Farcical Astrology Conundrum

I just did a little experiment, in the spirit of the argument I am currently having with my girl, tRG.

My contention is that astrology has nothing to do with anything, or that if they do, it is only because the people that believe choose to live their days in accordance with the guidance that they receive from these idiotic paragraphs, thus making them become true. At least to their own perception.

I have compiled a small list of horoscopes for my sign, Gemini, for 11 May. I don't expect ANYONE to actually read them, but suffice it to say that none of the horoscopes in the list are similar in any way, save for a reference to heat/fire.

Are these people that make these horoscopes reading different skies, or what? And since the stars that we see (the ones we can see, anyway) have already been charted well into the future, are these horoscopes already pre-written?

And why don't you ever see a horoscope that has something bad to say? Why don't I ever read anything to the effect of "DON'T LEAVE THE HOUSE TODAY, BECAUSE BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN IF YOU DO!!!" Hell, horoscopes could say that every day and be more accurate than the vague and arbitrary steam that these frauds spew daily for our enjoyment.

And I know, these horoscopes aren't the real horoscopes. Just the fake ones that they put on the internet and in the newspaper. Does anyone know someone who writes horoscopes for any newspaper? If so, what are their credentials? Do you only need a degree in Astrology to be an astrologer for the paper, or do you need something like English or Journalism or something?

From PeoplePC Online

Your energy should be bouncy and positive, Isaac. You'll be able to get a lot done throughout the day. You might not need much sleep, so make use of that extra time while you are awake. You might pay your bills, balance your checkbook, or do other chores at your home. You'll feel good as you get your affairs in order and organize those little details. It's nice to be focused and clear.

From Yahoo AND Astrology.com

You've got a decision to make, and it needs to be made soon. It's got you thinking some uncharacteristically serious thoughts -- about what's really important, for starters. Family and long-term friendships will undoubtedly emerge at the top of your list, and you'll likely base your choice on their feelings. While you're in this frame of mind, by the way, why not let them know what you're thinking? We all need to know that we matter to someone. Your loved ones are no different.

From Horoscope.com

Things are heating up in your world. Stay calm and make the most of some good opportunities that are present. Plan some form of entertainment that will allow you to mix business with pleasure. A passionate evening is in order.

From the LA Times

Exercise both your body and your intellect. It might require buying better gym clothes and a few interesting books to get you motivated! Tonight, you have a profound influence over others. Suggest adventuresome solutions.

From Astrologyzone.com

Dear Gemini, your career is on fire! Earlier this year, in February and March, you may have experienced some very positive feedback about how well you have been doing on the job. In fact, you may have celebrated a professional victory or two. If so, you probably assumed that your career progress would slow down after that very encouraging phase. Actually, that's not the case! You were just getting started!

>.I have compiled a small list of horoscopes for my sign, Gemini, for 11 May. I don't expect ANYONE to actually read them, but suffice it to say that none of the horoscopes in the list are similar in any way, save for a reference to heat/fire.

Well, there are tabloid astrologers writing junk and more scientific astrologists who can recite the position of the stars and the planets and their influences for any time of day over the past 100 years or so.

It really isn't a matter of segmenting people into one of twelve periods and telling them what sort of day they ought to have. That's for entertainment only.

And then there is Chinese astrology.

If only we lived in a one-size-fits-all world.

Originally posted by siriuslyone
If your birthday is may 11th, you are a Taurus, not a Gemini..
And yes in-depth astrology does work..
Just ask a person who was raised by a fire-water combination parents..or someone in a fire-water relationship.

No, my birthday is May 31st. TODAY is May 11th!

How is it that you can personify fire or water to the point that you can predict the nuances of an interpersonal relationship?

If I found 1000 people who were raised by this 'fire-water' combination, or 1000 couples of the same, and asked them all detailed questions about themselves, their upbringing, and their relationships and how they function, how similar would they really be?

There are a lot of people out there, with very different lives. To what extent are we to assume that their experiences are dictated by the position of the stars and planets? Five percent? Twenty? Eighty?

How much real effect do the stars have on our lives and what we do or do not do? Call me simple for not seeing the corellations, but I know a lot of people that have the same signs, and I can see the differences.

It seems to me that the similarities between people of the same general birthday are the same general qualities that most people carry. Most people's great problems and great success are generally the same. Most people deal with the same problems day in and day out. That would make them pretty similar.

Why, in over 4000 years of Astrological study, cannot we measure the effects of the principles? Why, if it works, have we moved away from using it to make predictions of ourselves and the world around us? Why did the Kings and Pharoah's quit using them to predict the weather cycles that told them whether there would be bumper crops or not? Why do we not use these techniques?

Because they don't work. That's why.

>>Why, in over 4000 years of Astrological study, cannot we measure the effects of the principles? Why, if it works, have we moved away from using it to make predictions of ourselves and the world around us? Why did the Kings and Pharoah's quit using them to predict the weather cycles that told them whether there would be bumper crops or not? Why do we not use these techniques?

Because they don't work. That's why.

Originally posted by siriuslyone
I would predict 25-30 % of the fire-water duos have extreme problems.

I would predict that 25-30% of ALL relationships have extreme problems. But can you predict which particular relationships are going to have problems? Is it safe to go to a wedding where an Aries and a Scorpio are to be wed and predict a 25-30% chance that the marriage will fail, just based on the assumption that one is fire and the other is water? There just isn't enough factual basis in that. Is there?

May I ask what your girlfriends B'day is?

January 25th

The fact it has survived over 4K years must mean something..

Judaism has lasted that long, and they're STILL waiting for their savior to descend from heaven. THAT ain't happenin' either! The fact that astrology has survived so long has more to do with the people who perpetuate it, not what it is or does. 8000 years ago, people knew the Earth was round, but just about 600 years ago, they had themselves convinced it was flat again. So what?

The elemets that do not NEED each other is where a lot of problems occur.

I'm a firm believer that PEOPLE need each other, not ELEMENTS. I think that if people were to enter into a relationship because the STARS told them to, there would be a problem. If there are two people who have a relationship based on mutual interests and goals, and are willing to help each other get along with them, then THAT is something real. If they make little quippy remarks about how "he's a FIRE sign" or "she's an AIRhead", then well, that's just inconsequential compared to those things that ARE real.

>>I'm a firm believer that PEOPLE need each other, not ELEMENTS. I think that if people were to enter into a relationship because the STARS told them to, there would be a problem. If there are two people who have a relationship based on mutual interests and goals, and are willing to help each other get along with them, then THAT is something real. If they make little quippy remarks about how "he's a FIRE sign" or "she's an AIRhead", then well, that's just inconsequential compared to those things that ARE real.

Originally posted by siriuslyone
If you do not believe nor never will, the that is like 'beating a dead horse'
So I will not kill any more time to convince you as if you do not wish to believe, it is a waste of time...

This, I BELIEVE, is the problem. Those who believe, do so simply because they choose to, not because is actually makes any sense. I don't believe there are any instances where someone actually saw proof in astrology. Maybe TRUTH, as it relates to them, but no real fact.

And invariably, whenever I attempt to get some proof of fact out of someone on subjects such as astrology, psychokenesis, ESP, or any other similarly unprovable false perception of reality, the subject quits.

There's the proof. Again. I would prove the negative, I really would. But that's like, real hard and stuff.

>.There's the proof. Again. I would prove the negative, I really would. But that's like, real hard and stuff. >>

When you can show me a quark or a proven string theory, or "proof' we came from apes, the mayhaps, I can see beyond my dumbing down..LOL

The kind of horoscopes in the media is not something upon I would base important life decisions.
If my horoscope says I will win the lottery, I'm not gonna buy 100 tickets, just in case.
If it says beware you will move into a new area on the first day of a new job, well the law of averages says the horoscope is gonna be true of someone who reads it

If you believe certain signs get along better than others, well the jury is out. There might be something to it...or not. Scorpios aren't supposed to get alond with Aquarians. Well, I ddn't get along all that well with my mother, but then she was selfish and I am opinonated.
And, I have yet to meet a Taurus who WASN'T bull-headed
I see where a case could be made that personality traits are related to when you were born

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
I see where a case could be made that personality traits are related to when you were born

I see many cases that could be made about time and place of birth. If you were born in the '50s, you're going to be different from someone born in the '70s. That's all I can see. If it were possible, I would like to gather several people who were all born at the same time just to see if their similarities were just that convincing.

Another question:

Does it matter where on Earth you were born? I imagine that if you were born at the same time on the same date, but on the other side of the planet, that might make a difference. Does it?

What about the national dateline? And does astrology compensate for daylight saving time, or does whatever the clocks say goes?

OK, the discussion with theRiverGoddess continues, and more questions have come to light...

She says that it DOES make a difference what side of the planet you are on. But my question to this is, since the Earth is so incredibly small when compared to the enormous expanse of the rest of the galaxy, how much difference would it really make?

Another, she makes the point that the moon has enough gravitational effect on the Earth that it is able to move the oceans. Granted...

So is the force that is at work in astrology gravity, or are there other forces at work that effect us? If so, what are these other unseen forces. Let us measure them!

from the title I thought we were going to tell Astrology jokes. Oh well...here's the one I was going to throw in:

"I was an earth side and my wife was a water sign. Together we made mud." - Rodney Dangerfield.

I'll throw out a question here. Does all of this stuff really ring true, or is it kind of a placebo effect? Say someone never picks up an astrology book in their life, never reads a horoscope, nothing. Would a true astrologer be able to pick out when they were born, after hanging out with them for a while?

Originally posted by MCory1
Would a true astrologer be able to pick out when they were born, after hanging out with them for a while?

I estimate most "competent" and "serious" astrologers would be able to get 80% of people down to two astrological signs after knowing them for a couple of weeks without reference to their birthdate.

Try it out.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
I estimate most "competent" and "serious" astrologers would be able to get 80% of people down to two astrological signs after knowing them for a couple of weeks without reference to their birthdate.

Out of how many? Ten? A hundred? A million?!

I seriously doubt this.

If you were to take 100 Americans, 100 Mexicans, 100 Africans, 100 Chinese, of varying ages and social status, and make them subjects of this test, I bet the percentage of accuracy would be extremely mixed, and not near 80% in any case.

I think it might help to understand the actual basis for astrology. A group of people studied other people for a very long time, generations in fact. They compiled basic facts about the lives of the subjects but also opinions on the personality and motovations.

They found that while humans are diverse, there are only so many personality types (ie 12), and with the addition of a Moon sign, a fairly good personality profile could be created. This profile is better than chance would suggest, 100% accuracy is never possible because we all have may minor qualities that affect the whole.

The fact that these personality types have a relationship to the Stars is just something that seems to be. The mistake most people make is thinking that somehow the Stars cause something to happen.

If you wish a theory, I believe that there are primal forces in the universe, that we do not fully understand. As we as living beings grow and develop from the moment of conception some of these forces shape us just a little.
Perhaps that explains why there are these threads of unity that appear in our personalities.

The Universe is infinite after all, and what we 'know' today is really nothing in the overall scheme of things. Science can tell us a lot about what can be done, but there will always remain an infinity of possibilities that is still unknown.

Age is a factor to be considered BTW, the older you get the more likely you are to adopt new personality traits from experience and interactions with other people. Charts done on the young can be wicked accurate.

The sort of things available to the masses are just sugar candy. I have never seen anyone who bothered to actually get a real chart done who would not at least admit a strong thread of truth in it. Better than chance, that is the only real test.




A.T
(-)

If you give me your birthday, exact time and place you were born, and/or the current place you live (because i believe the place you live affects you as a whole person) i will post your whole birth chart. And i guarantee you will be blown away.