. I don't notice any ill effects other than my lack of a decent suntan.

It all seems kind of hyped to me. I mean, sure, I suppose any EM wave has the potential to cause cell death/dysfunction but the dose rate would have to be so small as to be hardly worth considering in most situations. Most cells could repair or regenerate faster than they could be killed, so I'm kind of thinking there wouldn't be much in the way of a deterministic risk (physical risks in the short term due to cell damage). Long term Stochastic effects are technically possible from any dose, but for most people (especially smokers and people who are in the sun frequently) have far more to worry about than whether or not their cell phone is nukerating them.

I'm not really too worried, for now it seems like the benefits of EM technology out weigh the risks.

Originally posted by sturod84
the park is acrross the street thank goodness, i think im being paranoid, the power lines run through the park. it could have an effect but then again the human bod is a toll used to punishment and should be abble to stave off any more harsh effects from the electronics.

[edit on 3-10-2005 by sturod84]

I just did some calculations for a pair of power lines to see what kind of electric and magnetic fields they produce. I won't bore you with the calculations, but I will show you what values I used, taking typical values for power lines.

Electric field: if you have a power line pair that has 1.5 meters between the lines, is 5 meters high, are 2 centimeters in radius, and has 765 kilovolts between them, and you stand directly below them, the electric field is 5.2 kilovolts per meter in this case. I'm not certain whether this is enough to cause biological damage. (765kV is actually a lot, many power lines are less than this, but it's the highest typical value I could find)

Magnetic field: if you have the same power line pair and you stand directly beneath it again, and you have 3 kiloamps of current in it, then you get a magnetic field of 9.24x10^-6 teslas. The earth's magnetic field is 5x10^-4 teslas. This means that the earth's magnetic field is 54 times stronger than the magnetic field directly underneath power lines in this case. So if you stand under a power line, you are being exposed to about 2% more magnetic field than if you were sitting in the middle of the wilderness.

Whether or not these values are biologically significant I have no idea. That continues to be debated by many people. Based on what my professors at university have said, the mainstream view appears to be that these values are essentially harmless.

If you want to see the equations I used, they're kind of complicated to put into a forum, but I could draw them in mspaint and post them on imageshack or something like that. (the derivations took me 2 pages for the electric field and 1 page for the magnetic field, so I refuse to post them, as I don't have a scanner, lol)

A few things:

750kV is pretty high. Only place I've ever heard that used that high of a voltage for transmission was this area in Russia/Siberia.

Also, 5 meters seems REALLY LOW for such a high-voltage line. Also, you would usually have three lines for three phases, not just two lines. Sometimes you also have lines with the same voltage (frequency offset) in parallel with each other, so you have six lines.

Also, you have to be careful when dealing with three-phase power. I'm not sure if the voltage is the peak AC voltage on each phase, the voltage between two phases (which is higher) or the RMS DC equivalent voltage (110V outlet is the DC equivalent RMS.)

[edit on 9-10-2005 by Toxic Fox]

750kV is pretty high. Only place I've ever heard that used that high of a voltage for transmission was this area in Russia/Siberia.

Yes, 750kV IS really high. It was the highest value I could find that was actually used in real power lines. Typical values are quite a bit lower. I was trying to set up a 'worst-case scenario' with the values I picked.

Also, 5 meters seems REALLY LOW for such a high-voltage line.

Also true. The 5 meter value I used was actually more typical for a 20kV line, but, again, I am trying to make a worst-case, where the electric field I get at the end is as high as it will ever likely be in any power line case, no matter where you live. If the power engineer is not a complete idiot, he/she would put that high voltage wires higher above the ground.

Also, you would usually have three lines for three phases, not just two lines. Sometimes you also have lines with the same voltage (frequency offset) in parallel with each other, so you have six lines.

I didn't think of that... As an extremely rough approximation, you could just triple the value I got to find an upper limit to the electric field for six lines. The average electric field would be much lower than that, though, because of the frequency variation in the lines.

Also, you have to be careful when dealing with three-phase power. I'm not sure if the voltage is the peak AC voltage on each phase, the voltage between two phases (which is higher) or the RMS DC equivalent voltage (110V outlet is the DC equivalent RMS.)

Also a good point. Typically in power applications, all voltages given are RMS, since they use AC current. Therefore, to find a peak voltage, you multiply by square root of 2. So the value I calculated was an average electric field. The peak would be then about 7.3kV/m instead of 5.2.

In my power engineering textbook, I found a table that gives maximum ground-level electric field strengths. For the 765kV case, it's given maximum is 10.0 kVrms/m. For a 23kVrms case (1 phase) it gives 0.01 to 0.025 kVrms/m, and for 23kVrms case (3 phase) it gives 0.01 - 0.05 kVrms/m. (so the maximum going from the 1 phase case, which I did, to the 3 phase case, which is real life, is about double, rather than the rough tripling I suggested above)

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne

Originally posted by sturod84
the park is acrross the street thank goodness, i think im being paranoid, the power lines run through the park. it could have an effect but then again the human bod is a toll used to punishment and should be abble to stave off any more harsh effects from the electronics.

[edit on 3-10-2005 by sturod84]

I just did some calculations for a pair of power lines to see what kind of electric and magnetic fields they produce. I won't bore you with the calculations, but I will show you what values I used, taking typical values for power lines.

Electric field: if you have a power line pair that has 1.5 meters between the lines, is 5 meters high, are 2 centimeters in radius, and has 765 kilovolts between them, and you stand directly below them, the electric field is 5.2 kilovolts per meter in this case. I'm not certain whether this is enough to cause biological damage. (765kV is actually a lot, many power lines are less than this, but it's the highest typical value I could find)

Magnetic field: if you have the same power line pair and you stand directly beneath it again, and you have 3 kiloamps of current in it, then you get a magnetic field of 9.24x10^-6 teslas. The earth's magnetic field is 5x10^-4 teslas. This means that the earth's magnetic field is 54 times stronger than the magnetic field directly underneath power lines in this case. So if you stand under a power line, you are being exposed to about 2% more magnetic field than if you were sitting in the middle of the wilderness.

Whether or not these values are biologically significant I have no idea. That continues to be debated by many people. Based on what my professors at university have said, the mainstream view appears to be that these values are essentially harmless.

If you want to see the equations I used, they're kind of complicated to put into a forum, but I could draw them in mspaint and post them on imageshack or something like that. (the derivations took me 2 pages for the electric field and 1 page for the magnetic field, so I refuse to post them, as I don't have a scanner, lol)

Unless it's a DC transmission line you won't find high voltage conductors running in pairs.
It's always three conductors for three phase power.

Unless otherwise ID'd the lines I'm talking about are AC lines.

1.5 meters is too little separation for 765kv as is the 5 meter height.

Were these apparently low lines on steel towers or wooden poles?
(There are also steel, fiberglass and cement poles that carry electrical conductors, but steel towers and wooden poles are the most common.)

What you were probably looking at is a low voltage distribution line - so named because it distributes power to neighborhoods etc.
These distribution lines in the Western US generally run voltages of 2.4kv, 4kv, 12kv and 16kv.
There are some 34.5kv distribution lines, but 34.5kv in most cases is a transmission voltage.
You can tell the difference between transmission lines and distribution lines by checking for transformers on the line.
These transformer secondaries supply houses etc.

Some Eastern USA lines operate at 745kv.
500kv & 240kv is a common transmission voltage.

Western USA lines operate at 220kv and 230 kv (incidentally these are nominal voltages and the 220kv lines are actually energized at about 240kv).
There is a Western USA backbone of 500kv transmission lines.

(There is a mid-level transmission system that runs at 66kv, 69kv, 138kv and the aforementioned 34.5kv. Specific levels can be different between companies. Sorta depends on what they started with many years ago and they seldom change.)

As far as really high voltage stuff in the Western USA there are several DC lines that used to operate at 750kv and now operate at 1000kv. (One million volts.)

There's a lot of talk about cancer clusters due to living close to high voltage AC lines, but it's more of a welfare for lawyers deal than it is an actual problem.

The thing that most forget or are not particularly interested in researching is the cause of death for utility workers who spend their days in close proximity to high voltage AC lines.
From personal experience, utility employees bite the dust for the same reasons the average American does.

Spoken as a power station operator for over thirty years and also having lived in close proximity to high voltage AC lines for two years at one time and 15 years another time.
I'm still in good health as is my wife and my observations during the 15 year period living close to major AC transmission lines is that it was one of the healthiest periods in my life.

So, perhaps living in a magnetic field is good for you if a subjective opinion counts....

There are 1000kV lines in the US? My information must be very old! Again, the highest I've heard was 750kV in Russia.

Originally posted by Toxic Fox
There are 1000kV lines in the US? My information must be very old! Again, the highest I've heard was 750kV in Russia.

Yes.
DC lines as mentioned.

They started off at 750kv and a few years down the road a decision to operate them at 1000kv was made.

It's conceivable the operating voltage update wasn't considered earth shaking enough to change line name listings and the names still show on public listings as the XYZ 750kv line. (A made-up example of line naming.)

Guys,

I'm not gonna calculate the values right now, but most of you guys are apparently adding together 3 phase values, rather than canceling the phases against each other!!!! There is superposition in effect, and the system is a closed loop, which means if current is flowing one way in one phase, the other 2 have to have a sum of current to cancel that current in the opposite direction. Do you recall Kirchoff? And therefore the B fields are nearly cancelling each other out at the ground level. Likewise, if there is positive voltage on one line, there is a sum of approximately ZERO voltage over the 3 lines in sum. Again due to Kirchoff's Voltage Law.

In other words, at any reasonable distance from the lines, where that distance is significantly higher than the physical distance between the phases, the EM effects will cancel to zero....

You guys, come on!! This is basic stuff, check your methods, or you will be in power systems again next semester.

The DC TLs are a different story, good point Desert Dawg. But I also think they run through some highly unpopulated and remote areas. But I might look that up, that sounds interesting.

TheMesh