NEWS: Oldest Known New Testament Manuscript: Number of the Beast is 616

Perhaps "616" is just "666" in the metric system

previously unintelligible manuscripts discovered in historic dumps outside Oxyrhynchus in Egypt. Now a team of expert classicists, using new photographic techniques, are finally deciphering the original writing.

Previously Unintelligible Manuscripts? Photographic Techniques?

I'll stick with 666.... reason= 1'st the manuscripts where indecipherable (which means this old broken up manuscript probably has plenty of elements missing) 2nd of all any photographic procedure could come up with any number.

People mostly believe in what they see and told, such as a face in the clouds


And who knows, this may be some kind of agenda to discredit the bible!

[edit on 3-5-2005 by XPhiles]

Excuse me but the book of revelations was not widely accepted by the Catholic church when first was asked to be added to the holy scriptures because the author was never prove to be in fact John.

The writing style was not the same, but more to match one of Constantino's appointees to compile the bible, Eusebius.

So that fact to me makes the Revelations book a very controversial book to believe.

Thats pretty impressive.

Maybe this will make people realize that a text can go thru lots of 'error adding' processes. ANd considering that these are extemely old texts, and that there are other old texts that they contradict with, the errors can be added rapidly. Since there isn't anything, as far as I understand it, from the 1st, or even early 2nd century, one simply cannot assume that they are even starting with an error free text.

This should also make it clear that, the biblical cannon could've easily gone another way, with different books being considered authentic. Not to slam the current arrangement, but its obviously one of a few possibilities. People had to critically examine the texts, even back then, to determine which were authentic and which were forgeries.

a monk was once visiting a monastry a few towns away and was being given a guided tour by the abbot. in one room he saw several monks sitting at desks copying manuscripts. he went over to see what they were working on and noticed that they were not copying from the original manuscript but from other copies that had been made.

he questioned the abbot about this and pointed out that if this process of copying from copies were common practice then it was very easy for a mistake to be made along the way and the mistake carried on through each copy made from then on. the abbot agreed and said he would go and find the original manuscript.

hours went by and still the abbot had not returned so the monk went to look for him. he found him in a dark room filled with old manuscripts, curled up on the floor and crying hysterically whilst clutching the original manuscript. the monk asked the abbot what on earth was the matter that he should be in such a state. the abbot thrust the original manuscript towards him and shouted "someone made a mistake and missed an 'R' out - it was supposed to say celibRate".

Scary numerology...

In 2002 the VLA Radio telescope in New Mexico picked up a series of radio pulses that cycled five times (425 minutes).

"A mystery object near the centre of our galaxy is sending out powerful pulses of radio waves. It is unlike any known source.
A team of astronomers led by Scott Hyman of Sweet Briar College, Virginia, US, detected the mysterious source using the Very Large Array radio telescope in New Mexico.
The pulses are coming from a spot just to one side of the galactic centre. Each pulse lasts about 10 minutes, and they repeat regularly every 77 minutes. If, as the researchers think, the source is near the centre of the Milky Way, it would be one of the most powerful emitters in the galaxy. The shape and timing of the pulses rules out most known sources, such as radio pulsars."

425/60 (minutes) = 7.08 hours
.08 x 77 (minutes per cycle) = 616

John Titor's Cat.

616 is an area code in Detroit which leads me to believe that Detroit is the mark of the beast. This is absurd.

Well simulacra perhaps the Detroit should be now very afraid because they now have the mark of the beast, who knows somebody will come out with a prophecy that it will be born in Detroit

Also anybody with the numbers in the social security, mail box number, Id, driver cards, credit card, you name it the possibilities are inmense.

Six-hundred
Threescore
&
Six


How can Threescore be misunderstood to be uno?


The Number 7 is 'perfect'

therfore 6 is less than perfect


777 being the perfect 'trinity'

666 being the unholy thrice.



Nope - I still think it is 666, as originally thought.


PS plus these manuscripts are from the Eygyptian Gnostic texts are they not?

You know the same ones that claim you can only be saved by your level of knowledge of 'God', not the Grace of your Creator as he consistently taught you BEFORE Revelations?

[edit on 3-5-2005 by edsinger]

This has been known for a long time

The number 666 is commonly regarded as an example of gematria, an ancient numbers game in which each letter of the alphabet was assigned a numerical value. Any name could be encoded in a number representing the total of the letters in the name. John makes it clear that 666 is man's number, or "the number of a person". The problem is that with a bit of ingenuity many prominent names in every generation can be made to add up to 666. One commentator wrote that such identifications "lead to nothing just because they lead to everything" (Hendriksen). The numbers work quite well, for example, with the name Adolf Hitler.

When the Latin form of the name is transliterated directly into Hebrew, the result is 616, and sure enough, in the western Roman Empire where Latin was dominant, there were manuscripts in which the number was recorded as 616 (Irenaeus noticed this already in the late second century in his Against Heresies 5.30).

Trivial, perhaps, but 6+1+6 also equals 13, the devils number, Judas' number, etc etc

i didn't know Detroit had an area code 616. I know our main ones are 586, 313,248,517,810

Hmm, I'll have to see what area has that maybe towards grand rapids?

Maybe this will
...finally...

Originally posted by Nygdan
make people realize that a text can go thru lots of 'error adding' processes.

very good point there Nygdan! It's what I always say when people tell me the bible is the word of God. I can't believe they don't see it was written by men (not even by witnesses) who wrote it down by hearsaying, or let's call it "oral tradition", after some centuries (new testament) or millenia (old one) the things happened. After all, only a very few people were literate at this times, so they were free to write what they want, because nobody could control them. Not to mention all the copies (as justyc pointed out in his/her nice little story) and, after all, the translations from dead languages in today's. Those centuries in the "dark ages", who knows what they did put in the holy book to justify their doings then? Same about the Q'ran and a lot of other holy books. I would like people to see those books as stories which can teach you a lot, but not taking them word by word, for it's man made!

One of the biggest problems in the near future will be saving our knowledge. Scientists already speak about the 20th century as the lost one (in the future), because a lot of data will be lost for those who will come after us. Why? Because of copying too much and because of too short living media. Even our books (first of all paperbacks) will not survive for long, because there's too much acids in the paper. Not to speak of CD's which have an estimated lifetime of 15 to 20 years (some of mine only live for 0.5 years).

What I want to say is: loss of (original) data because of man made mistakes, errors, faults or bad intentions and because of aging material is not only a today's problem, but is one ever since. All true believers should consider this (which of course doesn't mean everything is wrong). In the beginning, there may have been the word. But it was not written.

But I have a question...

Why would the Beast need a number? And why 666? Aren't they all equally arbitrary?

Does anyone think that maybe the numerologists had something to do with the inclusion of numbers in the bible? Has anyone been able to provide any proof in conclusion that any one number can have any effect on anything in the real world? No. Only in our minds...

I'm a little superstitious, but only in a self entertaining way. I don't really believe that my love for the number 777 is going to have any effect on me, those around me, or on the world at large. It's just an affinity that I chose to have one day.

Numerology is for entertainment purposes only. Astrology is for entertainment purposes only. Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore are for entertainment purposes only. All are ineffectual, arbitrary systems which people either choose to, or choose not to subscribe to.

God needs no number, neither does 'the Beast'. Whoever that is.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
When the Latin form of the name is transliterated directly into Hebrew, the result is 616, and sure enough, in the western Roman Empire where Latin was dominant, there were manuscripts in which the number was recorded as 616

Does that mean the actual "name" was known at some point and changed into code? Would that make it more likely it was someone contemporary that could get a little pissed about a bad write up? Or a country maybe?

DeltaChaos: So we got quite an entertained guy out there? Good to hear that. And in a rational point of view, you're absolutely right. But rationality is not what people searching for in here.
Ah, before I forget: numerology is somehow connected with Kabbala (the jewish mystic art of reading numbers and stuff) and therefore is, I guess, also connected to the bible.

[edit on 3-5-2005 by new_falcon_XXI]

in the scripture, it is implied that "he who is wise" should be able to know who the "beast" is and do so from this information (666/616). it should logically follow then that not only was "the beast" one who is a contemporary to the writer/readers, but also that there is an obvious necessity for the information passed to be coded. it would be prudent at this point to bring up the fact that john was in a roman prison at the time and nero was known to be extremely vicious. further, in those days, it was common to put a name in code by adding the letter/numbers together.

to get a glimpse of who nero was, let me quote from "Civilization - Past and Present" Fourth edition, by, Scott/Foresman;
pg 143 -
"We are now indebted to Tacitus for his account of how Nero made the Christians in the capital the scapegoats for the great fire: Mockery was added to the Christians' deaths. They were covered with animal skins and torn to pieces by dogs, many were crucified or burned, and some were set afire at nightfall to serve for illumination. For the spectacle Nero offered his gardens, and he presented horse races in addition. In the dress of a charioteer he himself stood up in his sulky. Hence the victims aroused compassion, for it was not for the public good but for one man's savagery that they were being destroyed."

to twist The Revelation to fit evangelic, dispensational eschatology is seriously erred.
daved

[edit] - and to imply that it is not based on reason is to remain ignorant of history, eastern culture and the bible. to each his own i suppose.

[2nd edit] - since 666/616 = nero's name/title in their respective languages (greek and hebrew), it is further evidence that those who were in those days knew and were expected to know (with a bit of thinking) who john was speaking of.

[edit on 5/3/2005 by Dasher]

[edit on 5/3/2005 by Dasher]

Originally posted by new_falcon_XXI
But rationality is not what people searching for in here.

Well, THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE SEARCHING FOR!!!

Why in the hell must we continue to scare ourselves by and distract ourselves from the very world that we have no choice but to live in.

Look, I'm all for God and all that, but why must people continue to be believeing in this 2000 year old drivel about some seven seals and seven trumpets and four horsemen or whatever.

Like there was actually some kind of metaphor there that, if deciphered, would lead to some kind of answer. And these metaphors are obviously false allegory because if they weren't, we wouldn't still be searching for these answers, WE'D HAVE THEM!!!

I'm so sick of the enchanted, deluded, voluntarily illusioned people in this world that prevent the rest of us from making any progress.

Can I just say down with religion and all those who are too self-important to take a realistic look at what they believe, and not fear any repercussion for my view? Can I? PLEASE?!!!

The Mark of the Beast was written as the same mark, three times.

It was a character that looked like a 1, combined with an upside down v...

This pre-dates any one claiming to have written the Bible by some thousands of years... So why did they take the number of the Beast from Babylonian Mystery Religion?

And why did they associate the three 1s, with the number 6? Didn't Babylonians use 60?

Think of 616 this way, the first 6 stands not for 6 x 10x10 (ie. not 600). Using the Babylonian Base 60, the Six means 6 units of the Babylonian Base 60 system.

6x100, 6X10, and 6x0 were their placeholders. So multiply 600 x 6, 60 x 1, and add 6 (because 6x0 means it is 6 individual units).

So now WE ALL KNOW why the Triple Mark was ASSOCIATED wrongly with the Number 6! The CODE is 60!

Funny, but nobody ever takes into account that 666 could be a babylonian number or a sexagesmal number.

Ancient babylonians sort of counted like the way we count time on a clock or base 60.
Example: 59 is 59 but 60 is 1.00
so 119 is 1.59 and 120 is 2.00 and so forth

666 = 6x60x60 + 6x60 + 6 = 21966
616 = 6x60x60 + 1x60 + 6 = 21666
So what does that number mean? Its more than likely an Equidistant Letter Skip sequence used in bible coding. If you're into that sort of thing.


or,

You may need to convert 666 to sexagesmal which would be 11.06
If you use the 616 it would be 10.16
Which simply looks like something referring to a chapter and verse. Not useful for computer bible coding.


Let he hath knowledge and wisdom calculate the number of the beast.

Put it this way, the original bible is old and old enough to be encoded with the advanced mathematics of the day which belonged to the babylonians.
Gematria only acknowledges there is a pattern with the Bible text but it isn't a very sophisticated way to deal with the encryption. And any other numerological method such as counting the number of letters used in the english language version is purely bogus. People fit what they want to fit and bend the rules for their particular numbering system.