European UCAV packen Nukes!?

The Dassault Neuron is a French delta multirole UCAV demonstrator currently under development by Dassault Aviation, and its expected first flight is 2009, and if all goes well it will enter service in 2012.

Dassault Neuron

above link
The aircraft may have unmanned air-to-air and bombing capabilities with the eventual ability to launch nuclear warheads. It is anticipated that it will be the first aircraft to integrate a software based stealth and survival technology with an advanced stealth airframe design.

Will Europe's first UCAV be Nuclear capable?

first, thanks for the info..i was not aware of this UCAV program.

to say this is the first european UCAV programm is not right ( except french equals european...) , just take a look at the "TAIFUN" ( german for typhoon) project, it's a UCAV and has already accomplished it's maiden flight.

The maiden flight of the system was successfully completed in December 2002. The Taifun system is scheduled to enter service with the German Army in 2006. 13 systems with more than 936 air vehicles will be delivered by 2011.

references :
www.army-technology.com...
www.rheinmetall-detec.de...

whether this UCAV is capable of using nukes or not is no question in my opinion, any UCAV can drop some nukes...it's not much different from dropping a conventional weapon, especially for a unmanned "drone".
who cares if the drone comes back or not if you have dropped a few nukes

I like the look of it, looks very deadly. Much better lines then any of the UCAV's I've seen the USAF testing. Nuke Capable huh. Doesn't surprise me, them french really like thier Fission.

[edit on 28-4-2005 by sardion2000]

Hannah - While yes...nearly any bomber could pack a nuclear punch, nations dont do it because it looks bad, I'm wondering if they are seriously looking into having this be nuclear or not.

Also, I wasn't aware of the TAIFUN, not suprises considering how many various types of Unmanned aircraft are being built.

However it (Taifun) appears to need rockets to get off the ground and can only carry a single munition, and the munition is only 44 lbs. which is only enough to take on a armored vehicle...and not a building. I would classify it as a UCAV...but borderline.

What intreged me was not only nuclear, but that it could handle both Air-to-Air, as well as Air-to-Ground, I dont believe any other unmanned aircraft can do this, nor have I seen any plans for the USAF to have a Unmanned Fighter/Bomber.

Originally posted by sardion2000
I like the look of it, looks very deadly. Much better lines then any of the UCAV's I've seen the USAF testing.

I agree, it has a killer look.

As much as I like the USAF's X-45C & X-47B.....the Neuron just has the "Black Project" look, to it.



[edit on 28-4-2005 by Murcielago]

Originally posted by Murcielago
Hannah - While yes...nearly any bomber could pack a nuclear punch, nations dont do it because it looks bad, I'm wondering if they are seriously looking into having this be nuclear or not.

Also, I wasn't aware of the TAIFUN, not suprises considering how many various types of Unmanned aircraft are being built.

However it (Taifun) appears to need rockets to get off the ground and can only carry a single munition, and the munition is only 44 lbs. which is only enough to take on a armored vehicle...and not a building. I would classify it as a UCAV...but borderline.

What intreged me was not only nuclear, but that it could handle both Air-to-Air, as well as Air-to-Ground, I dont believe any other unmanned aircraft can do this, nor have I seen any plans for the USAF to have a Unmanned Fighter/Bomber.

yes the taifun needs rockets, the payload is relativly small, but it's still better than wasting human lifes to fight a war, at least in my opinion. imagine 900+ crafts of this type launching a "conventional" attack...i don't want to be near of this attack.

if the french UCAV is capable of attacking both air and ground targets is just a matter of sensory and weapon equipment, and of course the necessary software. french air-to-air missiles are quite "advanced" and whether you can target a aircraft is just a matter of :

a. having the weapon "on board"
b. being capable of targeting your target -> "on board" radar, awacs etc. all modern airforces have this capability, you need the necessary hardware (FCS, radar, IR, etc. ) and the software to process the data.

whether it ( the french UCAV ) looks "good" or not is discussible, the US have their b-52, b-1, b-2 and i guess a still classified successor of the b-2, to launch a massive nuclear strike on any country on this planet, it's only logical that other countries do the same, and we (EU and US) are still allies, despite what some posts/threads on this board want to imply.

in my opinion it's more likely to see the french and german UCAV's fly in formation with b-2 + US UCAVS than seeing them fighting each other.

Neuron, Ahhh, my favorite UCAV project (just because of the looks really).

every industrial country must be developing their own type of UAV these days

If the UCAV was big enough, it should not be a problem to put a couple of missiles on board and integration its systmes with AWAC's.

Originally posted by Hannah


whether it ( the french UCAV ) looks "good" or not is discussible, the US have their b-52, b-1, b-2 and i guess a still classified successor of the b-2, to launch a massive nuclear strike on any country on this planet, it's only logical that other countries do the same, and we (EU and US) are still allies, despite what some posts/threads on this board want to imply.

in my opinion it's more likely to see the french and german UCAV's fly in formation with b-2 + US UCAVS than seeing them fighting each other.

I doub they'd be fighting each other but I definitley don't think they'd be flying together for the same missions/objectives..
I don't see the french/germans helping the US in any scenario unless its backed by a UN mandate.. Thats for sure..

And as for the taifun.. its propeller driven! ..
ahem .. sorry..
Good plane all in all except for stealth features..

[edit on 29-4-2005 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Daedalus3

And as for the taifun.. its propeller driven!

..
ahem .. sorry..

Good plane all in all except for stealth features..

[edit on 29-4-2005 by Daedalus3]

yes, the TAIFUN has a propeller engine, but this is not necessary a disadvantage. since the TAIFUN was designed to stay airborne over the battlefield for a longer time, it's clear that the most fuel-efficient propulsion system is used. if it would be jet-powered it could definitly not stay up to 4 hours airborne.

to the "stealth" features, just read the rheinmetall article...

The relatively small air vehicle - wing span 2.3 m, length 2.1 m, height 1.1 m - is built with multi-spectral stealth material. Low observability gives the possibility to penetrate far into the enemy territory without being detected or destroyed.

and it was never designed to be a remote-controlled B-2

Its funny, that Euro design is VERY simular to the X47 by Northrop Grumman

This pic is a model btw.


Amazingly simular design from the Euro's.......Again....

skippytjc, your point? It's how the Aviation Industry works isn't it? Everyone plays follow the leader(s) (in this case and time period it's the USA)

Imitation is the best form of flattery.

Originally posted by sardion2000
skippytjc, your point? It's how the Aviation Industry works isn't it? Everyone plays follow the leader(s) (in this case and time period it's the USA)

Imitation is the best form of flattery.

You knowwhat? I really didnt have a point!!

Hey.. when that new movie called 'Stealth' due?..
Its about some jets which get all sentient and all I've heard..
Looking forward to it..

I don't see the french/germans helping the US in any scenario unless its backed by a UN mandate.. Thats for sure..

Why the French need UCAVs and expensive weapon systems is beyond me when is the last time they fought in a war? And they will probably surrender before they use any of their weapons anyway so...

Just wanted to point out a few things: First, yeah, the EU realy care about their nuclear-strike capability, hence there's not many utilisations foreshadowed, and even none at all... And yeah, the froggies just LOVE atom, don't ask me why...

Second, the Neuron is not French-German, but French-Swedish, as its a merge of the Dassault's prototype and the Saab's one. They merged the tech to make this UAV. (should find something on the 'net somewhere to refer to, I read this in the latest IDA newspaper...)


By the way, seen that the two US UCAV from boeing did their first formation flight last autumn, anyone got something about this?

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Hey.. when that new movie called 'Stealth' due?..
Its about some jets which get all sentient and all I've heard..
Looking forward to it..

As am I

It hits theaters in 3 months...7/29/05

Stealth

And as for the taifun.. its propeller driven!

So is the Predator B and it can stay aloft for over a day packen 10 Hellfire II missiles...Not sure where you were going with that one?

A Aircrafts propulsion method is chosen by its missions, and not whatever is the newest.

What is now known as Neuron was originaly french demonstrator called Dassault Grand Duc. It was planned as final UCAV demonstrator after experimental models Petit Duc (AVE) and Moyen Duc. However, in late 2004 the direction of the effort changed somewhat. The French DGA defense procurement agency initiated a government effort to fly a UCAV demonstrator by 2008 and stated that a contract would be awarded to Dassault in early 2004.




Neuron, which the French Government has supported with a 300 million euro investment (shared between Dassault Aviation and EADS), is not yet the European UCAV, but a demonstrator of the validity of the UCAV concept. Greece (Hellenic Aerospace Industries) and Sweden (SAAB) have signed agreements for participation in this programme, which is led by Dassault in partnership with EADS. Belgium (Sabca), Spain (Casa/EADS); Italy (Alenia and Finmeccanica) and Switzerland (Ruag) have also expressed an interest in becoming involved. Russia could also eventually indirectly participate through an agreement signed on 6 October 2003 by the French company SNECMA and the Russian company Rosoboronexport on "the possibilities of collaborating on propulsion systems for a new generation of combat aircraft and unmanned combat air vehicles (UCAV)"

The French procurement office (DGA), the order-giver for this demonstrator, describes its purpose as being "to demonstrate Europe's capacity to build and fly a discreet unmanned platform remote-controlled from a ground station and capable of delivering a guided weapon stored in its hold". The combat vehicle is not an end in itself, but should also serve to "study new concepts for the operational deployment of the personnel and airborne combat systems resulting from the removal of the pilot". The results of the programme should be useful "for new manned combat aircraft or the mid-life renovation of Rafale". The first tests and flights are scheduled for 2008-2009.




Neuron, which can weigh up to 8 tonnes, is diamond-shaped platform equipped with stealth technology and capable of carrying 250 kg of guided munitions. It is derived from the AVE (Aéronef Validation Expérimental) programme launched at the end of the last decade in two versions: "D" for the stealth version and "C" for the control version (also known as Petit Duc). Together with the French company SAGEM − the prime contractor for several tactical observation UAVs including the new multi-sensor UAV Sperwer purchased by Canada, Denmark, France, Greece, the Netherlands and Sweden − Dassault is developing a stealthy tactical UAV for observation and combat called SlowFast (but also known as Moyen Duc). This UAV designed for observation and ground attack missions should be operational as of 2007-2008.







The Swedish firm SAAB, which is also involved in the Neuron demonstrator, is working in parallel on a UCAV project designed to complete the fleet of Gripen JAS-39 aircraft currently flown by the Swedish air force. SHARC (Swedish Highly Advanced Research Configuration) is a stealthy UCAV that is autonomous in terms of navigation and mission execution. A quarter-size model has been flying since 2002. SAAB's know-how in this field is also represented by its FILUR (Flying Innovative Low-Observable Unmanned Research Vehicle) demonstrator project. The results of this programme help improve the low-observability performance of SHARC, with which it is being conducted in parallel. The combined experience obtained from these two demonstrators provides valuable input for the Neuron European programme. On the other side, many programs like Getoga or Skvadren were abadoned.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

I don't see the french/germans helping the US in any scenario unless its backed by a UN mandate.. Thats for sure..

Why the French need UCAVs and expensive weapon systems is beyond me when is the last time they fought in a war? And they will probably surrender before they use any of their weapons anyway so...

Thats an exceedingly offensive and borderline racist comment West Point,
Im not french myself, but my Grandfather was an RAF pilot shot down in the second world war, he was not only hidden from the occupying forces, but was eventually moved over eight hundred miles to the spanish border and eventually back to England, the FRENCH people that accomplished this (and thousands of other instances like it) helped make this possible and displayed unimaginable bravery!!!

And whilst I am at it, you shouldnt forget the help that the FRENCH gave to the fledgling US forces in the War of Independenec where FRENCH aid and fighting men helped the US gain independence from us Brits. So please pause for a seconds thought before maligning another nation, you never know what they did for you in the past !

FYI people.csail.mit.edu...