Did the Israelites know that stars and water are made up primarily of Hydrogen?

Okay, laugh and call me crazy, or be kind and say I'm just on an odd tangent, but read this carefully.

Starting at Genesis 1:6

"And God said, "Let their be a firmament in the waters and let it divide the waters from the waters." And God made the firmament and divided the waters that were below the firmament from the waters that were above the firmament, and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

Originally, I went online to find out exactly what Firmament was. (The Hebrew word, which I can't type here, translates literally to our word, "expanse".)

Then it hit me like a ton of bricks! Why have water ABOVE the firmament? Possibly to make MORE stars?? Is it possible the ancient Israelites KNEW Water and Stars are, by and large, made of Hydrogen?

Like I said, maybe it's crazy...but ya know what? I'd be willing to bet these "physics lessons" exist throughout the Bible. If you find any, please post them here.


[edit on 14-5-2005 by Toelint]

while i don't have any spacifics from religion. i think that the anchiant civilizations had a better understanding of most things than we give them creadit for. they only lacked technology as we know it today. most of this info was lost dureing the destruction of the roman empire and the "dark ages".

Absolutely! Besides having an "intimacy" with the earth that comes with living out of tents and caves, they were also at least as bright as us, and as capable of coming to scientific conclusions as us. I'm sure there was a pragmatism, or a curiousity, that forced them to investigate such things.

one of my favorits has beeb the discovery of apparent batteries. possibly used in metal plateing. wonder about just haw many of those "solid gold" items in museums are actualy only plated

also there is that stupid thing about columbus "discovering" america, when aparently he had some maps. which of course means he couldn't have discovered it (unless of course thos maps were from a phychic

I think I have to politely assert that just because the two items both contain hydrogen does not make them close enough to eachother for the mistake to be dismissed. There is a tremendous difference between water and a star obviously. They both contain hydrogen, but the Hebrews didn't say they were close, or that it was "like" water. They said there was water up there.

Suppose that I told you I had fixed you up on a date with Jenna Jameson, and instead you got Jerry Falwell. Would you say close enough just because they both have breasts and publically prostitute themselves (in different ways I grant you)? Close enough isn't enough in my humble opinion, especially when it comes to dating Jerry Falwell, but also as concerns making such debate-worthy claims about religious texts.

It's not as long of a coincidence as you would expect really. The reason there is so much water on this planet is because hydrogen is so incredibly abundant. That's also why stars are predominantly made of hydrogen. They could have said almost anything and been right. It was practically inevitable.

Last but not least, there isn't much indication that I am aware of that the ancient hebrews had any knowledge of the elements, of atoms, etc. They didn't particularly know much about astronomy either it would seem, since the if memory serves the bible says that the sky is vaulted above the earth like a ceiling.

Here is my take on it: the hebrews were sea-faring people, not unlike their phoencian cousins. They saw things in that prospective. When they looked up at that dark blue expanse above, they saw water. They quite literally believed that above the firmament of the sky was an ocean. Genesis 1:2 says that while the earth was a void and without form that the holy spirit hovered over the deep. This seems to imply that before there was an earth (only space) that there was a sea of water and darkness- the Hebrew concept of space.


On the tangent regarding Columbus, I would be interested to know if perhaps that quip about him having maps was in regards to the Piri Reis Map. I ask because if that is what you are referring to, I am proud to have been the one who found out the true meaning of that map and brought it to ATS. That map was made with the charts of lost portugese sea men, as far as I know, all post-Columbian. Now the odd ship here and there did get lost at sea and "find" the new world, but it was little more than a sailor's legend at the time and by no means accurately charted. The "official" story is that Columbus underestimated the circumference of the earth, thinking that he could reach asia in something like 1/3 of the time it would have taken had there not been an obstructing continent. In fact on columbus' charts, hispanola (haiti) is turned 90 degrees on its side to match the near-legendary accounts of a long island off the coast of Asia (Japan). He probably really did believe, or want to believe, that he was in Asia.

Originally posted by Toelint
Okay, laugh and call me crazy, or be kind and say I'm just on an odd tangent, but read this carefully.

Starting at Genesis 1:6

"And God said, "Let their be a firmament in the waters and let it divide the waters from the waters." And God made the firmament and divided the waters that were below the firmament from the waters that were above the firmament, and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

Originally, I went online to find out exactly what Firmament was. (The Hebrew word, which I can't type here, translates literally to our word, "expanse".)

Then it hit me like a ton of bricks! Why have water ABOVE the firmament? Possibly to make MORE stars?? Is it possible the ancient Israelites KNEW Water and Stars are, by and large, made of Hydrogen?

Like I said, maybe it's crazy...but ya know what? I'd be willing to bet these "physics lessons" exist throughout the Bible. If you find any, please post them here.


[edit on 14-5-2005 by Toelint]

I may not be remembering this correctly but I'm pretty sure that's their way of describing why we get rain. If water falls from the sky there must be a a large amound of water up there and in that way the firmament is placed between the two. Also keep in mind to them while they are translated as stars often in the bible they weren't stars as we think of them today. To them they were looking up into the heavens and not distant galaxies and suns. While more "Recent" ancients had knowledge of and the means to study stars the book if genesis is extremely old and likely predates any knowledge of the universe, at least in the area where the book would have been recorded.

Originally posted by Toelint"And God said, "Let their be a firmament in the waters and let it divide the waters from the waters." And God made the firmament and divided the waters that were below the firmament from the waters that were above the firmament, and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


Then it hit me like a ton of bricks! Why have water ABOVE the firmament?

Re-read the verses with an analytical mind, you will find that they declared water was also underneath the earth. They had no knowledge of anyting, this was their way of explaining the flooding of rivers, and more importantly, the fact that they had no idea the world was spherical, what they saw was land, sea and horizon, a flat earth.

Okay, let's study this passage word-by-word. If the firmament that separated the waters was thereafter referred to as Heaven, then surely the water below the firmament would represent the water that made up the rivers and oceans.

Yes, the waters above the firmament could be clouds, but that would essentially mean that Heaven topped out where the clouds began. That doesn't make for a very impressive picture of Heaven.

Another thing to consider is discovering that water contains flammable gas is a simple excercise. I've done it plenty of times with Lye water and Aluminum strips. They could have discovered this by mixing Lye water with Bauxite ore and letting the escaping hydrogen get too close to an open flame. At least that's one example.

As far as making the connection with stars...well...I'm not sure HOW they did that. Perhaps associating "that hot thing in the sky" with the flammable things they were familiar with on earth was a start, and they simply narrowed down the possibilities to hydrogen. Didn't the Israelites have their version of an alchemist?

[edit on 15-5-2005 by Toelint]

I think you are going to run into some severe problems trying to prove that the ancient Hebrews were aware of the molecular structure of water and the stars. The passage itself doesn't actually refer to stars just the "firmament", which is most likely a reference to the sky or heaven (the terms may have even been fairly interchangable). As the sky is quite literally full of water (clouds) this has got to be the most likely explanation.

We have only recently worked out what stars are composed of by using advanced electronic equipment to analyse the "spectra" of light given off them. And in fact although most stars are burning mainly hydrogen, they are also composed of many other elements such as helium, carbon and oxygen. There is no evidence that the Hebrews had access to such technology, but plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Aside from anything else water is not hydrogen - it is a molecule composed of 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen. It is completely different substance from either hydrogen or oxygen. The stars are not made of water and you really wouldn't want to take a bath in hydrogen (well you might, but it probably isn't recommended). You cannot use the terms hydrogen and water interchangeably, this would be wrong.

Originally posted by Toelint
Then it hit me like a ton of bricks! Why have water ABOVE the firmament? Possibly to make MORE stars?? Is it possible the ancient Israelites KNEW Water and Stars are, by and large, made of Hydrogen?

No -- it's because their origin myth is a variation of the other origin myths of the area. And "firmament" means land.

So they saw the Earth as being a flat square of land with water above and water below.

Like I said, maybe it's crazy...but ya know what? I'd be willing to bet these "physics lessons" exist throughout the Bible.

Only if you ignore what they're really saying and give it weird twists.

The Bible is religion. It is not science. The Bible also preaches that bugs have 4 legs and that bats are birds. You can take the philosophy as gospel (small pun) but the science is not as sophisticated as what the Babylonians or Egyptians or Greeks or Romans of the day had.

Originally posted by Toelint

Yes, the waters above the firmament could be clouds, but that would essentially mean that Heaven topped out where the clouds began. That doesn't make for a very impressive picture of Heaven.

[edit on 15-5-2005 by Toelint]

uh oh,
as their (Hebrews/Israelites/Torah/Biblical) theology & religion developed, they explained, written that
there were 3 Heavens, #1 which is equivelent to bio-sphere, #2 equivelent to intergalactic space (where the sun-moon-stars are)
and the 3rd Heaven is where the eternal creator ?resides?

??are you trying to put jig-saw puzzle piece into a space because it is the
proper shape? without also looking at the color, continuity, context, ???

Originally posted by St Udio

Originally posted by Toelint

Yes, the waters above the firmament could be clouds, but that would essentially mean that Heaven topped out where the clouds began. That doesn't make for a very impressive picture of Heaven.

[edit on 15-5-2005 by Toelint]

uh oh,
as their (Hebrews/Israelites/Torah/Biblical) theology & religion developed, they explained, written that
there were 3 Heavens, #1 which is equivelent to bio-sphere, #2 equivelent to intergalactic space (where the sun-moon-stars are)
and the 3rd Heaven is where the eternal creator ?resides?

??are you trying to put jig-saw puzzle piece into a space because it is the
proper shape? without also looking at the color, continuity, context, ???

Exactly. The Heavens, as in where the creator resides, were created above the waters that were divided around the firmament with different "versions" of the heavens below that.

You'd think that I'd learned my lesson about contradicting people too much around here, especially Byrd, but you'd be wrong. Let's break this down real quick and figure out where the firmament is and therefore where the water is.

Genesis
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible identifies the heavens in this verse as Shamayim, the plural of Shameh, meaning to be lofty. Refers to both the air and to the space beyond. Unfortunately it is the same word that they use for referring to God's abode.
So you've got two places- the earth, and everything beyond.

1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the spirit of god was hovering over the face of the waters.

1:3 Then God said "let there be light and there was light.

1:4 And God saw the lifhgt and that it was good and God divided the light from the darkness.

1:5 God called the light Day and the darkness he called night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

1:6 Then God said let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Firmament, according to Strong's, is raqiya, from raqa, the root of which is "to pound" or expand (as in smithing metal). So the firmament is a thin expanse of something that is dividing water from water.

1:7 Thus God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament and it was so.

1:8 And God called the firmament heaven, so the evening and the morning were the second day.

So here we go, we have "the expanse" (firmament) which is called "lofty" (heaven) dividing water from water. There is a strong implication that we have water somewhere above the earth. The Ryrie Study Bible I have suggests this as evidence for a "vapor cannopy" which facilitated the paradise of eden and later the flood, after which human longevity supposedly decreased sharply. This however can only be believed if we can prove the vapor cannopy, which I find mentioned nowhere except in modern interpretations. Therefore we an reasonably assume that the Hebrews intended this as meaning that there was water on earth and water beyond the air (heaven)- in space.

1:9 Then God said let the waters under the heavens be gathered together in one place and let the dry land appear, and it was so.

Here we have a pretty strong implication that the firmament is something other than the land, and that the since all of the water below the firmament is in one place (the oceans) that there must be water beyond the earth in Hebrew beliefs.

7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken upand the windows of heaven were opened.

Here we have two things. First a contradiction- if the fountains of the deep were broken up to produce a flood then all the water under heaven was not in one place as said in the first chapter.
Beyond that though, water was allowed to come down from above the firmament of heaven. This reinforces the view that Hebrews beleived that there was water somewhere above heaven.

This goes hand in hand with the Sumerian Enuma Elish, in which the goddess Tiamat (personalized rendering of "the deep") is cut in half, half creating earth, the other half creating the heavens.


So it seems pretty clear that the hebrew view of the world went in layers like this earth, air, water. Not hydrogen though- water. To the best of my knowledge they didn't know the first thing about hydrogen. They knew that certain things burned but they didn't know what part of its chemical makeup was causing that. Wikipedia doesn't make any mention of the Babylonians understanding this in the section on their science either.

It's a long stretch to parlay the flawed view of the world described in Genesis into an understanding of the composition of water and stars. Like I asked earlier- is Jerry Falwell close enough to Jenna Jameson just because they're made up of the same stuff?

LOL Vagabond, anytime you want to hook me up for an afternoon with either Jenna Jameson, or Jerry Falwell, (obviously NOT for the same reasons) please do so!

Hey, I know a million people I can impress by telling them I spent an Afternoon with ole Jerry!

Okay, speaking of Heaven, here's a little something to make your mind reel...

In Enoch 2,8, the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life are both found in the 3rd Heaven. The Zohar mentions 390 Heavens and 70,000 worlds. The gnostic Basilides vouched for 365 Heavens; Jellenek (in Beth Ha-Midrasch) recalls a legend which tells of 955 Heavens.

Now, THAT'S a lot of Heavens!