Declaration of Independance, 2005

Take a stand..

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

-Declaration of Independance, 1776

I've often wondered what it was like for our founding fathers. Obviously, on that one single day, they commited the ultimate high treason of their time. Had we lost the war, they would have been publicly slaughtered. Yet, they stood up for what they believed. In the Declaration, they stated their grievances over their current King. They listed the reasons, and stated their seperation from the Government ruling body.

www.archives.gov...

If you had to sit down today, and compile a list of overwhelming complaints that you have with the "King" or in our case, the current United States Government, would it differ much from the complaints of our Founding fathers?

Let's take a look..

I. He has refused his assent to laws the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

The general public, ranging from media, to critics, to the average Joe on the streets seem to think these new laws that strip our rights aren't good, or wholesome, for the public good. Is the United States refusing its assent to laws that are wholesome and necassary?

Or are they assenting to laws that strip our rights and pillage our checks and balances?

II. He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be obtained; and, when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

How many objections, laws, and acts has our government completely ignored or refused to pick a side on due to political "ramifications"?

How many objections, laws, or acts have been brought to congress, swiftly sidestepped and ignored?

III. He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

We don't even have to really touch on this one.. because the average Joe has absolutely no representation in our current legislature. Care to dispute this? Throw a protest; so they can stick you in a cage 4 blocks from where you should be protesting.. out of sight out of mind.



I'm not going to bring forth examples of every complaint stated in our Declaration.. I'd be typing for weeks..



But my topic for discussion is this..

If you had to sit down, and compile a list of complaints that would be presented to our Government as a form of independance, what would *YOU* want to see on the new declaration?

What thoughts of *YOURS* do you think could curve this country, or type of government, into the right direction?

"For us democracy is a question of human dignity. And human dignity is political freedom, the right to freely express opinion and the right to be allowed to criticise and form opinions. Human dignity is the right to health, work, education and social welfare. Human dignity is the right and the practical possibility to shape the future with others. These rights, the rights of democracy, are not reserved for a select group within society, they are the rights of all the people."

At what point do we dignify ourselves? At what point do we take a stand and address this government we do not elect? Sure, we vote for our representatives, but the second they get to capitol hill, they no longer care what we think.

At what point do we stand up to a government run by corporate 'donations' and influence?

At what point do we stand up for our civil rights that are being stripped away in every possible way?

Go read the Declaration of Independance, and come back and tell us all what you'd like to change..

Here's mine.. I can sum them all up in quotes.. because sadly, they've all been addressed, but sadly neglected by our King.. erm, I mean our Government..

"... the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy."

Corporate influence negates democracy.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

Patriot act, RE: The war on Terrorism (the same terrorism thats been happening since the dawn of time)


Let's form our own declaration.. just for kicks..

QuietSoul,

I have to commend you on a wonderful idea and proposal.

Please accept my vote for you on "Way Above", you richly deserve it.

Cheers

BHR

FDR proposed an additional Bill of Rights, an Economic Bill of Rights, that I think would be great today.

Sixty years ago, on January 11, 1944, in the midst of another American war, President Roosevelt spoke forcefully and eloquently about the greater meaning and higher purpose of American security in a post-war America. In 2004, the principles and ideas conveyed by FDR's words matter as much now as they did sixty years ago, and the Franklin D. Roosevelt American Heritage Center is proud to reprint a selection of FDR's vision for the security and economic liberty of the American people in war and peace.

...

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.

LINK

I'd want the right to school my child as I see fit.

I do not plan on putting my son in government indoctrination centers.

Amethyst,

What makes you think you know better than those trained to teach?

What makes you think what you want to teach is any better for your child?

I am not being cheeky these are serious questions.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Amethyst,

What makes you think you know better than those trained to teach?

What makes you think what you want to teach is any better for your child?

I am not being cheeky these are serious questions.

Cheers

BHR

Bill, not a Troll or flame, but what makes you think, you (or anyone else but Amethyst) has the right to ask those questions.

In my opinion: An even more serious question.

IA,

The reason I think I can ask those questions is that the child in question is just that a child not a possession.

Being a parent does not convey omnipotence.

So we return to my questions.

For all I know Amethyst may be fully capable to teach and what they teach will be a fully rounded program for their child.

However, I do not know that at this time and hence my questions.

Cheers

BHR

BHR:

I agree that a child is not a possession, but it is a responsibility. My son is my blood and I will do as I see fit. If someone were to ask me that question I would tell them, in the nicest possible way, to mind their own business. Even though I know that was not your intent, the questions just seem foreward.





Beside I think Amethyst meant private school or home school...which is getting surprisingly organized these days.

Originally posted by Imperium Americana
BHR:
My son is my blood and I will do as I see fit.

With all due respect, I find this statement extremely possessive. As a parent myself, I've come to realize (through my own long-winded stubborness) that our children are complete separate individuals. We are merely here to shelter, feed, protect, and guide. By the time a child is five years old, his complete identity is formed.

We may be able to counsel and instill some values and decency; however, aside from genetics, our children are not ours. Much of the time, we learn more from our children than they do from us.

BTW, I'm sure you did not mean for your above statement to be interpreted the way I explained (possession). It just stood out for me. Most likely because of what I explained above is a recent 'awakening' for me. A friend of mine is going through some horrible times with her teenage boy and this issue was brought up last week. It was an 'ah ha' moment for me.

I had a very cool quote from Kahlil Gibrans's The Prophet to post here. It spoke of children and what they really are to us.

Alas, it is off topic.
We should return to the topic, Declaration of Independence, 2005, please

Originally posted by SourGrapes

With all due respect, I find this statement extremely possessive. As a parent myself, I've come to realize (through my own long-winded stubborness) that our children are complete separate individuals. We are merely here to shelter, feed, protect, and guide. By the time a child is five years old, his complete identity is formed.

I was not going to reply. I realized we were a bit off topic, but since the thread is not going anywhere....LOL

My comment was possessive. Who goes to jail if my child is not fed, clothed, or is lost, beaten, or suffers from any other form of neglect? My Wife and I. Who is responsible for loving my child? My Wife & I. And who is responsible for my child's academic endeavors? My Wife & I. There are others whom share a portion of these responsibilities, but only the parent assumes this total weight from day one. That does not make a child a possession. Children comprise another form of responsibility. The only other approximation is other family members (which BTW revolve around the concept of the sibling and parent-child relationship).

It is obvious we have different parenting philosophies. I agree that children are individuals. But to say at 5 yrs. a child's identity is complete is silly. Hell my ID is still in limbo at times. Am I more formed than when I was 5....yes. But am I complete...no.
I have just watched my parents divorce after 30 years of marriage. In the ensuing 5 years they both have undergone a process of re-formulation. We all experience formative evolution through out our lives. So to say that a 5 year old is complete is factually in error. Now is the structure in place at 5...for some and for some children it is earlier/later.

We may be able to counsel and instill some values and decency; however, aside from genetics, our children are not ours. Much of the time, we learn more from our children than they do from us.

This is complete nonsense. "We MAY be able...." As a parent you WILL instill you ethics, morality, and knowledge. Some of it intentional; some of it not. You sound as if you are just hoping to give something to them....do not worry you will have a profound effect on them. Be it negative or positive your actions will dynamically alter your child. All children are like sponges, they will absorb whatever their environment has to offer.
Think about what your child will learn from you: language, values, relationships, responsibility, and etc. These are some of the most important life lessons. Most of us continue to grow and mature as we get older, but we learn the most between 0-25. Hell if I had listened to my parents more...I would have been far better off. But that is the nature of parental knowledge, sometime it works and sometimes it will only work in the future.

So I disagree that a parent learns more from their child, than vise versa. I do think that what I have learned (from being a parent and having a close relationship with my child) has had an immediate and profound effect on me. The loss of self was one of the best concepts I could have learned. I was only able to shed that selfish "me" once I was faced with the responsibility of my child.

On a personal note:
I am not in anyway saying that you are a bad parent. Nor do I think you are saying that about me. I would much rather be accused of being too possessive than apathetic…right?
In watching my friends and their children I have seen various forms of parental “styles”. I think I can safely say that, while there are errors in all of them (including my own), each are unique to their relationship. That is a good thing. No two relationships are the same and so consequently not two styles should be either. My wife, who is a family psychologist, has a “off the record” cynical (but funny) theorem of parenting. To paraphrase badly: “No matter what you do, as a parent, you will screw your child up. So the best thing to do is to screw up your child exactly the same way your parent screwed you up. That way you have a understanding of how to help your child. Any attempt to change will result in un-intended problems that you will not be ready for!” LOL

/sorry for the thread-jack, but could not resist!

IA,

Do not worry about the "thread-jack" since as you can see this thread is going nowhere anyway.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Cheers

BHR

1. We shall not limit freedom of thought, speech, sexual orientation or Religion and the rights that come with these..
   
2. We shell not judge on race, creed, gender, ideology or sexual orientation but actions.
   
3. We shall be respectful of the rights of others and give equality to all regardless.
   
4. We shall be honest, in Government, Industry and any arm of the state.
   
5. We shall be responsible for our actions.
   
6. We shall be fair in all matters to all persons.
   
7. We shall be considerate of the happiness and well being of others.
   
8. We shall have the right to protect ourselves from the Tyranny be it by Government or the Public.
   
9. We shall nurture these values by word & deed in our children, family, friends and acquaintances.
   
10. We shall not limit inquiring or testing by their consequences, on any matter, including this Constitution.

The Removel of Political Parties so that everyone stands as an Independent and reprosents the States like they should do.

National Referenda on Important Social issues such as homo-sexual marriages. That's not for the Government to decide but for the people and their morals to decide.

Governments should never spend more then they earn - so they can't go into debt.

Education, Health and the Economy should come before the Military. If we do not educate our children then the new "discoveries" that we need will stop.

All I could think of, off the top of my head.

Odium,

Good post mate.

This thread deserves to be a sticky.

Cheers

BHR

Thank you BillHicksRules, was attempting to get this thread back on topic and it is also something I feel strongly for - re-writing and correcting a lot of European Nations "declarations and constitution" due to the fact we really don't have one that is "clear cut" enough for me.

Curme, thje thing about that "Econonmic Bill of Rights", is that one already has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. One has the right to pursue every line on that list. The problem is, nobody can guarantee success. Nobody can even guarantee that the citizen has the motivation to strive for success. On top of that, nobody is big enough to make me shop at any particular citizen's store to insure his success. Just ask Wal-Mart. Apparently, however, they don't need my patronage to succeed.

BillHicks, you missed a very important point. Nobody said that Amythest was the best applicant for the job of teaching his/her children. If you wait around for that, your children won't ever get taught. The point Amythest was making was that she does not want her children being indoctrinated into the plantation system by the governmental school system. On top of that, considering the system pays less attention to hard subjects and more to social reengineering, I'd be willing to bet that a dolt like myself could give a kid a better education than the school system can.

QuietSoul, this is an outstanding thread. You have typed what a lot of us patriots have thought about but not put into words as you have. Excellent job!
The fact that the government does not go by the law of the land, but warps its meaning to the point of being unrecognizable to accomplish its goals, is a darned good reason to take back our government from an arbitrary and tyrannical government. That is what the government has become.
Read this and run a patch through the barrel, boys!
www.foxnews.com...

[edit on 5-7-2005 by Thomas Crowne]

I don't have kids (only a few nieces and God-Children), but if I did, I would NOT want them being edumacated in the public school system.

Another thing that burns me up is being taxed to support a school system I wouldn't have my own kids in! That is not right. If you don't have kids, you shouldn't have to be taxed on that.

The only problem with America Education is the lack of money placed into it, it's sad when a Nation spends so little of its GNP on such an important aspect, which to me out-ranks the Military.

After all, those weapons they use and the new weapons they need, come from the Education they give those children - yet they seem to miss such a thing.

I also think any sort of constitution should have such a thing placed on it, say 15% of GNP always has to be spent on Education especially due to the age we are living in. Within years there will be no need for "factory" labour anymore as more and more of it is being done by machines.

The Declaration of Independence is worthless as of right now, other than a fine artifact of nation's history. I wish people would stop rambnling on about their right to the pursuit of happiness and life and whatever it states. NO right such as that exist.

Frosty, then it is your job to make people see the light. It's easy to stand around and whine about not having those rights but make other people wake up. Get people thinking, talking out in the open. It's easy enough to be an "Arm Chair Anarchist" but it only counts when you do it out on the street.