Secrecy, Lies and Propaganda Sweeping the U.S.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Ah, the liberal approach...who cares about what the authorities in Spain found about a link between Iraq and at least one of the terrorists involved in 9/11.

You mean Yusuf Galan's invitation to a party by an Iraqi diplomat? I've yet to read anything regarding any evidence that the diplomat knew about Yusuf Galan being an alleged terrorist or that the diplomat's invitation was done knowingly by Saddam Hussein as a means to conduct dealings that would lead to the terror events of 9/11/01.

Who cares that the intelligence from every country in the world was saying Saddam had WMD.

The evidence has laid bare the fallacies promulgated with Iraq and WMD. There were no stockpiles found so all those intelligence agencies, like the U.S. itself, were lying.

Who cares that even president Putin told us ever since 9/11 up to the war in Iraq that their intelligence was telling them that Saddam was working on making terrorist attacks on US soil....

Mere words and nothing more.

Who cares that Saddam broke the sanctions, lied and manipulated the UN, and the US while 2 million iraqis died, 560,000 of them being children during the reign of Saddam and because of the UN sanctions which were not working...

There were non-violent means of changing this situation. Changing the sanctions for one would have helped.

Who cares that Saddam was paying the families of terrorists who killed Americans and Israelis.

Exactly. Why would the U.S. need to invade and take over a country, killing thousands to get at a single man who gave money to families of dead terrorists? Thats about the most absurd thing I've read regarding justification for blowing up Iraq.

Let's all pray for peace and disarm the US...the US should disarm first, who cares that the rest of the world will never disarm and would probably take advantage that the US is disarmed...

You can maintain a military without going around killing other people for alleged pre-emptive defensive purposes.

Liberals don't give a damn about the US it seems....except that they want to turn the US into country of potheads....

You would prefer the U.S. to be a country of manipulating and manipulated killers instead?

[edit on 5-5-2005 by Frith]

Originally posted by deltaboy
didn't Iran just killed a Iranian Canadian reporter? didnt Iran just ban Al Jazeera. America aint not the most freeist in freedom of information but its better than Iran, o yeah we still have the freedom of information act.

Are you comparing industrialized, Western America - the home of the free and brave, to a developing country in the Middle East when it comes to your standard of press freedom and free speech? This report never claimed that Iran was ahead of the U.S. when it comes to press freedom. In fact this article has nothing to do with Iran.

Your logic goes: "Judge - why are you on my case when I just killed 11 guys, while Jeffrey Damer killed 15 guys!

Logic: "This case is not about Jeffrey Damer - YOU are the one standing trial, not Damer."

Nobody here is saying that Iran is a totally open society. This article was posted here by me to show people like you that the U.S. is not so free, open and sincere as you tend to believe or as you claim. The U.S. is twisitn the facts, and even spreading outright misinformation so that it can manipulate the public opinion in the U.S. and the world, in order for it to be able to pursue its agenda, whatever it may be. It also shows what a hypocrite and liar the U.S. is when it tells the world that it's on a mission to deliver democracy and freedom in CERTAIN countries. The U.S. should not even talk about democracy and freedom to other countries when these sort of things occur in the U.S.!

[

Who cares that the intelligence from every country in the world was saying Saddam had WMD.

No, no, no! Wait a moment! "Every country in the world.....?" ONLY the U.S. intelligence and perhaps Israel's intelligence said anything of the sort - No other intelligence ever made any such claims! Where do you get your information from? Probably the same media that the U.S. government controls and bribes! There was never any evidence because there were no WMD!

Who cares that even president Putin told us ever since 9/11 up to the war in Iraq that their intelligence was telling them that Saddam was working on making terrorist attacks on US soil....

Putin was against the war in Iraq - why would he say something like that to the U.S. when he was trying all he could to prevent the war?

Who cares that Saddam broke the sanctions, lied and manipulated the UN, and the US while 2 million iraqis died, 560,000 of them being children during the reign of Saddam and because of the UN sanctions which were not working...

Most of those Iraqis died as a result of the U.S. policies in Iraq. It was the U.S. who supported Saddam and armed him:

- It was the CIA which assisted in the coup which brought the baath fascists to power in Iraq.

- The U.S. then supported Saddam and sold him weapons of all sorts.

- The U.S. supported Saddam Hussein in the war with Iran and provided him with military, strategic and logistic intelligence - Later in the war the U.S. was providing BOTH Iran and Iraq with intelligence!!! And yet later in the war the U.S. was selling weapons to Iraq, while at the same time secretely selling weapons to Iran, and using the money it got to pay for the Contras in Nicaragua!!! Talk about having double standard and talk about being rotten! Can you imagine how many Iraqis and Iranians have been killed because of these dirty tricks and games!! And now you want the world to believe that the U.S. is concerned about the welfare of the pfeople of the Middle East..... HA!!! Yeah right!

- It was the U.S. which gave Saddam the green light to invade Kuwait.

- It was the U.S. who told the Iraqi Shia and Kurdish populations to rise against Saddam and that they had nothing to fear because the U.S. would stand behind them and protect them!

- And it was the U.S. who stood by and didn't move a finger as the Shias and Kurds rose against Saddam and he massacred them in the hundreds of thousands!!!

- It was the U.S. that supplied Saddam with a lot of what he needed to produce chemical weapons with, which he then used against the Kurds and the Iranians, killing tens of thousands of Iranians.

Let's all pray for peace and disarm the US...the US should disarm first, who cares that the rest of the world will never disarm and would probably take advantage that the US is disarmed...

There is actually a movement in Europe calling for the world to unite and disarm the U.S. -- If things continue the way they are, I think that might be a good solution! But we will need a devastating world war instigated by the U.S. before the world will be able to accomplish something of the sort. But the best solution would be that the U.S. government stops doing what it is doing while there is still time, and steps aside, allowing a lawful, peaceful, and decent and really democratic government to take its place, which will distance itself from imperialism, bullying and war.mongering, and thus keep its armed forces intact, but for GOOD purposes.

Liberals don't give a damn about the US it seems....except that they want to turn the US into country of potheads....

Liberals are the ones who do care for the U.S.! They care for the people of the U.S. not only for the filthy rich elite of corrupt and morally corrupt crooks! Look at Clinton's administration - Everytime the U.S. army was used it was used for the reason to help those in need - whether the Muslims in Bosnia or Kosovo, or those in need in Somalia. Unfortunately though, good people like Clinton are also controlled by the elite of crooks and can therefore not always do what they want but are forced to satisfy the greed of the crooks as well. The Liberals must disarm the elite of crooks, then maybe there is no need to disarm the U.S. military.

The distaste you and many Americans have for liberals, is a phenomenon resembling the distaste one would have for liberals in societies where segregation, apartheid and other injustices exist. It is the distaste of the ignorants and arrogants. It's really a distaste for humanity, and a celebration of covert fascism.



[edit on 5-5-2005 by Siroos]

You have voted Siroos for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Although I might not agree with everything you say, still, I love reading your posts. They are very well written and a class apart, unlike most of the unwarranted personal attacks that many members resort to.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
The only lies and propaganda sweeping the U.S. I've seen lately were generated by ATS poster Siroos.

[edit on 5/5/2005 by djohnsto77]

The difference between your claim and my claim, is that I have sources to back up my claim with. Yours is just a biased statement in place of a rational, intelligent and mature response to something you might not agree with.

Either you're too lazy to present rational and intelligent arguments contradicting my claim and what the article that I posted here claims, or you're just not capable of doing so. I have a strong feeling it's the latter.

[edit on 5-5-2005 by Siroos]

[edit on 5-5-2005 by Siroos]

Boy, this is funny.

All you who disagree with Siroos resort to attacking him, all the while totally disregarding the issues raised in this thread.



Y'all are doing a good job of making yourselves look bad, and a better job at making me laugh. I noticed NONE of you had much to say about Armstrong Williams and others, or the fact that our govt intentionally plants fake news. Good job at skirting the issues.

I can't even begin to tell you how much ridiculous crap I've seen in the news. All I'll say is that studies now show that mercury is GOOD for you, and GREAT for developing children! Now we gotta get those losers who warned us about mercury thermometers...

Originally posted by Siroos

Liberals are the ones who do care for the U.S.! They care for the people of the U.S. not only for the filthy rich elite of corrupt and morally corrupt crooks! Look at Clinton's administration - Everytime the U.S. army was used it was used for the reason to help those in need - whether the Muslims in Bosnia or Kosovo, or those in need in Somalia. Unfortunately though, good people like Clinton are also controlled by the elite of crooks and can therefore not always do what they want but are forced to satisfy the greed of the crooks as well. The Liberals must disarm the elite of crooks, then maybe there is no need to disarm the U.S. military.

The distaste you and many Americans have for liberals, is a phenomenon resembling the distaste one would have for liberals in societies where segregation, apartheid and other injustices exist. It is the distaste of the ignorants and arrogants. It's really a distaste for humanity, and a celebration of covert fascism.



[edit on 5-5-2005 by Siroos]

Another brilliant post!! I would have quoted your whole thing, but one warning per day is my limit I was actually preparing a rebuttal when I noticed yours.

I've enjoyed this thread.

Its a hoot and a howl

So many intelligent people
So much denial

I love it

"Are you comparing industrialized, Western America - the home of the free and brave, to a developing country in the Middle East when it comes to your standard of press freedom and free speech? This report never claimed that Iran was ahead of the U.S. when it comes to press freedom. In fact this article has nothing to do with Iran. "

Ohh, I see you have a double standard when it comes to Iran. :shk:

Originally posted by Trustnone
"Are you comparing industrialized, Western America - the home of the free and brave, to a developing country in the Middle East when it comes to your standard of press freedom and free speech? This report never claimed that Iran was ahead of the U.S. when it comes to press freedom. In fact this article has nothing to do with Iran. "

Ohh, I see you have a double standard when it comes to Iran. :shk:

What double standard? No one in this thread said that Iran was any better than the US when it came to free speach, that would be a double standard. The whole point of this thread, which so many have missed, is that the US shoud be the #1 country with free press.....period. We spout off about freedom and democracy but it is all an illusion. The powers that be only want their version of freedom & democracy, a.k.a. the freedom to make as much money as possible for all of their rich friends regardless of who pays the price - Americans or otherwise. They buy the media to tell their story alone. One person in here made a point to say that the "liberal media" only reports the bad things. Well most of it is bad cuz right now this world sucks!!! You have a friggin whackjob and his buddies running the US government like some crazed idiot pissing the rest of the world off. Are we supposed to ignore this?? My friggin tax dollars are paying for people to be killed for PROFIT. Call me a lefty or a liberal. I don't care. Wrong is wrong....period.

While many down our media as propaganda tools used for the government. I guess foreign media is clean?? especially in Iran??

Ah, this is quite a joke, I will not buy into anyone who claims the US media is plagued with propaganda. Their source??? probably their media, anti-american websites.

I'm not implying that our media isn't corrupted in anyway. Im simply saying that theres worse propaganda out in the world and in many places people call home.

You probably don't know it yet

No such thing as unbiased media

Originally posted by evanfitz
While many down our media as propaganda tools used for the government. I guess foreign media is clean?? especially in Iran??

Ah, this is quite a joke, I will not buy into anyone who claims the US media is plagued with propaganda. Their source??? probably their media, anti-american websites.

I'm not implying that our media isn't corrupted in anyway. Im simply saying that theres worse propaganda out in the world and in many places people call home.

You probably don't know it yet

No such thing as unbiased media

Once again, (slaps forehead) another person who missed the point. Why does everyone who disagrees with this post bring up Iran. Since when is Iran the country that we model ourselves after?!? Who said that there weren't worse places in the world than the US. The point is that we should be the best........period. Thats it!!! We are the richest most powerful country on the planet - which at one time was a great thing. Now that corporations own damn near all of it, they own the media as well. We should be the shining example of what the highest point in our civilization should be. We should set the stage for how developing countries will model themselves after. You say there is no such thing as an unbiased media - that may be true. But to tell only your 10% of the story and call the other 90% of the story a liberal bias...that might as well be a lie. Every story has an element of truth to it. It is not so much what IS reported, it is what ISN'T reported that scares the hell out of me.

Originally posted by Siroos

No, no, no! Wait a moment! "Every country in the world.....?" ONLY the U.S. intelligence and perhaps Israel's intelligence said anything of the sort - No other intelligence ever made any such claims! Where do you get your information from? Probably the same media that the U.S. government controls and bribes! There was never any evidence because there were no WMD!

How fast do people in these forums keep forgetting the evidence, and links, which have been presented in here over and over....perhaps marijuana has something to do with the forgetfulness of many members in these forums.....


Here are some links, again........ on what the intelligence from other countries were saying before the war on Iraq....

Monday, 28 June, 2004: Illicit sales of uranium from Niger were being negotiated with five states including Iraq at least three years before the US-led invasion of Iraq, senior European intelligence officials have told the Financial Times [FT]. Intelligence officers learned between 1999 and 2001 that uranium smugglers planned to sell illicitly mined Nigerien uranium ore, or refined ore called yellow cake, to Iran, Libya, China, North Korea and Iraq. [FT]

Excerpted from.
www.libya1.com...


Oh and BTW...how come everyone has forgotten about the following?...

May 22, 2004

VIENNA – The United States has informed an international agency that oversees nuclear materials that it intends to move hundreds of tons of uranium from a sealed repository south of Baghdad to a more secure location outside Iraq, Western diplomats close to the agency say.

However, the International Atomic Energy Agency has taken the position that the uranium is Iraqi property and the agency "cannot give them permission to remove it," a diplomat said.

Excerpted from.
www.signonsandiego.com...

Why in the world did Saddam have these 500 tons of uranium which would be enriched to make nuclear bombs?... Supposedly all the wmd materials were to be destroyed, yet this is among some of what was found in Iraq...

Most people seem to have long term memory problems...

Let's not forget this. Saddam was supposed to get rid of all material, parts and documentation dealing with wmd...yet he didn't...why?...

(CNN) -- The CIA has in its hands the critical parts of a key piece of Iraqi nuclear technology -- parts needed to develop a bomb program -- that were dug up in a back yard in Baghdad, CNN has learned.

The parts, with accompanying plans, were unearthed by Iraqi scientist Mahdi Obeidi who had hidden them under a rose bush in his garden 12 years ago under orders from Qusay Hussein and Saddam Hussein's then son-in-law, Hussein Kamel.

Excerpted from.
www.cnn.com...

So...there were the 500 tons of uranium which could be enriched if the Iraqis had the centrifuges for it...and Saddam's son ordered an Iraqi scientist to bury documents and centrifuge parts in his backyard, among some of the other documents that were found which dealt with WMD programs...can anyone add these up?.... humm....

I have presented in the past other links showing what the intelligence was saying from other countries, including France, Germany, Russia, Australia and some others.

Here are some new links i have found.

What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002

Excerpted from.
www.studentstopwar.org.uk...

There are several quotes in the above link which shows what many of the people that now claim that the president was lying were saying before the war.

Originally posted by Siroos
Putin was against the war in Iraq - why would he say something like that to the U.S. when he was trying all he could to prevent the war?

Oh boy... that is a good question... My anwser is that Russia is actually one of the countries which provided wmd and other banned military technology and intelligence to Iraq, while at the same time making it a trap so that the US would attack Iraq and they could denounce the US to the world...

Putin says Iraq planned US attack

Russian President Vladimir Putin says that after the 9/11 attacks Moscow warned Washington that Saddam Hussein was planning attacks on the US.
He said Russia's secret service had information on more than one occasion that Iraq was preparing acts of terror in the US and its facilities worldwide.

Excerpted from.
news.bbc.co.uk...

Originally posted by Siroos
Most of those Iraqis died as a result of the U.S. policies in Iraq. It was the U.S. who supported Saddam and armed him:

Wrong.... the sanctions were set by the UN and the US. President Clinton agreed to keep the sanctions in place in Iraq even after reports were demonstrating that there were many innocents dying because of the sanctions....

BTW, the countries that armed Saddam mostly with the wmd and chemical weapons were Russia and other nations.


Let's see what a former Russian official has to say about the matter..

"As a former Romanian spy chief who used to take orders from the Soviet KGB, it is perfectly obvious to me that Russia is behind the evanescence of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. After all, Russia helped Saddam get his hands on them in the first place,"
Ion Mihai Pacepa

Excerpted from.
washingtontimes.com...

Here is a link with a bit of the story behind one of Russia's highest raking intelligence officer to have defected to the west Lt. Gen. Ion Mihai Pacepa.

66.216.126.164...

Originally posted by Siroos
- It was the CIA which assisted in the coup which brought the baath fascists to power in Iraq.

I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about...the Baathist party is an Arab Socialist party...not fascist... the Baathist party came to power by itself...not with any help from the US...

Baath Party, formally the Baath Arab Socialist Party: Political party and movement influential among Arab communities in the Middle East, especially in Syria and Iraq. The Baath Party was from the beginning a secular Arab nationalist party. Socialism (not Marxism) was quickly adopted as the party’s economic dogma: “Unity [Arab], Freedom [from colonialism], and Socialism” are still the watchwords. From its earliest development, the motivation behind Baathist political thought and its leading supporters was the need to produce a means of reasserting the Arab spirit in the face of foreign domination.

Excerpted from.
www.damascus-online.com...

BTW it was the president of Iraq Al-Bakr who in 1969 gave the vice presidency to Saddam...not the CIA...later on Saddam used his power to take control over Iraq, murdering those of the iraqi cabinet he thought were against him....

November 1969 President al-Bakr, Saddam's kinsman, appoints Saddam Deputy Chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council (RCC) and Vice-President. He controls the internal security and intelligence organs and is the driving force behind the regime.

Excerpted from.
www.iraqfoundation.org...

Originally posted by Siroos
- The U.S. then supported Saddam and sold him weapons of all sorts.

See above....

Originally posted by Siroos
- The U.S. supported Saddam Hussein in the war with Iran and provided him with military, strategic and logistic intelligence - Later in the war the U.S. was providing BOTH Iran and Iraq with intelligence!!! And yet later in the war the U.S. was selling weapons to Iraq, while at the same time secretely selling weapons to Iran, and using the money it got to pay for the Contras in Nicaragua!!! Talk about having double standard and talk about being rotten! Can you imagine how many Iraqis and Iranians have been killed because of these dirty tricks and games!! And now you want the world to believe that the U.S. is concerned about the welfare of the pfeople of the Middle East..... HA!!! Yeah right!

Many countries have done things like this, yet they supposedly also send help to other countries... have you ever looked into France and Germany's hand in what was happening in Sudan?

Do you have any idea what french troops have been doing in the ivory coast, shooting people who were unarmed and protesting the presence of the french?...

Originally posted by Siroos
- It was the U.S. which gave Saddam the green light to invade Kuwait.

Where is your evidence to back what you said above?

Originally posted by Siroos
- It was the U.S. who told the Iraqi Shia and Kurdish populations to rise against Saddam and that they had nothing to fear because the U.S. would stand behind them and protect them!

- And it was the U.S. who stood by and didn't move a finger as the Shias and Kurds rose against Saddam and he massacred them in the hundreds of thousands!!!

By that time much of the world was proclaiming, as it is doing now, that the US was in Iraq to occupy it, make it a colony and keep the oil.... We were also having casualties from insurgent attacks, althou not as high as we are having now. The president decided it was better to leave Iraq to keep the world happy...yet.. where were the UN and the rest of the world's troops when Saddam decided to kill those of his people who rose against him?.....

Originally posted by Siroos
There is actually a movement in Europe calling for the world to unite and disarm the U.S. -- If things continue the way they are, I think that might be a good solution! But we will need a devastating world war instigated by the U.S. before the world will be able to accomplish something of the sort. But the best solution would be that the U.S. government stops doing what it is doing while there is still time, and steps aside, allowing a lawful, peaceful, and decent and really democratic government to take its place, which will distance itself from imperialism, bullying and war.mongering, and thus keep its armed forces intact, but for GOOD purposes.

Yes, i do know that the communists are once again trying to disarm the US. i have known this for a while, thank you for at least trying to make a point i ahve been trying to make in these forums...

BTW...what in the world are you talking about the US government stepping aside to let a really democratic government take it's place?.... you are obviously deluded...the US government is a truly democratic government elected by the people despite all the wild rethoric that many liberals keep shouting about...

Originally posted by Siroos
Liberals are the ones who do care for the U.S.! They care for the people of the U.S. not only for the filthy rich elite of corrupt and morally corrupt crooks! Look at Clinton's administration -
............... The Liberals must disarm the elite of crooks, then maybe there is no need to disarm the U.S. military.

I don't see exactly how legalizing marijuana is "caring for the US"...many if not most liberals want the legalization of marijuana, among some of the other idiotic things they want, yet that would not help the US at all....it would merely make the US a country of potheads...and imo we have more than enough already.

Because of Clinton we had security breaches because he cut the budget of all the intelligence agencies... China stole, and bought military secrets from Clinton by giving donations to his campaing, which is in part the reason why there was an intelligence failure and why 9/11 happened.

What the liberals should do is keep smoking their marijuana....perhaps in their own self deluded hallucinations from smoking pot they would think the US has already been disarmed...

Originally posted by Siroos
The distaste you and many Americans have for liberals, is a phenomenon resembling the distaste one would have for liberals in societies where segregation, apartheid and other injustices exist. It is the distaste of the ignorants and arrogants. It's really a distaste for humanity, and a celebration of covert fascism.

First of all, you should notice that I was playing the same generalization games that Logansrun was playing....

He was generalizing proclaiming that all Republicans are all the same....

Here is what he said...

quote: Originally posted by LogansRun

Ah yes, the conservative approach. There is nothing wrong here. Everything is fine, trust us.... Evil liberal media has only been focusing on what is wrong. Who cares about human rights violations, the lack of WMD, the thousands killed...we are spreading democracy!!

Hence I made the same thing generalizing what many liberals have said in the past...and proclaiming that you are all the same... i was making a point by generalizing, just like many responding to this post and others do...

So, keep your ignorant insults to yourself.


[edit on 5-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Siroos

The difference between your claim and my claim, is that I have sources to back up my claim with.
...........

when have you backed up your claims?....you have presented not even one link, and if you do, make it something reliable please...

Are we really going back to debateing the hyped up WMD claim?
If we are then its going to get messy and confusing...

Originally posted by Muaddib
Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that

I must borrow Muaddib's quoation from Jacques Chirac and use it next time I want to say something useless, nondescript and non-committal.

Fencesitters'R'Us in pre-Gulf War 2 France.

Far outweighing the quality of any so called "evidences" is the real evidence that the invasion was orchestrated with criminal intent around false and fabricated non-evidences with no real regard for validity or truth; the fraud has been spun out ever since. But at least the applause has died down to the point where even the ovine-resembling homo sapiens cerebra are framing questions around why they have been lied to and why so much needless death has been wrought on bystanders.

useless?....it shows what the French were thinking, right from Chirac's mouth... which in part the other member was arguing that no other countries except the US and the UK were saying that saddam had wmd... i proved him/her wrong....

Nice try Masked...and please don't mention anything about useless talk, when you regurgitate mere flowery rhetoric all the time...


[edit on 5-5-2005 by Muaddib]

[edit on 5-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
useless?....it shows what the French were thinking, right from Chirac's mouth... which in part the other member was arguing that no other countries except the US and the UK were saying that saddam had wmd... i proved him/her wrong....

Yes, useless.

Chirac said nothing at all in the sentence that I quoted from above.

But what may possibly lead you to think from any evidences, today, or in the past four years, that perhaps you ought to think that maybe there is a suggestion that sometimes you should evaluate the evidence that maybe something ought to be considered about what you just said as if it had meaning about something possibly connected with the view that there may have been consideration by the French that maybe there was a time when perhaps there were certain evidences that possibly might make us think that maybe there ought to be more thought given at some time in the perhaps not too distant future to getting off this fence, at some time? Perhaps? Without overcommitting ourselves, of course.






[edit on 5-5-2005 by MaskedAvatar]

i presented evidence Masked....what are you presenting?.... mere rethoric trying to make no point....

i wonder what is really useless here...

[edit on 5-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Meahwhile, US taxpayers continue to fund PBS and NPR. If the bent on those brodacasts had become less heavily leftist biased, then maybe i could assign some merit to claims of free speech oppression.

Have they let tim robbins out of the gulag yet?