PIC of Varyag starting reconstruction in Dalian

In the event of a conflict, all sea shore defence missile sites would be cruised missiled before anykind of landing activity happens (and the landing activity won't happen because there won't be a landing, cruise and ballistic missiles are good enough to accomplish what we want and by the way things are going we might have Lian Zhan as "president" of Taiwan in 4 years.

You talk with 100% certainty you or China would be able to nail or suppress every Taiwan effort, COWlan.

Hardly.

You know, despite that article I posted on 2006, China keeps building up against Taiwan, and Taiwan will become transformed into the most heavily fortifide place on earth. China's last resort will be to nuke, eh?

Not seeing it, but definately not seeing China simply steamrolling over Taiwan without taking substantial losses in the process. Bet.




seekerof

How did the Varyag end up with the chinese?..
Last I heard it was sent to china to be scrapped..
Then I did some research..
And as kozzy said it was commissioned quite recently in 1988..

Plus after looking up a bit more I realised that the VAryag hull is a upgrade of Kiev class carriers..

The Gorshkov (now Vikramaditya) with India is a quite smaller(Kiev Class) and a bit older too..(1982). IT was designed to hold the supersonic VTOL Yak-141..
The Varyag on the other hand was designed to hold MiG29K/Su27k jets..

However one must note that the Gorhkov has been refitted
(almost completely redesigned except for the hull) to hold MiG 29K fighters..
I'm presuming that'll still be lesser than the Varyag could hold..
I doubt the J-10 is carrier worthy(although I don't know for sure, so I think the chinese will have to acquire twist wing Su-27s from the Russians..
All in all a BIG deal which was BOUND to in the buzz if it so much as even had a CHANCE of materialising..At least the Americans and the Indians would get to know because of their overt/covert links to Russia.
But you never know..The chinese can spring a surprise whne one least expects..

If anyone's read 2061(sequel to AC clarke's 2010), they know what I mean!!..Even though its fiction..


Im still find it hard to believe that the chinese ARE pursuing carrier ambitions.. It doesn't seem to improve their coastal navy and they cannot project force in the Pacific anywhere successfully.. Unca Sam has that area under his belt..

Plus they're completely new to the world of carriers and what that entails..
One cannot train a carrier force at port..
You HAVE to enegae in 100's of exercises at least 500 to 1000 klicks of your coastline.. Actually distances of 2000-3000km are more adequate..
And I just cannot fathom the US sitting there and watching while the chinese wander off into international waters to test out their brand new toy..

India which has been operating carriers for around 2 decades, still has to learn a few things with ITS brand new(or rather old ) gorshkov..
The arrester cable assisted landings for one as India's prev british carriers operated on ly STOVL harriers..

Summary: IMO carrierdom is far off prospect for the PLAN and actually IMHO quite unfeasable to their navy needs( as I perceive)

Seekeroff, Although I don't like it myself, but I'm pretty sure the chinese could consume taiwan if they wanted..w/o a carrier
The PLANs capability of dealing with a american reprisal for that is however debatable..again IMHO..

Many argue this ships would be one of 3 CVN training ships destined for PLAN. Its not about the current situation CHina is looking at, its the future, we don't need a carrier now, as our problems are relatively close to us but in the future say 2035, China would need and must have carriers to protect its rights, say energy/trade routes, etc etc. These would be used for procticing carrier landing and take-offs. Varyag is the only one that could be refitted as the other ones aren't worthy. Carrier isn't China's top priority, subs and our escort fleet is the highest priority, we have to pump DDGs out like bunnies for the next ten years and produce those SSN and SSKS out in dozens. Without a good escort fleet, CVNs are just sitting ducks waiting to be hit and destroyed. I think building indegnous CVNs are planned for the 2020 time frame and I heard China's second period (its a time table for PLAN, 2000-2015, 2015-2035, 2035-2050) is the time frame where carriers are to be mateured and built uniquely while the third period is the one where China needs to build enough to challenge America Globally.

what's this rumor I am hearing about the new maanshan class frigates having serious problems?

Details are scarce but it seems No: 525 has possibly broken it's keel through design flaw or run aground.

Either that or there is problems with the french built engines... anyhow No: 525 is going back into Hudong dry-dock for major repair/alternation



[edit on 10-5-2005 by Lucretius]

Hey,

I don't believe that the Chinese wish to use any of their proposed carrier fleets within the pacific rim, I would have to say, in my opinion, that they would be more interested with the trade routes around the philippines and of course taiwan.

I personally don't believe that at the minute the chinese are interested in SSN's Thier first nuke SSBN was a write off in nearly all respects, I don't see why they would start designing Nuke boats within the next 10 years while they have the SSKs, Kilos and the new AIP kilos being pumped out by Russia, although it should be noted that these folks are really starting to get playful with their new toys based on what the japanese and taiwan naval sources have said, I believe that their SSN ideas will come later, 2010/2015 unless they start hiring Akulas and Victors, some thing I would imagine the russians "might" agree to with their funding problems, hell they have quite a few typhoons rusting in the northern fleet areas... now if they hired one of those suckers.....

I have to agree the Chinese DDG fleet is undergoing one hell of an update, they sure as hell are getting their act together, building new vessels in a sense up to UK or US standards, there has also been some mention of new training facticties opening around Shagihi [Spelling?]. From all respects, I think the Chinese are ditching their conscript navy look and looking at the US, UK, Swedish etc for their new goal of how a new chinese navy should look and most importantly... Train.

Daedalus - At the minute, based on their production of new vessels, their setting up of foreign operational naval bases, I think that the age of the Costal Chinese navy are over.

Another fact is that the chinese can rightly float where ever the hell it likes with its new toy, the US may not like it but they can't do a dammed thing about it, unless they plan to break international law.

I agree with you, that china could take taiwan, but with very heavy loses and I don't see them doing that, unless they can distract the USN from the Taiwan situation for at least 1 week or two.

Lucretius - I did hear of an engine fire, while training, no sure if it is the same vessel, but I suppose it would fit.

- Phil

reply to post by Seekerof


www.defenseindustrydaily.com...-2806

Why do you need to put her in a yard with large crane service.??

Do any of you know how much a large shipboard air conditioner weighs?? Not just one of them but several spread throughout the ship. How about the various pumps which service such systems..both fresh water as well as salt water.
Let us say in a modification or update you wanted to take out these air conditioner units and replace them with more modern units and support equipment to accompany thus...new pumps..heat exchangers et al. We are not just talking about removing these parts but also in many cases cutting out various decks to get this new equipment in and out. Quite a job just to change out such a piece of equipment. Such an Air Conditioner unit is often placed deep in the bowels of a ship to take advantage of salt water hull valves..below the water line...they are not usually placed on the upper decks.

Remember something too on a warship..the airconditioners are not necessarily for crew comfort..but for the protection of all this temperature. sensitive electronic equipment

Any of you know how much a steam driven electrical generator system weighs?? Engineers might want to upgrade/replace this equipment too. They can be as large or larger than an air conditioning unit.

This kind of work is more easily done in a drydock where there are usually large overhead gantry cranes and also smaller boom type cranes as well. Also and especially for an aircraft carrier in a dry dock...large vehicle ramps for forklifts to go on and off the ship carrying various loads to small to bother with crane service.
You get on a modern aircraft carrier in a Navy Yard or a civilian shipyard..the forklifts are running pretty much 24/7..like little ants scurrying around facillitating lots of other evolutions.

Good Riggers, crane hookup men, forklift operators..crane operaters too are a must in such an operation. They make the jobs of so many others possible and easier.

This would be true whether the ship was being turned into a casino or something else. However...I find the casino story a bit thin. Lots of other ships on the market more suited to being turned into a casino that an old Aircraft carrier. To many dangerous areas on a ship like this for untutored/unskilled civilians.
I am picturing in my mind..the really high dollar exclusive gambling games going on down in the weapons magazines where the crowd can be more exclusively controlled. You would probably kill or injure alot of the service people trying to get into there drinks and food. And if you had an accident and the elevators quit working you would probably kill most of the older gamblers or women in heels trying to get them up the manual escape ladders ..or scuttles.

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom