NEWS: Oldest Known New Testament Manuscript: Number of the Beast is 616

Bravo Akilles, the 1 shape with a v is symbolic of Babylonian number writing.

However if each place was represented by a 1 and v then that would indicate a 111, which would be 71. A single 6 would require 6 such symbols for each representation. A 3 would only require the marking combination of a 1 and v, 3 times.

Curious....

Interesting. I'm just gonna sit and wait until the new threads pop up about how 6 + 1 + 6 = something of relevance.

Those threads are always good fun =]

-wD

The article at the front of this thread is fairly misleading. It says that this is the "oldest manuscript of the new testament" that has just been found. Actually, many papyrii predate the find in the article. this is the oldest so far of a particular text, i.e. the Apocalypse of John.

My Nestle Aland 27th ed. shows 616 as a variant reading in Codex C, a 4th century manuscript housed in the biblioteche nacionale in Paris. The footnote also indicates that Irenaeus, the 3rd cent. bishop, mentions that some copies of "revelations" have 616.

So this was not exactly news. . . .

And anyway, many of the ancient eastern churches had pretty serious reservations about the apocalypse of John, which they claimed was actually not written by him. They preferred the Apocalypse of Peter, which in its own turn was never accepted by the western (catholic) churches.

As far as the idea that the author of Revelation also wrote "John," Word studies show a different style, with a much more "semitized" Greek, that seems as if the author was thinking in a semitic language, and then creating a literal translation into greek. The Greek is also frought with linguistic errors, which is not the case for the Gospel and first letter of John.

So in some ways this whole thing is a pretty old debate, merely backing up what Irenaeus had said a millenium and a half ago.

[edit on 3-5-2005 by dr_strangecraft]

Originally posted by Dasher
...it would be prudent at this point to bring up the fact that john was in a roman prison at the time and nero was known to be extremely vicious. further, in those days, it was common to put a name in code by adding the letter/numbers together.

to get a glimpse of who nero was, let me quote from "Civilization - Past and Present" Fourth edition, by, Scott/Foresman;
pg 143 -
"We are now indebted to Tacitus for his account of how Nero made the Christians in the capital the scapegoats for the great fire: Mockery was added to the Christians' deaths. They were covered with animal skins and torn to pieces by dogs, many were crucified or burned, and some were set afire at nightfall to serve for illumination. For the spectacle Nero offered his gardens, and he presented horse races in addition. In the dress of a charioteer he himself stood up in his sulky. Hence the victims aroused compassion, for it was not for the public good but for one man's savagery that they were being destroyed."

[2nd edit] - since 666/616 = nero's name/title in their respective languages (greek and hebrew), it is further evidence that those who were in those days knew and were expected to know (with a bit of thinking) who john was speaking of.

An excellent historically correct [for that time period] response Dasher.
Back in early 2004, a similar topic came up:
How To Add The Number Of The Beast, A Mystery Revealed

I made a couple comments in it basically describing the same reasoning but in a different way:

Biblical literalist, an amazing bunch of folks.
No consideration for for literary context or even the historical context given....strange.

The books of Daniel and Revelations are considered Apocalyptic texts, written during a period in history when the writers were under heavy scrutiny, harrassment, subjugation, and quite literally, were being put to death for being a Christian or even remotely connected to it.

Literalists tend to view, read, and interpret Revelations from a "Futurist Approach," implying that Revelations is a book of prophecies dealing with the end of the world.

The other 'academic' approach is to view, read, understand, and interpret the book of Revelations, better known as the "Preterist Approach". This view holds that Revelations is a book of prophecies that deal primarily with the period in which Revelations was written; that would be about 95+/- CE.

The audience to have recieved Revelations would have been those persecuted Christians and the books purpose would have been to offer encouragement during this time of persecution. The symbols and images would have been used so that the persecutors, the Romans, would or could not fully understand the communications that were transpiring between those Christians that were under persecution and being persecuted.

As such, to make this short, I found it very, very interesting that in Aramaic, the letters for Nero Caesar (a Roman emperor and the contested first to really and seriously persecute Christians) add up to 666.

666 = 616 = Nero




seekerof

[edit on 3-5-2005 by Seekerof]

*looks around, scratches head, informs satanic friends of the tragedy*

I'm really lost for words on this matter. Don't quite know what to make of it, but, damn, I just lost a little bit of myself.

Oh poor uncle allister...who's going to tell him the news?

666 actually has nothing to do with the end of times or the devil or anything like that .. it was the number of the roman emperor around the time of the apostles who persecuted and crucifie thousands of christians... i cant recall his name, may have been nero but not 100% on that 1.. any one help out ?

sorry, just read the above posts. ignore

could be the 6 month of the 16 day.it could be the meaning of 616 .does this mean people will go out and fulfill the end days just to say they where right.i have felt along time that these readers of faith have a hidden agenda to destory mankind.just to say they where right.or an act of power over us with a spooky story.fear is a great tool of control.i have read alot about the book of the dead. might be where many ideas have come from.many real storys of female accounts have been removed from history.make me wonder why so many people give up there free will to see something thats at the end of a book that makes no sense.

[edit on 4-5-2005 by flukemol]

Originally posted by edsinger

The Number 7 is 'perfect'

therfore 6 is less than perfect


777 being the perfect 'trinity'

666 being the unholy thrice.

[edit on 3-5-2005 by edsinger]

That is incorrect. 6 is a 'perfect' number (in fact, the smallest such number), because the definition of a 'perfect' number is one whose factors add up to itself (i.e. 6 = 1*2*3 = 1+2+3).

Therefore, it would actually be 666 that is the perfect 'trinity'.

Cat Megex—

Your mistake was to apply to one field of study --theology-- the rules borrowed from a field that bears no relation to that one --mathematics. On June 5 and June 6 (6-6-06) many priests were interviewed on TV news programs and asked about the fear many people felt as the day of the three sixes approached. (Some women who were pregnant were afraid that their child would be born on that day because there was a rumor going around that it was the day the Antichrist would be born.)

One of the priests explained that in the Bible the number seven stands for perfection, and so the number six, since it comes just before it, stands for imperfection, and the triple six, logically enough, for the utmost imperfection. Another priest’s comments corroborated what’s been said here in the present thread --that gematria indicates that in ancient Hebrew “Nero Caesar” adds up to 666-- and he also said that the Apostle John was being cautious when he used the number instead of the name of the emperor, because otherwise he would’ve gotten in trouble. It was a symbol only Christians would understand.
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According to a theology professor in Birmingham, England, the number 666 was indeed a mistranslation of the actual value, documented subsequently as 616.

The beast referred to by the number 616, was however not the Emperor Nero. 616 actually refers to the Emperor Caligula, whose reign was certainly the nadir of the Roman Empire. So, no 666, no devil as such, just another criminally insane human.

Here is the link to a recent news report, which includes a photo of part of the parchment in question:

worldnetdaily.com...

Some months ago Karen Downing, a member of Dr. Michael Salla, Ph.D.'s Yahoo Group, "prepare4contact", came up with this wonderful comment: that according to her favorite source the U.S. Gov't has a time machine (cp. Philadelphia Project) that it's been using in order to go back in time and plant here and there fake manuscripts that we're now finding. I'm guessing that there may be the following reason for this, assuming it's true: they do it for the mere fun of it, just to see what happens, and to enjoy the ensuing confusion. Or maybe it's all part of a serious research project on the ways to change history by going back and forth between the past and the present.

(Off_The_Street, your usual mocking comments are most welcome, as well as the latest inside info on the company whose name rhymes with "going". I enjoyed the story about your abduction at iwasabducted.com, and wonder why it seems to have been deleted.)
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[edit on 8-6-2006 by Macrento]