Is it time to take up arms?

Originally posted by Legalizer
Any armed action taken to make a political stand is determined by the Patriot Act to be TERRORISM

So basicaly the reason for our right to bear arms is now illegal?

Originally posted by C0le

Originally posted by Legalizer
Any armed action taken to make a political stand is determined by the Patriot Act to be TERRORISM

So basicaly the reason for our right to bear arms is now illegal?

i dink he means "any armed action" which means shooting at police or robbing a bank or murdering someone with a gun is considered terrorism.

even white supremacists rob banks in political purposes of trying to bankrupt the government as well as fund their operations.

[edit on 11-5-2005 by deltaboy]

i am still in limbo as regards to weither armed resistance would accomplish real change, or just end up wasting young lives in a futile struglle.....i still feel that maybe mass demonstrations could paralyze the system and possibly bring upon the winds of change.....a good amount of the militia are right wing wackos anyways

I find it funny that you still think it's a Republican/Democrat thing and if you bring a Democrat into office it will change the way things are going... because in my opinion that's just not the case at all.

I can't stress enough how pointless and stupid any armed action against the goverment is. First off we all know the goverment has superior arms, armor, and vehicles. Second they are trained in the ways of war unlike the populace which can be equated to a large herd of glassy-eyed cattle.

Alot of people like to think that the military would side with the people, but thats complete and utter horesepuckey! When bullets start flying at you survival becomes your primary concern. Once some ragtag group fired upon military units they would have no qualms with cutting the resistance down with whatever weaponry they have on hand.

Some fans of revolt like to point out that civilians outnumber the military and the police, and while this may be true, it doesnt matter at all. The vast majority of this country has no spine when it comes time to put up or shut up. It would be a miracle to find even 1000 devoted individuals who would lay down their lives in armed conflict against the federal government.

Without the ability or even the spine to remove a goverment by force, the only option (if you can delude yourself into believing its a real option) is to vote to change the system, but we all saw how good our votes did this last election in effecting change didn't we?

Now lets fantasize for a second that the goverment here was unsteated by force, leaving us a semi-clean slate to reinstate a more desireable form of goverment. The brutal truth is that few if any of the american public can be considered near the founding fathers in foresight and intelligence in the matter of crafting a goverment, so what would we put in place? If you can't come up with a real viable answer within 15 seconds fo that question, then thats proof enough revolution is a ludacris idea. Without a solid goverment instated immediately the world would view the US as the most loose cannon in the history of the world given that we have more nukes than any other country (save maybe for mother russia). It would be only a short ammount of time before UN "peacekeeping" forces would be dispatched to keep things civil, and then you would have another different conflict as those of us who dislike or distrust the UN would be trying to expell them from the country, probably to no avil.

So does anyone still believe in the joke of armed revolution, or has reality caught up with the wild immaginations?

Originally posted by Obfuscate
What is so evil about drug laws?

You really don't know?
450,000 people are currently in US prisons for drug crimes.
On Average in America in the last decade 770,000 are arrested for cannabis per year.
The drug war has been used to widdle down the rights of citizens, everything you seen in the patriot act was first plotted out and attempted as the "Drug War Emergency" act during BUSH Sr.s reign of terror.
Prohibition throughout history has only oppressed the citizens and empowered the corrupt.

Arrest and Trial and incarceration is a traumatic experience, much more traumatic for more drug users than the drugs themselves are.

Only 10% of those arrested for drugs ever make it to prison, the rest are robbed blind.
This is a corrupt policy. For instance getting caught with $300 worth of weed in NJ generally means you will pay $10,000 for your freedom, a limited freedom involving urine tests and the state searching your person and property anytime they see fit.

Originally posted by Obfuscate
I think Science and Education is more important then smoking weed or selling drugs.

Thats wonderful that you think that, but your thoughts, and the thoughts of those who use false information to push unenforceable laws that never abate the problem, only increase the problems.

As of 1999 the annual drug enforcement budget in the United States was $17 Billion dollars, that does not include what it costs to incarcerate 450,000 people and keep track of 7.7 million parolee's and pre-trial people under legal control.
In no year has the drug interdiction efforts of the United States stopped more than 10% of drug imports and sales.


Try doing 10% of your job and see how often you get a raise the way the drug enforcers do.

Originally posted by Obfuscate
I wish there were was more drug enforcement for drugs when I was a kid.

They had drug laws since 1937, when were you a kid?

Originally posted by Obfuscate
Especially for the dealers, not so much the users.

Well this may be news to you but 80% of drug arrests are users, 70% for simple possesion.

Originally posted by Obfuscate
A kid or adult who decides he is going to smoke weed for the first time in his life and is caught by police it is going to totally ruin his life.

You mean The Law is going to ruin their life

Originally posted by Obfuscate
I dont think it is THAT bad, but I think selling it, ESPECIALLY to minors is an extremely serious crime.

This country was founded by adults (who grew and promoted cannabis), the original constituition was written on hemp paper, its soldiers wore uniforms woven with hemp, it is run by adults, making the "for the children" excuse is hogwash. Its adults who are being incarcerated, its adults who are losing their homes, and property. Kids are a parents responsibility, an impotent government can not protect them by throwing responsible adults in jail for what they chose to relax with.

If you can't see whats wrong with the drug war, you are cracked out on ignorance.

Originally posted by Trustnone
I am a republican and i can see my country being turned into a tolitarian regime. Im sure the democrats agree by now that the government of the US has decided unilateraly to not listen to it's citizens, Whats the next step banning the right to bear arms?

OK, Dems don't like guns. Guns are what keeps us from being a totalitarian state. Maybe you've beeen drinking too much of the the kool-ade.

Is it time to take up arms?

Fools now I know americans have been brainwashed into thinking guns prevent crime but only suicidal, metally challenged or mentally deranged people would start a civil war in the USA. The belief that guns are needed to prevent the government from going bad is a lie hand guns and so called assualt weapons are no match for the US military.

Remember 200yrs ago modern weaponary didnt exsit.

Originally posted by C0le

Originally posted by Legalizer
Any armed action taken to make a political stand is determined by the Patriot Act to be TERRORISM

So basicaly the reason for our right to bear arms is now illegal?

Yes that is exactly the case.

First they federalized the state militia and called it the "National Guard", the commander in chief of said militia is no longer the governors of the states but the President of the Federal United States. You see in the civil war the governors of states that did not agree with Lincoln's actions to raise troops from other states to invade the states that did not agree with him, called up their militia's and said we must fight this oppression and tyranny....they lost, and now the hope of ever battling a tyrannical regime in the US is hopelessly lost.

Now look at what our "National Guard" has turned into: Cannon Fodder for illegal wars.
You can call it conspiracy if you want, ie, sending our "militia" overseas to be maimed, crippled, and some of those that are not permanently disabled come home and are labeled "mentally ill" do to post traumtic stress. In so labeling them, they are now under many state laws, not legally able to apply for a gun permit due to their mental disability.

I seriously doubt that a large, and united armed revolt will ever occur in the United States again.

If you've ever been to angrypatrioticbastard.com, then you've certainly seen the "Civil War main graphic" at the top of the page...

APB's reasoning for that graphic is as follows:

From www.angrypatrioticbastard.com
What is the deal with the Civil War main graphic?
Fair enough question. See, that is what we like to call visual symbolism. In my opinion, the Civil War and the months preceding it were the most glorious times in American history. Ignore for a minute the philosophies of the Federal and Confederate leaders and whether they were right or wrong. Focus instead on the fact that tens of thousands of Americans believed so passionately in a cause that they instantaneously took up arms to defend what they believed was right. Keep in mind, taking up arms back then was a lot different than today. Fighting in a war in that era meant that you would line up against a few thousand of the most grizzled, wooden-teeth bastards to ever come kicking their way out of vaginas. Then you would trade cannon shots to the nutsac while you peppered each other with musket balls. That is hard-#ing-core. And frankly, in that brief period, American history reached its zenith. Never before that point and never since have we as a people been so passionate, courageous, romantic or tough. So placing that graphic on the top of my page is a reminder of the idealism and valor that we were once capable of and a testament of my hope that we still have within us the potential for similar nobility.

I honestly couldn't agree more with APB (ignoring the witty parts about nutsacks, etc.). The Civil War and the months preceding it were the most glorious times in American history. For the exact reasons he mentions above. Simply look at it this way... if most americans can not find the time to write their congressperson, then theres no way in hell I'd expect them to pick up a weapon, and fight.

I find it so funny as to how we as Americans, or even we as members on this board are so protective of the one right we use the least **. Ask, and be honest with yourself as to how many times you've written your elected officials (defined as A)... then compare that number to the ammount of posts you've made here on ATS complaining about "the system" (defined as B)... If B exceeds A, then the problems you sense in this country are closer than you think. For those of you that use the excuse "it doesn't matter how many letters we write, they're all paid by the black gov't/big bussiness/masons/greys/reptilians/jews/etc... you too are part of the problem. Write your newspaper, hand out pamphlets... make people aware... put up your dukes, and fight.

It's amazing how all, or atleast most of this has been spawned by the topic of National ID's. You see America becoming a totalitarian regime, despite the fact that both me, and you are both engaging in open conversation via a public medium (this website, on the internet...) I've said it before, and I'll say it again... the average citizen probly has nothing to worry about from these ID's. Unless ofcourse you're planning on taking out a huge loan, buying enough weapons to supply a small army, and purchase one way tickets to Iran... you have nothing to worry about.

**Despite the fact that we, as a whole, rarely use our freedom of speech for the right purposes, that doesn't mean it should be taken away from us. Don't interpret what I was saying as "we should loose our freedom of speech because we don't use it." That's not the point I was getting at, at all.

On thing to remember, writing on a forum has some illusions that are attractive:
A) supposed anonymity
B) the people you rant at won't put you on a "list" of undesireables
C) most of the time someone argues back
D) there is a sense that someone is actually listening to what you say
E) occasionally someone else backs up your argument

you can tell by those points, that writing to your bloated sow in office doesn't hold these attractions.
Sure one might hope it will make some difference in the halls of politics, but unless you send them a big fat donation, it probably won't.

I've written to my congressman and senators and councilman.
Steve Rothman used to just send a form letter, but I guess I upset him by pointing out that nobody in my family is part of his "cheap drugs for vets and seniors" demographic.
I thought the other guy was ok when in what seemd like a personal response, but could have been form letter, he railed, against Bush's crackhead budget proposal. But then I looked up pharmecuetical donations to him and its over $165,000!!! He's in their pocket!
I know i'll never hear from my councilmen.

People use their freedom of speech to protest, but
A) the government doesn't listen
B) the media either ignores them or makes them look like crackpots (by getting a soundbite from to the crackiest cracker in the crowd)
C) the American public at large immediately thinks protesters are jobless hippy scum

Take this anti-war protest in NY for example
Did anyone hear what these people had to say?


You can bet if they were all armed, the police would have gunned them down in a matter of an hour or two, and the media would be calling them "extremist radicals".

Just because your rights haven't been violated today, doesn't mean its not happening.

You ask if anyone heard what those people had to say in the anti-war protest...

And I answer... yes, I assure you atleast one person heard what had to be said... and that right there makes that whole demonstration worth it. Just because you're not getting the ammount of people you want to hear you, to hear you, doesn't mean you should give up just like that.

In theory, one vote can make all the difference, so that one person who heard you can make that difference. I know US elections don't exactly work "according to theory" persay, but even so, you can't give up just because people don't hear you yet.

Keep on banging the drum, and people will begin to wonder where all the noise is coming from. You live in the information age... most of the modern, and free world is at your fingertips... if the media won't listen, and an elected official sure as hell won't listen, then go to the people themselves... make a website, and spraypaint the web adress everywhere if you have to. I'm sure you know of maddox@xmission... his website is among the most popular websites EVER, and 87% of it's popularity came by word of mouth alone. You can't say people won't listen to you because if 100,000 people will listen to maddox talk about how big his hairy balls are... you can atleast get 200,000 to listen to how much of a better country this would be if only we (insert idea's here.)

I apologize for the rambling format of this post.
I also apologize for any typos, or grammar errors. Been up a day, and a half straight... and it's 4:28AM to top that off...

[edit]This thread has made me think for abit, and after about half an hour of thinking to myself... I've come to the conclusion... that yes, someone is always listening to you guys. I myself find myself listening to you guys whether it be on this board, or at an anti-war demonstration I come up upon. I personally would've never have found out about the REAL ID had I not stumbled upon a thread staunchly opposing it. Had I not read that post I would have never have been prompted to read up on the Real ID Act at all. I didn't know about it untill about 2 days ago... and in 2 days worth of reading I've come to find out I do support the ID. Now... once again can you say nobody is listening? Everytime someone questions, or opposses one of bushes policies I often find myself reflecting, or dwelling on the question as well... it is because of your questioning, that I'm able to solidify my own views, or at times create a totally entire new view thanks to your questions. I know Bush isn't right all of the time, and for the most part, it's because of you guys that I find out he isn't.

[edit on 12-5-2005 by microcosm]

Not yet.

We're headed that way but we're not there yet.

What could be accomplished at this stage by an armed revolt?
Almost nothing. In fact it would probably hasten the descent of the country into totalitarianism.

However there will come a point when it is impossible to avoid - another hinky election, a state of emergency (martial law or something like it) in response to a (probably) staged "terrorist" attack, widespread supression of dissent - any of these things could trigger it.

I don't like the idea, but there is a certain point beyond which things can't be turned around by just venting on message boards. Were the Reconstructionist types to take power, or the .gov to start rounding up dissenters en masse, I would fight. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

At this point though there is still the hope that we can turn the tide without violence. Let's hope it doesn't get that far.

Armed rebllion would be both stupid and counterproductive. First, it's just a bad idea. Things aren't so bad that they're worth killing and dying for. Second, it would fail. Those who view things as intolerable are in the vast minority. Further, even if they were the vast majority, small arms are no match for the heavy weaponry of the world's most powerful military. Those in power would start nuking American cities if that's what it took to quell the rebellion. Finally, an unsuccessful rebellion would only hasten the rush toward a total police state.


I understand your frustration of watching the US rapidly becoming a totalitarian state, but there are other options beside suicide:

- Move somewhere else. Canada has not joined aboard the US emperial train, neither have the nations south of the border. Voting with your feet is the historical norm for the average Joe to escape tyrany. BTW, in a few years this option may not be available unless you already have a foreign passport. It'd be smart to be prepared for an executive branch coup attempt by having a foreign passport.

- Practice civil disobedience. Find a way to earn a living with cash and don't pay taxes. A healthy underground economy would break the back of leviathon more effectively than armed rebellion.

- Write letters to the editor and to your state representatives to refuse to carry out the decrees of the federal government. Remind them that the states are not vassels of the national government. Talk seriously about sucession every chance you get. Read up on the legalities of sucesssion. It is in fact a peacefull legal option, the fascist Lincoln notwithstanding.

- Always refer to the President as Comrade rather than President to drive home the point to those you speak to

- Quit caring

those who talk about the right to bear arms.

news.yahoo.com...&printer=1

Originally posted by Byrd
Good grief -- NO!

Bullets are not the answer. If you don't like the idiots in power, remember that they have a limited timespan. Vote the suckers out of office.

Promote another party that you like and start working for that candidate's election. Involve yourself in the political process.

But guns? That's ridiculous. Are you going to run around shooting EVERYONE in government, incuding the folks who repair the streets? How are you going to decide who's good and who's bad? And what benefit is there to breaking the law and committing murder or violence?

Become an activist, yes, but peaceful means are far better. Violence is unimaginative and won't get you the results you want.

I'm sorry but I think the time for voting has been and gone Americans could have got the bush administration out months ago but they didn't, does this not say "We don't care anymore we're just happy to go home and watch TV".

From the above post: "does this not say "We don't care anymore we're just happy to go home and watch TV"."

Oddly enough thats one of the strong points, and equally weaker points, about America. It's the ability to do as much, or even as little as you want. Each person decides his, or her own level of participation. Unfortunately though... most people choose the bare minimum (just voting in national elections), if even that at all.

We need another way, other than the bearing of arms, against this growing corporate fascist regime
They got the massive weapons of population and mind control after all
A number of armed Americans may stay their path while they build and amass their weapons of control
In the end, any amounts of shoot-outs and attacks and defences ain't going to do it
Only a mass conscious withdrawal from the system could genuinely bring these mothers down
The hundredth monkey awaits, while waging the war in the ethereal zone
The war is, after all, being fought by and on behalf of those entities just outside the range of general human consciousness

I understand the need for moderators to quickly address "a no violence action plan" since this site is spidered as all sites are.

What exactly do you mean by take up arms? Are you suggesting Americans band together and committ guerilla warfare? The thought is absolutley ridiculous. American citizens have no interest in fighting war only making money and exploring their lives. Even the michigan militia would rather be hunting deer than government officials.

Why do you think we're in Iraq and that the war was not stopped? WE DON'T CARE. Yeah we have opinions, but were too busy eating McDonalds or watching cable to do anything about it. Were paid good, we eat good, and we sleep in air conditioned houses. Were comfortable dude, and no immoral military campaign on any country is going to disturb that comfort.

Take away our beer, take away our sattellite TV, and take away our sports and then you''ll see guerilla war, but not over some other country's arse getting kicked - especially if were doing the kicking. Was it wrong? Hell yes - your moral platform has to be seriously disturbed, especially, ESPECIALLY, if you call yourself a Christian, to support a war like Iraq.

People who believe in this fashion have a new view on christianity, it's called made in their own image. It sure isn't made in a biblical image, but don't tell that to the President or to any conservatibe who supports the war. Conservative means to believe in traditional values and christian morals - be a christian in general. Thats not what we have though. We have warped conservatives who take from the Bible what they wish to use for political policy and throw out the rest when it comes to warfare and killing. It's using religion for an excuse to murder and maim from a platform of vengeance where 911 is used to justify every move and allows money grubbers to take advantage of this moronic, communist embued thinking.

We all know it's wrong to drop bombs on children and to make someones' backyard a haven to fight a war where thousands die from our toy's and "insurgent" (short for Iraqi) toys. Americans get the picture, it's obvious that frankly my dear, we don't give a damn.

Originally posted by vincere7
I understand the need for moderators to quickly address "a no violence action plan" since this site is spidered as all sites are.

What exactly do you mean by take up arms? Are you suggesting Americans band together and committ guerilla warfare? The thought is absolutley ridiculous. American citizens have no interest in fighting war only making money and exploring their lives. Even the michigan militia would rather be hunting deer than government officials.

Why do you think we're in Iraq and that the war was not stopped? WE DON'T CARE. Yeah we have opinions, but were too busy eating McDonalds or watching cable to do anything about it. Were paid good, we eat good, and we sleep in air conditioned houses. Were comfortable dude, and no immoral military campaign on any country is going to disturb that comfort.

Take away our beer, take away our sattellite TV, and take away our sports and then you''ll see guerilla war, but not over some other country's arse getting kicked - especially if were doing the kicking. Was it wrong? Hell yes - your moral platform has to be seriously disturbed, especially, ESPECIALLY, if you call yourself a Christian, to support a war like Iraq.

People who believe in this fashion have a new view on christianity, it's called made in their own image. It sure isn't made in a biblical image, but don't tell that to the President or to any conservatibe who supports the war. Conservative means to believe in traditional values and christian morals - be a christian in general. Thats not what we have though. We have warped conservatives who take from the Bible what they wish to use for political policy and throw out the rest when it comes to warfare and killing. It's using religion for an excuse to murder and maim from a platform of vengeance where 911 is used to justify every move and allows money grubbers to take advantage of this moronic, communist embued thinking.

We all know it's wrong to drop bombs on children and to make someones' backyard a haven to fight a war where thousands die from our toy's and "insurgent" (short for Iraqi) toys. Americans get the picture, it's obvious that frankly my dear, we don't give a damn.

Perhaps people like you and many others that "think" they know whats happening in iraq will pay attention when you realise that thousands of the troops in Iraq from all nations will have some form of disability til death and as for the poor people in Iraq it is sickening that nothing, absolutly NOTHING goes into the mass media. Depleted uranium will stick around for at least 4 billion years, yep 4 billion years.

Read following thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

4.5 billion years is a long time. Bearing in mind a top ranking US General has alread stated that we have no intentions of cleaning up the enormous amount of Depleted Uranium we showered Iraq with during both Gulf Wars, it looks like we are going to be killing the new democratic iraqi's for billions of years. If i were the new legislature there in iraq, my first ptriority would be burning the US military's arses over the radiating of their country. Was our overwhelming military not capable of winning over there without DU? We certainly were aware of the long term implications of its use. Not only do we need to wrry about the people it is killing now, DU can literally contaminate and alter the Human Gene Pool in the generations to come.

Many thanks goes to Twitchy for the amount of info in that thread.