THE UNSKEPTICAL SKEPTIC - PART 1

Is Christianity based on pagan roots? This is a question that scares the crud out of most Christians. I, too, would have been angered and chilled by such words. Obviously it is utter nonsense. On the contrary though, if you really look with unbiased eyes (a major key to true enlightenment), and take into account the issue we just discussed, the lack of evidence concerning a 'physical' Christ, you will find amazing parallels with many ancient traditions. While it is entirely possible that a historical Jesus actually lived, it is also possible that a mythology could have arrived totally out of these earlier mythologies. Although we have very little evidence for a historical Jesus, we certainly have many accounts for the mythologies of the Middle East and Egypt during the first century and before that appear similar to the Christ savior story.

Remember that just before and during the first century, the Jews were prophesying about an upcoming Messiah based on Jewish scripture. Their beliefs influenced many of their followers. We know that powerful beliefs can create self-fulfilling prophesies, and surely this was just as true in ancient times. It was a popular vision expressed in Hebrew Scripture for the promise of the 'end times' with a savior to lead them to the promised land. Indeed, Roman records show executions of several would-be Messiahs, (but not a single record mentions a Jesus). It was widely thought that there could come a final war against the 'Sons of Darkness'.


Rest of link.....

www.foreverseeking.com...

Any Thoughts?

That is an interesting question, this is just from the top of my head...

1. Holidays, let's compare.
I will hencefort compare pagan and christian holidays, for my comparation I will use the Wiccan holidays which I believe are generally the same as ancient pagan holidays.

1.1 Samhain, this is pagan's new year day, Originally the "Feast of the Dead" was celebrated in Celtic countries by leaving food offerings on altars and doorsteps for the "wandering dead".

This is celebrated on October 31st, and what an amazing coincidence, the following day you have Christian All-Saints Day.

My explanation: This christian "holiday" may have been created, as most other in an attempt to have pagan comunities give up their pagan practices in the times when christianismo was being spread throughout northern and western europe by the Roman empire.

1.2 Yule, this is the winter solstice, also a feast in most pagan tribes, this one's celebrated in December 21st.
It is important to point out some of the mithology or immanent meaning of this holiday, it is celebrated the death and REBIRTH of the Sun, which represented the masculine forces in celtic mithology.

Amazingly, 4 days after that date, you have Christmas where christians celebrate the BIRTH of Christ.

Also one other curiosity about this, I believe it is said in the bible that there was a kind of "census" going on throughout the Roman Empire, at the time Jesus was born, first of all, it is unlikely God would have a woman have a baby in those times of the year, you know, in those times heating machines were extremely scarce and blankets were not, unlike today, a common good to be found inside caves and in the middle of nowhere, thus many babies born in that time of the year would succumb or be very ill because they would be born in the worst conditions, cold, snow, rain, etc...
Also and coming back to the Census thing, it is highly doubtfull or even impossible that the Romans would order a Census to start in the middle of the focken winter, you see, with roads being completely covered by snow, most communication means would be cut and therefore the orders to commence a census throughout the whole empire would only be heard in like may or something and the census would be completed in like... august, so it's more like, no census, no babies, yet we have still an holiday, draw your own conclusions.

1.3 Easter.
wilstar.com...
It's all explained in there really.
Eastr or Ostara are the names of the pagan festivities prior to Christian Easter.

I don't really recall any other big Christian holiday, however these would be enough to seal my point about Pagan and Christian Holidays "amazing" coincidence.

Point 2, Jesus.
Look at the nearest image of Jesus.
Look at any Jew, a real Jew, like those born where Jesus supposedly born 2000 years ago.

Can you see any similarities?
Well, apart from both having a nice set of 2 ears, 2 eyes and only 1 nose and one mouth, can't see a lot more in common.

Now look at ANY barbaric warrior drawing.
WOW, isn't it amazing your image of Jesus is a lot more like the scandinavian viking warrior than the Jewish guy?
It's almost like, OH NO, THE SHOCK, Jesus looks were made up to rensemble european phisionomy in order to ease pagan conversion.

Now you will even find Jesus had a freakin' big nose and SHORT hair, why the short air? well well well, it seems some BBC team had a little investigation on the historical figure of Jesus, I won't write anything here but they found proof of the high unlikeliness of a Long-Haired Jesus, just make a websearch for "BBC jesus" or something and you'll find a big amount of imformation about that study.


Now let's see all we have learned in this marvelous marvelous post.

You can't trust Christmas
You can't trust Jesus
You can't trust Easter...

All have good probability to be a huge invention in order to convert European people...
So what's left to believe in christianity?

See more than anything else the fact that these stories have much in common is to imply that God has been all things to all people. And that this is not a coincidence and neither is it really an effort at forgery.

It could mean that every culture has been exposed to God and the only difference is related to language in so much as the names.

Any Thoughts?

While Christianity isn't based on pagan roots, most assuredly the Christian Churches stole all the seasonally celebrated festivals and attributed Christian significance to them. "Conversion" is a very important aspect of marketing.

Nice analyses, Toltec and Antichrist.

It could mean that every culture has been exposed to God and the only difference is related to language in so much as the names.

I must disagree, well, firstly and maybe I am wrong, but for example Budhist festiveties have nothing to do with christian ones.

Secondly, Pagan festivities are not inspired by God(s) they are inspired by Nature, but linked to God(s), as that was the best way to understand nature and its forces and phenomena.
Samhain, Yule and Ostara are natural festivities they celebrate something related to either the Sun or the Moon, the only reason they are considered "religious" is because both sun and moon were believed to be a representation of pagan Gods.

With all respect, and I really mean with all respect, I think that saying this "coincidences" are a result of God touching all people is a try to sweep all disconfort and all doubts this 2coincidences" bring to under the carpet, but I may be misinterpreting your words.

The pagan roots of Christianity is a cherished belief among "skeptics" who make claims about Mithra, Horus of Egypt, Budda, Sri Krishna, etc. Most which are made without benefit of any reference to the applicable source material or scholars. In other words, statements are made about Sri Krishna without reference to the Vedas or qoutes from a Vedic scholar such as His Divine Grace, A.C. Bhaktivedanta, Swami Prabhupada. Also statements have been made about Budda with no supporting documentation from Buddist literature or Buddist scholars. The parallels are simply not there However to dispute these claims made by the "skeptics" would bring forth a howl from them worse than shouting "Joseph screwed Mary" in a convention of Roman Catholic Bishops. It is an article of faith among skeptics that all belief systems are basically a form of sun worship and are thusly interrelated and the "skeptics" hold to this article of faith as firmly and without reason as any belief held by a superstitious native in the jungles of South America.

"It could mean that every culture has been exposed to God and the only difference is related to language in so much as names."


I would have to agree with Antichrist's premise also. The ancient Babylonians, more specifically, the Ninevites of Nineveh, had a legend(s) for:

The story of Jonah (the fella that got swallowed by the whale).

Easter

The Vigin Mary-Immaculate conception (The goddess Ishtar, and Queen Semiramis, were both claimed to have been a virgin when she gave birth to her son, Tammuz/Tamaz)

Christ (Tammuz/Tamaz, Queen Semiramis's son, being born of "immaculate conception", was claimed as the son of a/the sun-god)

Christmas (Tammuz/Tamaz was said to have been born on Dec. 25th)

Christ's resurrection (Tammuz/Tamaz was later killed by a wild boar and was buried and was then raised from the dead....three days later by the power of the sun-god)

Jewish holiday of Lent (Tammuz/Tamaz upon resurrection, commemorated this day and a festival was held every year there after and it started 40 days before his resurrection day.)

Note: all of these, acording to the legends and stories of the Ninevites were 2000 + years before the birth of Christ.

The Babylonians, as well as 500+ other cultures, tribes, and civilisations, have legends and stories of the Great Flood.


This is what I have been able to compil so far but am still currently searching.

Also, having read helen's retort, I will state, as a believer in God, that the evidences I am bringing forth are legends and stories from various time differences and civilisation's.

regards
seekerof







[Edited on 15-7-2003 by Seekerof]

[Edited on 15-7-2003 by Seekerof]

The correct word for in memory of Jesus Christ's crucifiction and resurrection is called PASCHA (Passion week) ....and it is a celebration for victory over death......because death has been concurred by the blood shed of Jesus Christ to all mankind!

There will always be people to try and change the true meaning of words to suit themselves of whatever reason it may be!

There is factual evidence of Jesus Christ existing at that time all over the world....but as always,people like to theorize on this and that!

How can believing in God be profiteering ?
You do not need to give any money if you do not wish to.
It is solely up to the individual if one wants to help another in times of hardship.

Jesus Christ never said anything about receiving treasures or money for your own benefit........if one does it is not the words or the doing of Jesus Christ!

If I want to help someone less fortunate then myself then it is my doing and I ask of nothing in return.......If I do ask then it is my doing and not Jesus Christ's .

In fact Jesus Christ in the East has always been portrayed as dark skinned and long hair with a beard......

As for the sacrement that is performed in Church ..
''Do this in remembrance of Me (1Cor. 11:25 )
It is not pagan but the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself!

Birthday parties are celebrated to remember the day one was born.......Does that make it pagan???
No it does not!

You are completely overseeing my whole point, I never said that partying one's birthday was a pagan activitie or had pagan roots, althou it may have.

What I said was that the most important date in christianity was awfully close to one important date in paganism, and the meaning of both dates are amazingly paralel, and that if we added the fact that other festivities were also very very close to pagan festivities and with important matching in immanent meaning of those festivities.
And thus I explored the possibility of Christ never having born or died in those dates, or more, never have actually existed.

I don't understand your point, helen, when you say that Jesus Christ had always been portrayed as dark skinned and long haired in the east,
I mean BBC prooved that Jesus Christ could not possibly have had long hair, but I am refering to the "dark skinned" thing, I said Jesus Christ was portraied with northern european phisonomy in order to convert the european people, specially the Celts, Goths and Vikings, and yet many people still think Jesus did indeed have an european phisionomy and hence I speculated about the amount of stuff you believe that may have only been made-up.

Btw, tell me about the factual proof of phisical existence of Jesus Christ on those times.

Other interesting similarities:

Quexalcote of Mexico:

He was:
* born of a spotless virgin
* retired to the wilderness and fasted for forty days
* was worshipped as a God
* crucified between two thieves
* was buried and descended into Hell
* rose the third day

Buddha, the 'Enlightened One' who spurred a new form of spirituality which is a tangent of Hinduism:

Walked on water:

"He (Buddha) walks upon the water without parting it, as if it were solid ground."
~ Anguttara Nikaya 3.60 (see Mark 6:49 for parallel)

calmed a storm:

"Now at that time a great rain fell, and a great flood resulted. Then the Lord (Buddha) made the water recede all around, and he paced up and down in the middle on dust-covered ground."
~ Vinaya, Mahavagga I.20.16 (see Mark 4:39 for parallel)

walked through walls:

"He (Buddha) goes unhindered through a wall."
~ Angutta Nikaya 3.60 (see John 20:26 for parallel)

performed miracles:

"As soon as the Bodhisattva (Buddha)was born, the sick were cured, the hungry and thirsty were no longer oppressed by hunger and thirst. Those maddened by drink lost their obsession. The mad recovered their senses, the blind regained their sight, and the deaf once more could hear. The lame obtained perfect limbs, the poor gained riches, and prisoners were delivered of their own bonds."
~ Lilitavistra Sutra 7 (see Luke 7:22 for parallel)

Here is my point, if what God had wanted was for a specific culture or system of belief to be treated as his people and them alone. None of this (above) would have existed in the writings of any other cultures or systems of belief.

Yes, there are differences, but we are not talking about trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Especially when we are talking about the matter in general.

Any thoughts?

Toltec,
I can see what you were really trying to imply when you mentioned every culture being exposed to God....etc.

I was looking at it more 'narrowly' then I probably should have.

I have always thought that God was beyond one particular belief, interpretation, or religion. Hence that comment I made of past to you concerning my postulations of "combining" the beliefs fo all religions to encompass a so called 'perfect religion'. I was a little off on that surmise but..hey. *shrugs*

I think I feel I understand what your are meaning and I can agree with its premise.

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 16-7-2003 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Antichrist
You are completely overseeing my whole point, I never said that partying one's birthday was a pagan activitie or had pagan roots, althou it may have.

What I said was that the most important date in christianity was awfully close to one important date in paganism, and the meaning of both dates are amazingly paralel, and that if we added the fact that other festivities were also very very close to pagan festivities and with important matching in immanent meaning of those festivities.
And thus I explored the possibility of Christ never having born or died in those dates, or more, never have actually existed.

I don't understand your point, helen, when you say that Jesus Christ had always been portrayed as dark skinned and long haired in the east,
I mean BBC prooved that Jesus Christ could not possibly have had long hair, but I am refering to the "dark skinned" thing, I said Jesus Christ was portraied with northern european phisonomy in order to convert the european people, specially the Celts, Goths and Vikings, and yet many people still think Jesus did indeed have an european phisionomy and hence I speculated about the amount of stuff you believe that may have only been made-up.

Btw, tell me about the factual proof of phisical existence of Jesus Christ on those times.

Hi Anti.........
Obviously I was not born in that time to give you actual physical proof but what is written down in Scripture witnessed by many in that time all over the world is proof enough.
For that matter,how do we know of the 3rd,4th,10th and so on centuries of true accounts of History existing???
Because we have writings and oral traditions passed down to us!
If that was the case then we would dismiss all accounts of history as being non factual and that leaves us with nothing to go on but theorize on what might have happened .........and though we do have true accounts before us, we still ask for proof and are never content with what we have.
helen

I think you did not answer my question, aside from the bible, and only the new testament, what other proof of Christ is there?

Non-Biblical references about Jesus:
Highly reliable sources. There are two of these: Tacitus and Josephus.
Moderately reliable sources. We find three: Thallus, Pliny, and Lucian
Marginally reliable or unreliable sources. Three are in this class: Suetonius, the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion, and the Talmud.

I would post a link, but the last time I did that, a couple of the people went crying to the moderators wanting me banned for doing it.

There are also Chinese, Egyptian and American Indian references to Jesus Christ, as well as Tibetan all during the same time in history and in one case after he died
and rose from the dead (that would be the American Indian one).

Christians did use pagan traditions as a form of manipulation to convert pagans. Many Pagan hymms celebrating the sun were altered to "son" and from then on used to praise Jesus.
The virgins birth and miracles such as turning wine into water stemmed from pre-christian myths.
The core concept of christianity - of a god like man who dies, is resurected and brings salvation was also the core of pagan religion. Anyway... heres a really helpful website in looking into pagan origins of christianity:

www.medmalexperts.com...

but i think if this subject intrueges you then why not furthermore look in to the origins of paganism. Think mesopotamia ...and the gods/deities based on sumerian myths that continued through egyptian, greek, roman myths ....

One of the great problems with most Christians is that they read, but change the words to mean something else than they infact do. Jesus isn't the only son of God. God has a bunch of sons. Jesus is but one of them. The one God has chosen to be his successor.

Jesus is a "one born" son of God. This means that he was born by a virgin. Jesus is a (clear) morningstar. This means he was born under a (special) morning star (a major conjunction between Jupiter (God, Justice) and Saturn (Satan, Wisdom) in 6 BC). He was a son of Man. This means that he was a descendant of Adam. Jesus is the Word of God. This means that he is the fulfillment of the Tannakh.

Jesus isn't the only son of God, he is just the greatest among them, the Clear Morning Star, the Crown Prince and successor of God. Throughout mythical history many men seems to have been born by virgins under morning stars as fulfillers of prophecies. But none are like Jesus. None can match Jesus in greatness and glory. And soon, when God has placed all his enemies like a footstool before him, he will be instated as King in Heaven and God, and it's time for God's son to be born yet again. He will be given the morning star and will be called the Word of God, and like Jesus is the successor of God, his son will be the successor of Jesus. See?

Blessings,
Mikromarius

INTRODUCTION

"Trust no one" were the dying words of the character Deep Throat in the TV series, the
X-Files; "Question Everything" are the supposed watch words of the skeptic. Using these
two phrases as guide lines, one would expect the skeptic to examine everything in the
cold hard light of scientific and historical fact and not to take anyone's word without
doing some research on the validity of their claims. Yet there has developed among the
skeptics a new dogma based on assumptions and assertions that are really not supported
by facts and documentation and would be discredited by anyone who would care to do a
little reading. A new mythology of belief has been created by the skeptics who hold
certain tenets to be true with the same conviction as the most rabid believer of any
religion, articles of faith to which the non-believer will hold in spite of overwhelming
evidence to the contrary. Indeed the non-believer, or skeptic, will reject out of hand
any refutation of any of the tenets of this new theology of non-belief with howls of rage
and charges of bad scholarship.

THE SKEPTIC CONTENTION

One of the most cherished tenets of the antitheist skeptic is what could be called the
"copy cat assertion" which states that the Jesus story incorporates elements from the
tales of other deities recorded over a widespread area. There is a whole list of deities
who were "sons of gods" and saviors of the world who were prototypes for Jesus according
to the skeptics. Some of these deities names seem to be known only to the skeptics as no
one else can give any information as to who these deities were. However here only those
who are called the "major players" and are alleged to have much in common with the "Jesus
character" will be discussed:

The Buddha Contention
Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, considered the "Queen of Heaven, of royal descent,
and he crushed a serpent's head. Sakyamuni Buddha had 12 disciples. Buddha performed
miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes," and
walked on water. He abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the
establishment of a kingdom of righteousness and taught chastity, temperance, tolerance,
compassion, love, and the equality of all. He was transfigured on a mount. Sakya Buddha
was crucified as a sin-atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected and
ascended to Nirvana or "heaven." Buddha was called the "Good Shepherd", the "Carpenter",
the "Infinite and Everlasting", the "Savior of the World", and the "Light of the World."

Horus of Egypt
Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his birth
being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men. Horus was a child
teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old. Horus was also baptized
by "Anup the Baptizer" and had 12 disciples. Horus performed miracles and raised one man,
El-Azar-us, from the dead, walked on water, and was transfigured on the Mount. He was
crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected. Horus was also the "Way, the Truth, the
Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of
God, the Word" etc. He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and
Fish ("Ichthys"). Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa", the "ever-becoming son of Ptah,
the Father". He was called "the KRST", or "Anointed One".

Mithra, Sungod of Persia
Mithra was born on December 25 and was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or disciples, and performed miracles. He was buried in a tomb and
after three days rose again. His resurrection was celebrated every year. Mithra was
called "the Good Shepherd", and was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the
Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah" and as identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day". Mithra had his principal festival on a
day which is contended to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected. As one of
the celebrations of the religion, the followers of Mithra had a communal meal similar
to the Eucharist or "Lord's Supper".

Krishna of India
Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One") of royal birth and his father was
a carpenter. His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was
presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh. He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered
the slaughter of thousands of infants. Krishna was baptized in the River Ganges, worked
miracles and wonders, and raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind.
Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love, and "lived poor and
loved the poor". He was transfigured in front of his disciples and in some traditions
Krishna died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves. He rose from the dead and
ascended to heaven. Krishna is called the "Shepherd God" and "Lord of lords," and was
considered "the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word". Krishna is
the second person of the "Trinity", proclaiming himself the "Resurrection" and the "way
to the Father" and was considered the "Beginning, the Middle and the End", as well as
being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Krishna's disciples bestowed upon him
the title "Jezeus", meaning "pure essence". Krishna is to return to do battle with the
"Prince of Evil" who will desolate the earth.

THE RESPONSE

There have been several postings here concerning these assertions in the past, the one
which came to my attention was a few weeks ago and mentioned me specifically. At that
time I did not delve into this subject because there were other matters which were of
more importance at that time. I have been aware of the "copy cat religion" hypothesis
for quite some time; but heretofore, I had only heard about this contention concerning
Mithra. The inclusion of Buddha and Krishna was somewhat of a surprise to me. Indeed
I have not read a book concerning comparative religion in years, but the allegations
ascribed to Buddha by this hypothesis just did not seem to relate to the Buddha I studied
many years ago. Also some of the descriptions of Krishna given by this theory just did
not seem to jibe with what one would expect of Hindu deities. I thought surely anyone
who had studied various belief systems (comparative religions) as many skeptics have
claimed would certainly question at least the assertions dealing with Buddha and Krishna.

I will not spend any time dealing what may be called "ringers" or "theological duhisms".
By this I mean terms such as "all powerful", "bringer of truth", etc. which would be
attributes one would expect to be ascribed to any deity. Indeed when was the last time
you read about a religion based upon a god called "Ozit, the feeble" also known as "Ozit,
the clueless, bringer of misinformation". Of course no one would worship a god who was
not claimed to be powerful and knowing; omnipotence and omniscience are attributes that
are normally assigned to any deity.

Buddha
The term buddha means "enlightened one"; therefore a person may become a "buddha"
but when referring to "The Buddha", the reference is to Sakyamuni Buddha (also spelled
Shakyamuni). You will also see references to Siddartha Buddha and Gautama Buddha; they
are all the same person. (Siddartha was his birth name, Gautama was his family name,
and Sakya was the name of his clan, the term "muni" means sage). I have noticed that
some of the skeptic literature seems to treat Sakya Buddha as being a different person
than Siddartha Buddha.

For twenty years, the rulers of the Kapilavastu Kingdom (located in present day Nepal),
King Suddodana and Queen Maya were unable to have children. In the year 566 BC (other
sources state 623 BC), Queen Maya became pregnant after having a dream where a white
elephant with six tusks touched her right side with a brilliant jewel on the blossom of
a lotus flower. When Queen Maya gave birth to the prince in the royal garden, the baby
boy came out the queen's right side (most likely the result of a Caesarian section).

The queen died seven days later due to complications from the birth. Prajapati, the
queen's sister took care of Siddartha and raised him as her own son. There was a
prediction concerning Siddhartha that if the new prince stayed in the court, he would
become a great king; if the prince ever left to seek the truth and become a holy man,
he will become a great spiritual leader. The prophesy added, "There will be four
sights: an old man, a sick man, a dead man, and a seeker of truth. After the prince
had seen these sights, he will leave the kingdom to live the life of a holy man."
Note that there are various traditions as to whom made the prophecy (court advisors
interpreting Maya's dream, another was 108 Brahmins who attended Siddharta's naming
ceremony, a third source says a hermit). However, regardless of the source assigned by
the tradition, the prophecy was always the same; Siddhartha would either be a great king
or a great spiritual leader.

King Suddodana was dismayed by the prediction for he did not want his son to become a
holy man. The holy men of India/Nepal were often wandering teachers who begged for food.
The king felt it was an unfitting life for his son, and he decided to prevent his son
from seeing these four sights by surrounding him with worldly luxuries. Siddhartha was
trained in riding, outdoor life, statesmanship, martial and academic studies including
archery, languages, mathematics, science, debates, and others subjects. He excelled in
all theses subjects.

At a young age, Prince Siddhartha exhibited great compassion and sensitivities to his
surroundings. Although living in comfort, the prince was not carefree and often thought
about the true meaning of life and showed compassion for all living things. In fact
rather than crushing a serpent's head, it was the boy Prince Siddhartha who stopped
another boy from beating a snake with a stick.

At the age of nineteen, Prince Siddhartha married Princess Yasodhara and spent the next
ten years in a life of comfort, music, dancing and pleasure in the different pavilions.
Prince Siddhartha was not content with the life of royal indulgence and became curious of
the outside world. At around twenty-nine years of age, the prince went outside the
palace and for the first time in his life, the prince saw human suffering. He saw an
old man, a sick man, and a dead man, and finally a man who seemed tranquil, a seeker of
truth. Prince Siddhartha then made plans to leave his life of comfort to become a seeker
of truth, to find a way to alleviate the suffering of the world.

Princess Yasodhara gave birth to a son on the night that Siddhartha planned to leave the
kingdom. Prince Siddhartha was torn between his emotions as a father and his aspiration
to find the ultimate truth of human existence; however, he chose the quest for the truth.

Siddhartha first studied under the tutelage of two noted Brahmans, Arada Kalama and
Udraka Ramaputra. He first studied under Arada Kalama, a follower of Kapila, the
reputed founder of the Sankya system of philosophy which lays great stress on the belief
in an Atman. His teaching did not satisfy Gautama and he left Arada Kalama and became
a disciple of Udraka Ramaputra, a follower of the Vaiseshika system which through
teaching of the "I" lays greater stress on the question of Karma and the transmigration
of the soul. Siddhartha became expert in both schools of thought but neither gave him
the answers he was seeking.

Siddhartha then went to a town named Uruvila where he was associated with five ascetics
who told him that truth can only be obtained by denying the body and rising above earthly
concerns. For the next six years, he trained with the ascetics, starving his body and
practicing ascetic rituals. Near the point of death, Prince Siddhartha decided that
truth could not be found by excessive self-denial or indulgence and he determined
to stay on a middle path. Siddhartha and the five ascetics parted company.

After regaining his strength, Siddhartha spent time in meditation; the tradition states
that he sat under a Asvatta tree (also called a Bohdi tree) near the river Naranjara.
In the course of this meditation, Siddartha discovered what would become known as the
"four noble truths" (1. Life is suffering, for all life ends; 2. The cause of suffering
is desire; 3. The end of desire leads to the end of suffering; 4. The way to end desire
and hence to end suffering is to follow the Eightfold path) and the "eight fold path"
(1. Correct view; 2. Correct thought; 3. Correct speech; 4. Correct livelihood;
5. Correct action; 6. Correct effort; 7. Correct mindfulness; 8. Correct concentration).
Siddhartha thus became Sakyamuni Buddha (if any transfiguration ever occurred to Buddha,
it was under a Bohdi tree beside the river Naranjara and not on a mountain).

Sakyamuni Buddha then sought out his former five ascetics associates (Koddanna, Vappa,
Bhaddiya, Mahanama, and Varanasi) who became his first disciples. This later became
fifty and when the number reached sixty, Buddha instructed his disciples to travel and
spread the word (Dharma). Later he returned to Kapilavastu and instructed his family
who became his disciples.

Sakyamuni Buddha died of natural causes when he was eighty years old after teaching for
forty-five years (he attained enlightenment when he was thirty-five). Under the direction
of Ananda, the Buddha's favorite disciple, the body was cremated and ashes were divided
among eight kings with a stupa erected over each portion.

Most of the skeptics' assertions about Buddha seem to be statements they just made up
with no regards to the copious Buddhist literature which states the contrary (i. e.,
"Sakya Buddha was crucified as a sin-atonement" when the history of Buddha states that
he died at the age of eighty of basically old age). To paraphrase Professor Chun-fang Yu,
the Chair of the Department of Religion at Rutgers and a specialist in Buddhist studies.
"The person who presented these views is totally ignorant of Buddhism. It is very
dangerous to spread misinformation like this. You should not honor these people by
engaging in a discussion. Please ask them to take a basic course in world religion
or Buddhism before uttering another word about things they does not know."

Horus of Egypt

In ancient Egypt there were originally several gods known by the name Horus, but the best
known and most important from the beginning of the historic period was the son of Osiris
and Isis who was identified with the king of Egypt. Shu and Tefnet give birth to the
gods Osiris and Seth, and the goddesses Isis and Nephthys. The elder son Osiris (the
good god) is murdered by his jealous brother Seth who dismembers him. Seth takes Osiris'
place as the new king of the world. The sister-wife of Osiris is Isis collects the
pieces and revives Osiris enough to conceive a child, Horus. The transfigured Osiris
withdraws to the underworld to rule the dead, Isis protects Horus in the marshes of the
Nile Delta until he is old enough to fight his uncle Seth.

Horus battles Seth loses an eye in the contest where Seth is castrated but Horus succeeds
in avenging the death of his father and in becoming his legitimate successor. Seth gives
the eye of Horus which Horus gives to his father Osiris. Osiris then became king of the
dead and Horus king of the living. Horus was associated with the pharaoh, every pharaoh
was considered an incarnation of Horus, the name of Horus formed part of the his name.
When the pharaoh died, his successor became the new living image of Horus and the dead
pharaoh became Osiris, Horus' father.

Horus' most common form is that of falcon-headed man, but he is also shown as a falcon,
a lion with the head of a falcon, or a sphinx. He is also shown as a falcon resting on
the neck of the pharaoh, spreading his wings to either side of the pharaoh's head and
whispering guidance in his ear.

Considering the contentions presented for Horus:
* "Horus was born of the virgin Isis on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his birth
being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men". Horus was born
in a swamp and was not born of a virgin at all. Indeed, one ancient Egyptian relief
depicts this conception by showing his mother Isis in a falcon form, hovering over an
erect phallus of a dead and prone Osiris in the Underworld. There exists no evidence
which supports a birth being announced by a star and being attended by three wise men.
If fact Isis was in hiding from Seth in the marshes of the Nile Delta.
* "Horus was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old.
Horus was also baptized by 'Anup the Baptizer' and had 12 disciples". No Egyptian
religion scholars know anything of this. There are references to four "disciples",
variously called the semi-divine HERU-SHEMSU ("Followers of Horus"). Remember Horus
and Isis were in hiding until Horus reached an age where he could combat Seth.
* "Horus performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead, walked on
water, and was transfigured on the Mount". There is no reference to this specific
resurrection find anywhere in the scholarly literature. There also exists no record
of a transfiguration on a mountain, or of Horus walking on water. Horus' official
funerary role is to introduces the newly dead to Osiris and his underworld kingdom.
* "He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected". There are no references to
Horus ever dying, until he later becomes merged with Re the Sun god, after which he
"dies" and is "reborn" every single day as the sun rises, but there is no reference
to a tomb anywhere. There is a reference to where Horus is bitten by a snake and then
is subsequently revived.
* "Horus was also the 'Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the
Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word'. He was 'the Fisher' and
was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish ('Ichthys')". The following titles for
Horus been found: "Great God", "Chief of the Powers", "Master of Heaven", and "Avenger
of His Father".
* "Horus's personal epithet was 'Iusa', the 'ever-becoming son of Ptah, the Father'.
He was called 'the KRST', or 'Anointed One'. No evidence has been found to indicate
that these terms were ever applied to Horus.

Mithra, Sungod of Persia

The first remaining record of a god named Mithra appears as a deity invoked in a treaty
dated 1400 BC; thereafter Mithra is one of several Indo-Iranian gods and is known for
giving orders, assembling people, and marshalling them perhaps with militaristic overtones.
overtones. He also appears as one who represents the concept of fidelity, one of many such
abstractions and personifications of virtues in the ancient East; Mithra was the "guardian
of the truth," "most dear to men," one "whose long arms seize the liar," who "injures no
one and is everyone's friend," one who was all-seeing and all-knowing, the sun was his
"eye" on the world. Mithra was responsible also for bringing rain, vegetation, health,
and was Lord of the Contract, Upholder of Truth, peaceful, benevolent, protector.

In Zoroastrianism, Mithra served as mediator between Ohrmazd and Ahriman, the good and
bad gods of Zoroastrian dualism, being one of a group of seven lesser yazatas who served
the upper-level deities and was assigned some special escort duties, bringing demons to
hell, and bringing souls to Paradise.

Roman Mithraism was what was called a mystery religion, that is a religion in which the
beliefs are revealed only to initiates. Mithraism maintained strict secrecy about its
teachings and practices, revealing them only to initiates. As a result, reconstructing
the beliefs of the Mithraic devotees has posed an enormously intriguing challenge to
scholarly ingenuity. Owing to the cult's secrecy, today there is almost no literary
evidence about the beliefs of Mithraism. The few texts that do refer to the cult do not
come from Mithraic devotees, but from outsiders such as early Church fathers and Platonic
philosophers. In short there is little in the way of literature to support what the
followers of Mithraism really believed and taught.

It was originally thought that Roman Mithraism was a development of Iranian Mithraism,
that there was a continuity of beliefs from the Iranian Mithra to the Roman Mithra, but
recent studies have indicated that Roman Mithraism had little in common with the Mithra
of Iran. Roman Mithra didn't appear at all interested in contract enforcement or
escorting demons into hell, and there was a Roman motif of Mithra slaying a bull that
just simply not present in Iranian Mithraism. There is simply no solid connection
between the two faiths except for the name of the central god, some terminology, and
astrological lore of the sort that was widely imported into the Roman Empire from
Babylon anyway. The typical Roman mithraeum was a small rectangular subterranean chamber
(or cave), on the order of 75 feet by 30 feet with a vaulted ceiling. An aisle usually
ran lengthwise down the center of the temple, with a stone bench on either side two or
three feet high on which the cult's members would recline during their meetings; on
average a mithraeum could hold perhaps twenty to thirty people at a time. At the back
of the mithraeum at the end of the aisle was always found a representation, usually a
carved relief but sometimes a statue or painting of the central icon of Mithraism,
the "bull-slaying scene" in which the god of the cult, Mithras, accompanied by a dog,
a snake, a raven, and a scorpion, is shown in the act of killing a bull. The temples
were filled with an extremely elaborate iconography; carved reliefs, statues, and
paintings depicting a variety of enigmatic figures and scenes. This iconography is the
primary source of knowledge about Mithraic beliefs, but because there are no written
accounts of its meaning, the ideas being expressed have proven extraordinarily difficult
to decipher.

Mithraic scholars have noticed something about the bull-slaying scene; the various human,
animal, and other figures seem to comprise a star-map. The bull corresponds to Taurus,
the scorpion coincides with Scorpio, the dog to Canis Major, etc. It is theorized that
Mithra himself corresponds with Perseus and that Roman Mithraism was founded upon a
discovery in ancient astronomy which was closely linked to astrology. This discovery is
what we call the precession of the equinoxes. This precession results in the equinoxes
moving slowly backward along the zodiac, passing through one zodiacal constellation
every 2,160 years and through the entire zodiac every 25,920 years. For example today
the spring equinox is in the constellation of Pisces, but in a few hundred years it will
be moving into Aquarius (the so-called "dawning of the Age of Aquarius"). This discovery
was made around 128 BC by the great Greek astronomer Hipparchus. Today we known that
the precession of the equinoxes is caused by the wobble in the earth's rotation on its
axis; however, for Hipparchus it meant that the entire universe was moving in a way that
no one had ever been previously aware. Hipparchus held to the geocentric cosmology in
which the earth was believed to be immovable and center of the universe; the only way he
could explain the precession of the equinoxes was a movement of the entire cosmic sphere.
In Hipparchus's time, astrological beliefs were pervasive in intellectual and religious
life; it was widely believed that the stars and planets were living gods and that the
movements of the planets and stars controlled all aspects of human existence. The study
of astrology was then considered to be a science and Hipparchus's discovery had profound
theological implications in the Greco-Roman world. Some force had been detected which
was capable of shifting the cosmic sphere, perhaps a sign of the activity of a new god,
one so powerful that he could move the entire universe.

In the Greco-Roman period, the spring equinox was in the constellation of Aries the
Ram, Hipparchus's discovery of the precession made it clear that before the Greco-Roman
period, the spring equinox was in Taurus the Bull. An obvious symbol of the precession
phenomenon would then be the death of a bull indicating the end of the "age of Taurus".
The theory is then that the "bull slaying" motif of Mithra was a symbol of the power
ascribed to Mithra, that Mithra was powerful enough to move the entire universe.

Considering the contentions presented for Mithra:
* "Mithra was born on December 25 and was considered a great traveling teacher and master".
Mithra was not born of a virgin in a cave; he was born out of solid rock, fully grown.
There is another theory (by David Ulansey), that this motif of Mithra emerging from a
rock is a symbol for the cosmos as seen from the outside. In other words, Mithra is
emerging from the cosmos and this symbolism represents the idea that he is in some
sense greater than the cosmos since he is capable of moving the entire universe and
cannot be contained within the cosmic sphere.
* "He had 12 companions or disciples and performed miracles". The Iranian Mithras had a
single companion (Varuna); the Roman Mithra had two helper/companions called Cautes
and Cautopatres who were two tiny torch-bearing likenesses of himself.
* "He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again. His resurrection was
celebrated every year". There is no evidence of this in any the Mithraic studies
literature to Mithra being buried or even dying. Also if Mithra is outside the cosmos
turning the universe (as per Ulansey's theory), then he better not die.
* "Mithra was called 'the Good Shepherd', and was considered 'the Way, the Truth and
the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah' and as identified with both the
Lion and the Lamb". The lion was regarded in Roman Mithraism as Mithra's "totem"
animal (Athena's animal was the owl and Artemis' animal was the deer), but the lamb
was never associated with Mithra. There is no evidence that Mithra was ever referred
by any of the titles (none mentioned in the works of Mithraic scholars), but here are
generic titles (i, e., the way) that would be applicable to any deity.
* "His sacred day was Sunday, 'the Lord's Day'. Mithra had his principal festival on a
day which is contended to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected." The
Iranian Mithra had a few special celebrations, a festival on October 8, another on
September 12-16, and on October 12-16. There was also a festival for each season.
It is correct that Sunday was the sacred day for Roman Mithraism. Since there is no
evidence of Mithra dying, then there is no evidence of festival where Mithra is
resurrected.
* "As one of the celebrations of the religion, the followers of Mithra had a communal
meal similar to the Eucharist or 'Lord's Supper'". There is ample evidence that the
followers of Mithra had communal meals which were probably of the sort that was
practiced by groups in the Roman world, from religious groups to funereal societies.
It could be said that having communal meals is a common trait of all humans.

Krishna of India
Hindus believe that their deities manifest (or incarnate) themselves from time to time
when conditions on earth require it. There are greater to lesser manifestations, the
greatest manifestations are called Avataras proper (Purna-Avataras or full incarnations).
Then there are the Amsa-Avataras (partial incarnations), Avesa-Avataras (inspirational
incarnations), Kala Avataras, Rishis, Munis, Prophets, Messiahs, Sons of God, messengers
of God are minor manifestations. The Avataras usually come with their particular
favorite groups or companions. Lord Rama came with Lakshmana, Bharata, and Satrughna;
Lord Krishna came with Balarama, the Devas, and Rishis; Sanaka came with Sanandana,
Sanat Kumara, and Sanatana.

There are several traditions of concerning the number of Avataras and their incarnation
on earth. Sri Swami Sivananda lists ten Avataras of Lord Vishnu: Matsya (the Fish),
Kurma (the Tortoise), Varaha (the Boar), Narasimha (the Man-Lion), Vamana (the Dwarf),
Parasurama (Rama), Ramachandra (the hero of Ramayana), Sri Krishna (teacher of the Gita),
Buddha (founder of Buddhism) and Kalki (who is to come). Other Hindu authorities list:
Matsya (the Fish), Kurma (the Tortoise), Varaha (the Boar), Narasimha (the Man-Lion),
Vamana (the Dwarf), Parasurarama, Rama, Balarama (brother of Krishna), Sri Krishna,
and Kalki (who is to come). Note the substitution of Balarama for Buddha as an Avataras.
Other Hindus accept a list of 23 incarnations of Vishnu which includes the names of
Dattatreya, Satvata and Vedavyasa; however, other Hindus consider these names to be on
the list of Amsa Avataras (partial incarnations).

Then there are people who are considered to be incarnations of Krishna. Among these are
the founder of the Vallabhacharins (a Hindu sect), Chaitanya Mahaprabhu founder of the
Chaitanya sect, and A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, founder of the Hare Krishna
movement would most certainly be considered an incarnation of Krishna. The are also
people who are considered to be incarnations of Rama, Surya, Vayu, etc. According to
some Hindus, Jesus and Mohammed are Amsa Avataras (partial incarnations) of Krishna.

The whole purport of the proceeding is to show that the Hindus view existence entirely
differently than Christians and Moslems. What we consider to be different deities, they
see as merely aspects of the same god ("There is no polytheism in Hinduism. Siva, Vishnu,
Brahma and Sakti are different aspects of one Lord". - Sri Swami Sivananda). Further
quoting Sri Swami Sivananda:

"God reveals Himself to His devotees in a variety of ways. He assumes the very form
which the devotee has chosen for his worship. If you worship Him as Lord Hari with
four hands, He will come to you as Hari. If you adore Him as Siva, He will give you
Darsana as Siva. If you worship Him as Mother Durga or Kali, He will come to you as
Durga or Kali. If you worship Him as Lord Rama, Lord Krishna or Lord Dattatreya, He
will come to you as Rama, Krishna or Dattatreya. If you worship Him as Christ or Allah,
He will come to you as Christ or Allah."

Hence a Hindu sees Christ crucified as being an incarnation of Vishnu (or Krishna).
When we view Jesus as being different from Krishna or Rama, the Hindu seems Jesus as
being a manifestation or incarnation of the same personality. This may lead those of
western religious traditions to misinterpret statements made by Hindus.

The following is a short description of the incarnation of Krishna as Purna-Avataras:

Kamsa is the king of the Yadus, the Bhojas and the Andhakas, and his sister Devaki is to
be married to Prince Vasudeva, the son of a king Sura. Kamsa hears a prediction that the
eighth child of Devaki will kill him, a son. He imprisons Vasudeva and Devaki and as
each child is born, it is killed even though it will only be the eighth child who will be
a threat. On the night of July 19-20 (eighth day of the month of Shravana in the Hindu
calendar) in the year 3228 BC, there appeared in the prison cell the divine form of Sri
Vishnu. He reassured Vasudeva and Devaki and then took the form of an ordinary human
baby and sat on the lap of Devaki. A voice then instructs Vasudeva to put the baby in a
basket and go to the village Gokula and exchange him for Maya, the daughter of Nandalal,
the chieftain of Gokula, and Yashoda. The prison guards are in a deep sleep, the shackles
restraining Vasudeva are released, and the prison doors open. Vasudeva goes to Gokula
(across a raging river) and finds Nandalal and Yashoda in a deep sleep also. He exchanges
Krishna for Maya and returns to the prison cell before dawn.

When Kamsa learned of the birth of a child to Devaki and Vasudeva, he comes to the prison
cell and attempts to kill the child, Maya. She escapes his grasp and swirls high in the
room and announces the doom of Kamsa; Kamsa is worried and orders the killing of all babies
born in his kingdom during those last days should be killed. Kamsa then learns about the
birth of boy to Nandalal and Yasoda. Since Nandalal was loyal to the king, Kamsa decides
to send one of his lady attendants, the demon Putana, to kill the baby instead of directly
ordering his soldiers to do so. Putana changes herself into an attractive and enchanting
motherly lady so that Yashoda never suspects any foul play. Putana had applied a large
amount poisonous potion to her breasts, Putana offers to feed the baby Krishna, and
Yashoda aggress. Krishna is not only aware of the plan but is immune to the poison. When
Putana puts the Krishna to her breast, he sucks the life out of her and Putana changes
to her hideous demonic form.

Over the next few years Krishna and his elder brother Balarama, the son of Nandalal from
his second wife Rohini, kill demons and finally Kamsa and his brothers. He along with
Balarama are instructed in sixty-four arts (which he learns in sixty-four days). At the
age of 29, Krishna establishes a kingdom in Dvaraka where he marries Rukmini and seven
principal queens. He also marries 16,100 princesses and has 161,080 sons born to him.
Around the age of ninety, he serves as a chariot driver for his friend Arjuna in the
battle at Kuruksetra (3138 BC) where he recites the Bhagavad-Gita to Arjuna. In one
tradition, Krishna simply disappears February 18, 3102 BC. In another tradition, Krishna
is mistaken for a deer by a hunter and is accidentally killed (Law of Karma situation).

Considering the contentions presented for Krishna:
* "Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki ('Divine One') of royal birth and his father was
a carpenter. His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was
presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh". Well Krishna was a eighth child, Vasudeva
is a prince, Nandalal is the chieftain of Gokula and a cow herder. There was a village
celebration attended by the people of the village, the Brahmans who were there to perform
a birth ceremony, astrologers to chart a horoscope, and one demon, Putana, who should have
stayed home. There were no gifts of gold, frankincense, myrrh, etc. Gifts of cows and
grain were given to the Brahmans.
* "He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants". Well
Kamsa did order the death of babies born in his kingdom, but Krishna killed the demons
sent to kill him and Kamsa soldiers who came to Gokula.
* "Krishna was baptized in the River Ganges, worked miracles and wonders, and raised the
dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind". Taking baths is a common purification
ritual among Hindus; however, it does not have the same connotation as the Christian
baptism. There is only one reference of Krishna healing a blind man, and you would
expect a Purna-Avataras of Vishnu to pull off an occasional miracle. One of the reputed
miracles ascribed to Krishna was lifting the mount Govardhan with one little finger and
holding it for seven days and seven nights using it as an umbrella to shelter people
from a terrific rain sent by the god Indra.
* "Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love, and 'lived poor
and loved the poor'". Krishna would allow a situation to develop and then use that
situation to instruct (with a lengthy discourse). The miracle described above was
used to instruct the Lord Indra of his proper place in the universe. As for living
poor, Krishna adopted father Nandalal was the chieftain of Gokula village and was able
to give 200,000 cows to the Brahmans at Krishna's naming ceremony. Later Krishna
established a kingdom in Dvaraka and married a Rukmini, 7 principal queens, and
16,100 princesses and had 161,080 sons. Well Krishna loved everybody.
* "He was transfigured in front of his disciples and in some traditions Krishna died on
a tree or was crucified between two thieves. He rose from the dead and ascended to
heaven". Krishna would change form whenever it suited has purposes. There was one
example where he took the form of his boyhood friends and a herd of cows for one year
to teach a lesson to Lord Brahma. There is one tradition which says that Krishna was
mistaken for a deer by a hunter. That shot proved to be fatal for Lord Krishna. When
the hunter became inconsolable due to his careless act, Sri Krishna calmly said that
the hunter was not to blame. In a previous incarnation as Sri Rama, he killed a King
Bali by shooting an arrow from behind a tree; Sri Krishna was then to leave the body
because of the hunter shooting from behind a tree. It was an illustration of the
Hindu Law of Karma.
* "Krishna is called the 'Shepherd God' and 'Lord of lords', and was considered 'the
Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word'. The only term I have
found is Supreme Personality of the Godhead; some of the other terms may or may not
have been applied at on time or the other.
* "Krishna is the second person of the 'Trinity', proclaiming himself the 'Resurrection'
and the 'way to the Father' and was considered the 'Beginning, the Middle and the End',
as well as being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Krishna was an incarnation
of Vishnu who is an aspect of one Lord. Also I have found no claims that Krishna ever
claimed to be the "resurrection" since the Hindus believe in reincarnation it is
unlikely that their deities would claim such a thing. Also Krishna is considered the
Supreme Personality of the Godhead, you would expect him to be omniscient, omnipresent,
and omnipotent.
* "Krishna's disciples bestowed upon him the title 'Jezeus', meaning 'pure essence'.
This was a claim made by a Louis Jacolliot (1837-1890), a Frenchman who lived in India
and wrote a book called "The Bible in India". The point is not really relevant since
the real name of Jesus is Yeshua (His Hebrew name); however, it appears that Jacolliot
had heard followers of Krishna chanting "Jas-i-Krishna, Jasas-wi-Krishna" which means
something on the order "renowned Krishna, divinely-renowned Krishna".
* "Krishna is to return to do battle with the 'Prince of Evil' who will desolate the
earth". No, that incarnation will be Purna-Avataras Kalki (who is the incarnation to
come), keep your incarnations of Vishnu straight.

CONCLUSION

The whole thesis of "copy cat religion" is based on assumptions and assertions that just
simply do not stand up when closely examined. The originators of this theory quote men
with names such as Gerald Massey, Albert Churchward, or Kersey Graves. I have not seen
any suitable quotes by these originators from the applicable literature. By this I mean
there are not quotes from sources such as the Vedas or Upishads for Hindu beliefs; there
are no quotes from the Buddhist Cannons (Pali Cannon, Chinese Cannon, Tibetan Canon);
there are no quotes from either the Gathas or the Avestas for Zoroastrian beliefs. Also
there are no statements from men such as Sri Swami Sivananda or A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada.

The statement "Sakya Buddha was crucified as a sin-atonement" should have sent anyone who
who read the "copy cat" thesis back to their comparative religion books or scanning the
internet. When I first read that statement, my first thought was "Where did that statement
come from, just when was Buddha crucified?". Many skeptics claimed that they have studied
the world's religions, the assertion "Buddha was crucified" should have made them start
examining the whole thesis for flaws. Yet the same document which advocates the "copy cat"
thesis has been posted word for word on many skeptic web sites. Today the internet is a
wonderful tool to examine the beliefs of the world's religions, there are Christian web
sites, Buddhist web sites, Hare Krishna web sites, Hindu web sites, there are even web
sites for Zoroastrianism (indeed there are about 150,000 Zoroastrians in the world today).
It is now easy to use the web and perform research on what these people believe; however,
the skeptics have apparently just accepted this "copy cat" thesis without reservation and
without examination.

There are more deities on the skeptics list of "crucified gods", but it would prove to be
a tiresome and useless exercise to examine and refute all of them. For the anti-theist
skeptic has accepted the theory of "copy cat religion" without reservation, it is now a
tenet of their "anti-theology", an article of faith. One of their prophets pontificated
this thesis and the anti-theist skeptic now accepts this theory as being an infallible
truth that now amount of evidence with shake their belief in its claims, for their prophet
has spoken and said "all are sun gods" and since they believe that their prophets cannot
err then they will hold to the "copy cat religion" thesis no matter what evidence produce
by others to prove that they are mistaken.

I wasn't as familiar with Horus' story, or Mithra's, Krishna's... Of course, one doesn't necessarily need to go down this path to be skeptical of accounts of Jesus. After all, even the Bible is often contradictory when mentioning him.... Heck, it can't even agree on how many times he went to Jerusalem!

The problem with the idea that Jesus was just part of a pagan ideology was this.....

Quexalcote of Mexico:

He was:
* born of a spotless virgin
* retired to the wilderness and fasted for forty days
* was worshipped as a God
* crucified between two thieves
* was buried and descended into Hell
* rose the third day

How can a resligion be considered copy cat when it preceded the story of Jesus?

Any thoughts?



[Edited on 1-8-2003 by Toltec]