Israel, Darfur, Rwanda, and the Jewish Holocaust...

Various Israeli politicians, religious and social figures have throughout recent history described Israel as a "place of last refuge" for Jews around the globe, a piece of land where they can be safe despite having suffered persecution in their countries of origin. Many will say that, after the holocaust in the middle of the last century, they will go to any length to secure such a land. The holocaust, it would seem, has become (at least for some) a moral prerequisite to Israel's continued existance.

Now, I consider myself a realist. I am neither for nor against the existance of a Jewish state specifically (although I'm against religious states in a more general sense), and whatever justifications Zionists may make for Israel's existance, I concede that the fact of the matter is that there are a lot of Jews and a lot of Palestinians living in that nation and they both are not going anywhere soon and have a right to live in peace, and both peoples should recognize this and strive to work together.

But... I have always wondered, if you are a.) going to make it loud and clear to the world that your nation is set up in response to a genocide, and b.) maintain one of the worlds top 5 military capabilities, shouldn't you take a more proactive stance in intervening in genocides currently taking place around the world? Is it because a policy of global intervention in concert with the UN could backfire on Israel, being that the UN has historically found itself at odds with that state? Or is it because genocide is only worth arming yourself to near superpower capacity as a response to if it's genocide that affects your own people?

This isn't a "heap the blame" post, it's honest curiosity. I would assume that if Israel "put it's money where it's mouth is" in terms of preventing genocide, it would aid its global image?

-koji K.

[edit on 5-5-2005 by koji_K]

[edit on 5-5-2005 by koji_K]

You are a brave man Koji...certain people will deride you for even mentioning such things!

BTW, read 'The Holocaust Industry' for a bit of a perspective on this.

I guess the arguement would be that Israel is surrounded by enemies on all sides and cant risk troop commitments abroad in case of an attack.

Also Israels militaray is not really designed for long range peace keeping, mosre for defence of their territory so it may not be the most practical force for peacekeeping.

However if and when peace comes peacekeeping could be the route the Israelis take.

Originally posted by koji_K

This isn't a "heap the blame" post, it's honest curiosity. I would assume that if Israel "put it's money where it's mouth is" in terms of preventing genocide, it would aid its global image?

For one thing its a VERY small country (about the size of Vermont I think) surrounded by very large countries that would like to kill every man woman and child there. It is only a few miles wide at points and could be over-run in hours if it weren't for its well trained Army. To be blunt they can barely protect themselves.

Its ALREADY hated by most of the world so how is it invading Rwanda going to help? If Israel came in on the side of a group being massacred half the world would be screaming about how they "had it coming" or it was all a "Zionist Plot To Take Over The Region" You would get dozens of countries pumping money and weapons to the side doing the killing to help free them from their "Zionist Overlords" etc etc.

How COULD they help?

Amuk & Uncle Joe:

You both make fair points. I suppose then I would have to ask, what does Israel do in a non-military context to prevent genocide globally? Does it support politically international initiatives to intervene in affected regions? (If anyone knows of any web sites detailing Israel's activities in this matter I'd be very grateful!)

I suppose what bothers me about this, is that Israel takes a somewhat shrill tone when it comes to genocide, but I haven't seen any actions that would "impress" me. It's one thing to react to past persecutions, it's another entirely different one to prevent them before they exist. Obviously it's not just Israel that has a responsibility, the world has a duty to prevent genocide, but if you're going to make something an issue, then at least have something to back it up with. It's the difference between looking simply reactionary or looking like a true protagonist.

-koji K.

[edit on 5-5-2005 by koji_K]

what exactly, do you think Israel could do about preventing genocide?

Originally posted by koji_Ka.) going to make it loud and clear to the world that your nation is set up in response to a genocide, and b.) maintain one of the worlds top 5 military capabilities, shouldn't you take a more proactive stance in intervening in genocides currently taking place around the world? Is it because a policy of global intervention in concert with the UN could backfire on Israel, being that the UN has historically found itself at odds with that state? Or is it because genocide is only worth arming yourself to near superpower capacity as a response to if it's genocide that affects your own people?

a) not true, the brittish had the plans for reestablishing israel before hitler even had power.

b) top 5 in training but size and power projection they are quite another story, this is why they dont intervene, because they dont have the ability, size or the economic strength to.

superpower capacity? lol please, youre far over-exaggerating here.

Originally posted by koji_KDoes it support politically international initiatives to intervene in affected regions? (If anyone knows of any web sites detailing Israel's activities in this matter I'd be very grateful!)

israel isnt exactly in any situation to help anyone...

Actualy, there are several organizations in Israel (governmental and others) concerned with human-rights and threatened minorities worldwide, that send aid when possible: those include general aid such as food, and groups of doctors that travel troubled areas and try to help. Such organizations and its people often think that the Holocaust is a reason to help others.

However, because of the political climate no one is intrested in the IDF in any UN peace-keeping force, Sudan wouldn't let them in ,nor Israelies would trust UN forces after incidents in the area concerning UN forces and terrorists.

Also because official Israely help is often scorned, many privetly volunteer in international aid organizations. For example, in recent years it is popular among young israelies who tour Africa to teach English or Math for a time in local villages as part of a some locally-established organizatin.

Isn't one of the sides in Sudan Islamic?

Lol, sending Israel in to Sudan would be like waving a red flag infront of a spanish bull.

Also, the Israeli forces while highly trained, relies on conscripts, they should be send conscripts out for such missions in my opinion. Conscripts are justified for defence of a nation only.

Originally posted by eslag90
what exactly, do you think Israel could do about preventing genocide?

Well, as some posters have mentioned, setting up institutes designed to research and deal with the problem is one thing, and to my knowledge it has many. I can understand that Israel is severely shackled by its image in the Muslim world from direct participation in peackeeping efforts. But other things would include arms and trade embargos against parties suspected of genocide and financial and political support of international "anti-genocide" initiatives and bodies.

The burden of preventing genocide doesn't rest with Israel alone, obviously, but I've had a much easier time finding information about other countries reactions and policies dealing with the topic- mainly because any web or research app search including the terms "Israel" and "genocide" invariably turns up 1,000 hits about the Holocaust, but not other more recent genocides. Another difficulty is that there are many sites which are clearly anti-Isreali in tone and I am naturally doubtful of the accuracy of any information I find on them (such as ones detailing Isreal's arming of the Serbs in Bosnia). I do not doubt that Israel has taken what actions it can, globally, given its limitations, I just want to find out about them.

-koji K.

Originally posted by namehere
a) not true, the brittish had the plans for reestablishing israel before hitler even had power.

Yes, that is correct. That was in exchange for the Jewish effort to drag the US into WWI

Originally posted by Aelita

Originally posted by namehere
a) not true, the brittish had the plans for reestablishing israel before hitler even had power.

Yes, that is correct. That was in exchange for the Jewish effort to drag the US into WWI

yes- i'm aware of the history of the founding of israel, this is different from the justification for israel's alleged inability to retract to the 1947 (or '67) borders. i'm not saying the reasons given by many for israel's existance are historically accurate, i'm just saying you'll always hear someone high up in israeli politics using the holocaust as justification for israel's existance. (and i iterate that i am not denying the strength of this argument.) justification isn't the same as a historical account, though it is of course (in this instance) based on history.

-koji K.

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as posted by koji_K
i'm just saying you'll always hear someone high up in israeli politics using the holocaust as justification for israel's existance.

Care to provide a current example or direct mention of an Israeli "high up" official doing what you are asserting/alleging?



seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof

as posted by koji_K
i'm just saying you'll always hear someone high up in israeli politics using the holocaust as justification for israel's existance.

Care to provide a current example or direct mention of an Israeli "high up" official doing what you are asserting/alleging?



seekerof

Are you serious? Turn on your TV today, the holocaust remembrance march has just about everyone saying something or other along the following lines:

"We are gathered here today, 20,000 people, members of different religions and nations, leaders and citizens, at the March of the Living, an impressive and inspiring demonstration of solidarity and remembrance," Sharon said.

"I arrived here today from Jerusalem, the capital of the state of Israel, the only place in the world where Jews have the right and capability to defend themselves by themselves," he said.

Some six million Jews perished in the Nazi Holocaust, which is known in Hebrew as the Shoah, and which led to the creation of the state of Israel in 1948 in British-mandated Palestine.

news.yahoo.com.../afp/20050505/wl_mideast_afp/israelholocaust_050505174351

-koji K.

[edit on 6-5-2005 by koji_K]