Who's lying?

Originally posted by jake1997
The Parisees actually did see but their greed for power caused them to reject Christ.

In their arrogance they only thought they saw the Truth in what they read. Had they seen the Truth, when they saw Jesus, they would have been made blind.

They were expert in the scripture but could not submit.

That's what I said: "...they were too full of the words they read and their own arrogance."

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

As you said, by their fruits they will be known. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Your coming around ralphy

Originally posted by jake1997
Your coming around ralphy

I have not been anywhere but where I am for the last 15 years.

And, I would rather be blind without reading the bible, than unable to see with one.

quote: Another topic is that in the Catholic religion, when we pray to Mary to ask her son Jesus to help us in our times of need, that we are worshipping a false idol. A true Catholic knows that we do not pray to Mary for her intervention, just to ask if she would ask her son to help.

Answer from Jake////What did Jesus say to do? Does anyone in the bible pray to dead people?

YES THEY DO!

many times this has come up in discussion in religious conversations.....YES this was always the case in the Old Testament and continues today.

Saints are people who lived a good life with prayers and fasting......and because of this God has allowed them to ...
''Quote// become temples of the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 6:19; 3:17), Christ dwelling by faith in their hearts (Ephesians 3:17) and by fruitful love also fulfilling the commandments of God the Father.
Establishing themselves in the Holy Spirit through grace-bestowing ascetic labors, the Saints participate in the life of the Trinity, becoming sons of the Holy Trinity, temples of the Living God (II Corinthians 6:16); their whole lives thus flow from the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit.

Also.....The pious veneration of holy relics,
based on their miraculous nature, originated from Divine Revelation. Even in the Old Testament God deigned to celebrate with miracles the holy relics of certain of those who were well-pleasing to Him.
Thus, by the touch of the holy relics of the Prophet Elisea, a dead man was resurrected.
The tomb and bones of this Prophet, who had prophesied to Jeroboam the destruction of idolatrous altars, were greatly revered in Judea.
The Patriarch Joseph also left a testament to the sons of Israel to preserve his bones in Egypt and, during their exodus, to carry them to the promised land (Genesis 50:25).

www.orthodoxphotos.com...

So it is that the handkerchiefs of the holy apostle Paul healed the ill and expelled unclean spirits (Acts 19:12).
With his mantle the Prophet Elias struck the water, separating the waters of the Jordan, and along the dry bed of the river crossed the Jordan with his disciple Elisea (IV Kings 2:8).
The prophet Elisea did the very same thing, himself, with the same mantle, after the taking-up of Elias into heaven (IV Kings 2:14).
All this has its verification and source in the Divine power that rested in the garments of the Savior, which encompassed His most pure and Divine body. Moreover, by His inexpressible love for man, the Divine Lord allows the servants of His Divinity to work miracles not only through their bodies and clothing, but even with the shadow of their bodies, which is evident in an occurrence with the holy apostle Peter: his shadow healed an ill man and expelled unclean spirits (Acts 5:15-16).

"The Saints have become according to grace that which the Lord Christ is according to nature.
That is, they have become gods according to grace: pure and living habitations of God. For God says: 'I will dwell in them, walk in them, and I will be their God' (II Corinthians 6:16; Leviticus 16:12).
The Holy Scriptures likewise say: 'the souls of the righteous are in God's hand, and death cannot lay hold of them' (Wisdom of Solomon 3:1). For death is rather the sleep of Saints than their death. Further: 'Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His Saints' (Psalm 119:6). What, then, is more precious than to be in the hand of God?
For God is life and light, and those who are in God's hand are in life and light. Further, that God dwells even in their bodies in a spiritual manner the all-divine Apostle attests: 'Know ye not that your bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit dwelling in you?' (I Corinthians 3:16).
And, 'the Lord is Spirit' (II Corinthians 3:17).

Christ is Risen
helen....

I dont know if your blind or not. I dont know how much you know or believe vs willfull choice.

In sticking with the topic however, I've given an answer based on scripture. Looking at the title, it was inevitable that there would be sharp, even heated disagreement. One thing that a christian can never comprimise on is Christs word because once you do so on one part, you are bound to do more on another.

--

Ya know what this is really about? Doctrine.

Ive moved away from catholic and the reason for that was doctrine.
In Revelation we are told about doctrine (among other places) and its important to find out what this means

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.


If you put some time into that..and then study the elements in the opening post.. you may change your stance a bit

[edit on 15-5-2005 by jake1997]

Originally posted by jake1997
I dont know if your blind or not. I dont know how much you know or believe vs willfull choice.

I do not know if I am blind or not. I will not judge any man's heart, including my own. I know only that God loves me, and by His will I will love as He does.

Ya know what this is really about? Doctrine.

No man can say Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. There are differences in gifts, there are differences of administration, there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which works in all.


[edit on 15-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

Jake1997,


I just wanted to ask you why it is the Catholic religion riles you up so much? I don't mean to pry (and disregard this message if it offends you:stfu but you said you used to be a Catholic and now you are not. Why is that may I ask? I mean, I catch an undertone of strong dislike for anyone who tries to defend the Catholic beliefs, catholic or otherwise. I could be wrong, but thought I'd ask anyways.

[edit on 15-5-2005 by seraph5]

On the undertone thing... your reading between the lines at something that is not there.
If we were tlaking face to face instead of typing, you would see the difference. I think the perceived tone is because you are steadfast on one side and I on the other.
For my part, I have a habbit of simply stating information instead of 'communicating'. Im sure this comes over very rough.

Your right.. I use to be catholic
When someone told me the stuff Im telling you..I didnt believe them. Mostly I really didnt care. it was just religion.
4 years later it was a different story. I read the bible cover to cover.
I saw with my own eyes. I even counted the years which added up to 6000. I didnt know it had been done before.

Was it real or not was the only question. As if someone was reading my mind...a couple days after I finished there was a knock at the door. It was JW season and they were happy to provide all the answers I wanted. I thought they must be pretty good to use the name Jehova(sp?).
The very next day at my inlaws some people from my inlaws old church showed up.
They told everything I needed to know about JWs..
so I arranged a cage match between those two ole ladies and the two JW guys.
The ole ladies won. It was bible vs bible. I prayed the sinners prayer right there with them and started attending their church.
That was when I discovered that its not about religion. Its not about anything I had been taught. Its about a direct one on one relationship with Christ.
No priests or confessionals
No hail marys or our fathers for pennance
No need to go up and get the waffer to commune with God

Jesus already did EVERYTHING. All I had to do was believe that...and then live my life for Him.

So when I look at the rcc...I have to wonder where all that extra baggage came from. There is no pennance. Jesus did it all. I am saved by the grace of God and I dont need any group or person to go between now.
Its just me, and God... in the name of Jesus.

Thats all.
I will never hate catholics , my entire family is still catholic/agnostic
I will never hate muslims
I will never hate JWs/mormons/Hindu's/etc

But...the doctrine ..if its not of God...then it must be of .... ?

There ya have it

Originally posted by jake1997
I even counted the years which added up to 6000. I didnt know it had been done before.

Do you really believe the universe is that young?

[edit on 15-5-2005 by riley]

Yes.
Because its in the bible.

The same way Israel became a nation again by the word of God from 2550 years ago....i also believe Genesis.

I do not see any concrete evidence to the contrary either. Just vain imaginations. No facts.

Add to all of it... I pray to God....and he answers....so now I am hopeless. I am sold out to the Lord

Can i just point out even if Darwin did renounce evolution on his deathbed it doesnt affect the fact that evolution has been poven multiple times. Even if u think that things like the dinosaurs and mammoths and carbon dating just remember that evolution has happened in human times as well.

Virus' evolve before our eyes and breeding between cats and dogs has created multiple new species this is evolution no matter what Darwin said

Originally posted by Shenroon
Can i just point out even if Darwin did renounce evolution on his deathbed it doesnt affect the fact that evolution has been poven multiple times. Even if u think that things like the dinosaurs and mammoths and carbon dating just remember that evolution has happened in human times as well.

Virus' evolve before our eyes and breeding between cats and dogs has created multiple new species this is evolution no matter what Darwin said

ev·o·lu·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (v-lshn, v-)
n.
A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development

The different breeds of dogs and cats are still dogs and cats, they haven't changed into a different kind of animal.

Evolution has certainly not been proven to be factual. If I remember right you are 14 and probably still in High School where you will be told it's fact. It's not a fact.

go to www.answersingenesis.org and read the evidence for the other side.

Originally posted by Shenroon
Can i just point out even if Darwin did renounce evolution on his deathbed it doesnt affect the fact that evolution has been poven multiple times. Even if u think that things like the dinosaurs and mammoths and carbon dating just remember that evolution has happened in human times as well.

Virus' evolve before our eyes and breeding between cats and dogs has created multiple new species this is evolution no matter what Darwin said

The Virus does not evolve. The immune strands survive and multiply. The ones that are killed off by the antibodys normally keep the immune strains in check.

Breeding between cats and dogs??
Havnt heard that.
I'd like to see it.
Got a site? Pictures?
The bible says this is impossible

Originally posted by Raphael_UO

No man can say Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. There are differences in gifts, there are differences of administration, there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which works in all.
[edit on 15-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Originally posted by jake1997
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

My apologies for not quoting chapter and verse for that which I said.


1Cr 12:4-6
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.


Take Care.

[edit on 15-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

2Co 11:6 But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.

In christ

O.K I aint Christian but shall I amke it said that overall Christianity is missing at least 2 of its gospels so I guess all of them are wrong until they all merge and dont be picky on who they believe and just smoosh it all together

Originally posted by seraph5
And who came up with this idea that the world is only 6000 years old? I believe in evolution, she thinks I am absolutely wrong.

This one originated in Jewish tradition and was based on adding up the times of who begat who. It fits nicely with current doomsday cult fanatics because it matches up with the 6 days of creation (a day = 1000 years), meaning we are right on the verge of the 7th day (the 1000 year reign of Christ).

The physical evidence suggests the earth is ~4 billion years old, and that humans have been around for about 2 million years.

Originally posted by seraph5
The major topic of debate is whether or not Mary stayed a virgin her whole life. We as Catholics believe she did. My mother inlaw seems to think that Jesus had brothers and sisters, and in this sense I mean literal blood siblings. Why haven't I heard about this? Is there any factual (or at least written) evidence of this anywhere? Bible does not count by the way, well, I guess it does.

Want to watch her head explode? Ask her whether or not Jesus was married, and then point out that there are no Biblical passages to indicate he was single, but several that indicate he was married.

He was called 'rabbi' even by his detractors, but that title had marriage as a prerequisite. He was also in charge of the wine at the wedding of Canaan, a position reserved for the groom in those days.

It is only church tradition that holds he was single, the very same church tradition protestants supposedly abandoned in favor of solo scriptura. It seems they arbitrarily keep the traditions they like.

However, you asked a question as to who is lying, you, or your mother in law. You have left out another possibility, which is that you are both lying.

You are both making claims that you can not possibly know to be true based on terrible evidence, so you are both lying (claiming something to be true when you have no basis for such a claim), regardless of what the truth may be.