Homosexuality: Genetic Origins or Lifestyle Choice?

The post "are you a homophobe????" by MarkosOrrealus got me to wondering about homosexuality. I hope this kind of post hasn't been done before, but the only thing I could find even close to this was this: www.abovetopsecret.com... but it isn't quite what I'm getting at, so I started this thread. (I tried searching for gay, homosexuality, homo, homophobe, to the beginning, in separate searches for each word)

Basically, I am wondering, what is the cause of homosexuality? Please in this thread refrain from commenting whether you believe it is acceptable or not, sin or not, etc. I am looking ONLY at the SOURCE of homosexuality, nothing else, here. Here are a few of my observations towards the genetic origins case, and the lifestyle choice case.

Genetic Origins
-given the stigma that surrounds homosexuality, it seems that few people would willingly choose such a lifestyle. A university professor told our class that approximately 11% of the world population is gay or lesbian. (I only have met one gay person, however, so I am skeptical of this statistic, although it did come from the UN, and they aren't likely to b.s. something like that) She also told us that in previous years, some students have told her that they were gay/lesbian, in approximately that percentage. I've also seen numbers of roughly 10% in other locations, as well.
-there are well-documented cases of people born androgynous. It seems a small reach to assume that homosexuality can also occur at birth
-there are documented instances of animals engaging in homosexual behavior; the ones i recall reading about were beetles and monkeys, but there are probably lots more. Animals tend to act more on instinct than reason, and I doubt that most animals would be cognitively capable of making such a choice as sexual preference, they would follow their instinct. I could see more intelligent species such as the monkey making choices like this, but the beetle? I doubt it.
Lifestyle Choice
-if homosexuality was genetic, shouldn't natural selection result in less homosexuality over time, eventually causing it to cease to exist? After all, homosexual relationships don't produce children. (although bisexual ones can, plus some gay people marry someone of the opposite sex to hide their homosexuality, or because they aren't conscious of it themselves)
-if homosexuality was genetic, wouldn't all homosexuals therefore know in early childhood that they were 'different'? Some do, obviously, but others make it into adulthood before they notice their homosexual tendencies, suggesting they are something that evolved over time, rather than predetermined at birth

If there are any other possibilities besidse the two in my title, feel free to suggest them.

For the record, I am a 23 year old straight white churchgoing Canadian male with 4 years of university, if it matters.

Contrary to popular conceptions it is purely of Genetic Origins. You are either born straight or you are not. It is a not a matter of choice.

It has been proven through numerous studies that homesexual boys tend to play more with dolls during this childhood, etc.

I don't remember the entire story and reason behind it, but I remember it is of only genetic origins.

Let me find my psych book at get back to you.

Surf

Originally posted by surfup
You are either born straight or you are not. It is a not a matter of choice.

Betchya' Michael Jackson was 'made' a pedophile. His father beat him
and took him to strip joints to sing and perform in as a child. His mother
got a hold of him and screamed scripture quotes and J.W. propaganda
at him. He never had a childhood. He became unbalanced ... and he
became a sick homosexual pedophile. (no, not all homosexuals are
pedophiles, but most pedophiles are homosexual).

Seriously .. both sides have good arguments ... and both sides are
probably right. Many homosexual people are born that way and many,
due to life events, either experiment with the gay/bi lifestyle or adapt it.

As far as the psychology books go ... the old ones say homosexuality
is a mental illness. (heck, the old psychology books say that women
who want to work outside the home have mental health problems).
The new ones say it is just fine (both homosexuality AND women
working outside the home ).

Aside from being forced, sex and who you engage in it with are a personal choice regardless of internal motivations, feelings, genetics, how you were brought up, or any other factor.

most pedophiles are homosexual

Wrong. Most pedophiles are heterosexual, to the extent that they prefer a given sex at all. Far more girls get molested by men than boys. Look it up.

For the most part though, child molesters don't seem to care about their victims' sex at all, it's a power thing, and they like boinking children because it makes them feel powerful. From what I know about it, for a lot of them, the child's gender is much less important than the fact that it's a child, period.

They are not one and the same in spite of efforts to link them by the religious right.

And does it really matter whether "being gay" is a choice or genetic predisposition? There are entirely too many people concerned with what is going on in other people's bedrooms. This preoccupation with other people's sexual proclivities is humourous at best and just downright sad.

Life is too short - live and let live.
Bleys

Originally posted by surfup
Contrary to popular conceptions it is purely of Genetic Origins. You are either born straight or you are not. It is a not a matter of choice.
It has been proven through numerous studies that homesexual boys tend to play more with dolls during this childhood, etc.

I believe Homosexuality not genetic....It is a lifestle influenced
by the enviorment in which a person is raised.

But why does the boy play with dolls?
Because he is probably raised around women, and
dolls are what is offered to him instead of GI-Joe's and
Little green army men.

That's just one example.

Originally posted by surfup
It has been proven through numerous studies that homesexual boys tend to play more with dolls during this childhood, etc.

Here's the dolls this hetro played with:

GI Joe:




Kung Fu grip extra.

Originally posted by SportyMB

I believe Homosexuality not genetic....It is a lifestle influenced
by the enviorment in which a person is raised.

But why does the boy play with dolls?
Because he is probably raised around women, and
dolls are what is offered to him instead of GI-Joe's and
Little green army men.

That's just one example.

I find this very much a response given by somebody that has been influence to believe that homosexuals are made.

Well I play with my brothers toys and I play among his friends like any of the guys.

The last time I saw myself in the mirror I was a female as feminine as you can find a women.

Sometimes I wonder if people can tell a bashing gay thread from a serious one.

What people does in their bedrooms and with their lives as long as it between two consenting adults is nobodies business.

So get off the gay agenda please.

[edit on 21-4-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by surfup
It has been proven through numerous studies that homesexual boys tend to play more with dolls during this childhood, etc.

Here's the dolls this hetro played with:

GI Joe:

Kung Fu grip extra.

Joe seems to have his hands full there Intrepid.

But I agree with you - stereotyping sexuality through toys just can't be done. I have the best collection of hot wheels cars and my husband still has a favorite stuffed animal. Yet *shock* were raving heterosexuals.

bleys

Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by SportyMB

I believe Homosexuality not genetic....It is a lifestle influenced
by the enviorment in which a person is raised.

But why does the boy play with dolls?
Because he is probably raised around women, and
dolls are what is offered to him instead of GI-Joe's and
Little green army men.

That's just one example.

I find this very much a response given by somebody that has been influence to believe that homosexuals are made.

Well I play with my brothers toys and I play among his friends like any of the guys.

The last time I saw myself in the mirror I was a female as feminine as you can find a women.

Sometimes I wonder if people can tell a bashing gay thread from a serious one.

What people does in their bedrooms and with their lives as long as it between two consenting adults is nobodies business.

So get off the gay agenda please.

[edit on 21-4-2005 by marg6043]

Marg, I am not bashing any gays in this thread. Nothing I said was even close to being considered as a "gay bash"

I was just answering the mans questions
what is the cause of homosexuality?

And I used the doll theory as a reference because someone brought it up as a possible early childhood indicator of homosexuality and how there is a trend that gay men might have played with dolls more than others.

I believe that homosexuality is not genetic...that gays are are
product a of thier enviorment or maybe life expierences (sp)

Heck it could even work in reverse.....the boy could grow up to be a regular Ricco Suavey with the ladies..who know's

And I agree, what people do behind closed doors in thier bedrooms is thier business....Im contibuting to this thread just as you are.

Oh yeah, and Im not so hell bent on believing that homosexuality is not genetic that if presented with some good hard corps evidence that it is in fact all in genetics that I will not change my mind.....I will change it.

Im just not too concerned with it really, I have to problemo with gay people


Peace

[edit on 21/4/2005 by SportyMB]

To be honest, I don't care if it's a lifestyle choice or if they are born as homosexuals, they have a right to live their lives as they choose without the busybodies of this world harrassing them.

It's in the constitution of the USA that everyone is entitled to the right of life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. That does NOT exclude someone simply because they are attracted to the same sex. They have a right to live their lives, within the law, as they choose.

Personally, I believe gays are born that way, if i'm wrong it still makes not one bit of differance, they have the right to be happy, just as everyone else does.

Just to set things straight, i'm totally hetero and in a serious dry spell, any single women on ATS?

Love and light to each of you,

Wupy

I agree, but like I said, it doesn't have to do with the environment at all, I know most people will fight their feelings because society dictate that is a different between genders.

But then at the end instead of growing up healthy with healthy desires they are shut down by society because what we have been drill by our religion of what is suppose to be wrong and what is suppose to be right.

Actually Morals and moral views are influence by religion.

We should be going after child molesters that most of the time are targeting the opposite sex that gays because they can "influence or target boys"

Right now I have seen more girls been targeted by sick males than anything else.

If homosexuality was in genetics, it could still be a lifestyle choice.

John Doe at age 32 with no prior gay thoughts or deeds could maybe oneday decide to expierment for whatever reason and decide that he likes men instead of women or maybe he likes them both.

Im sure that happens sometimes, especially when someone goes off to college or moves out and gets thier first scent of freedom and are exposed to other cultures, new people, and fresh ideas that could accumulate over time and eventually that young open minded person is gonna try something new cause he/she wants change, or maybe the opposite sex just didnt cut it for them or didnt fullfill thier desires like they used to for whatever reason.

[edit on 21/4/2005 by SportyMB]

Thanks everybody who posted for the input. I tend to wonder about a lot of strange stuff like this, and often something just pops into my head without any warning, like this did. I'm just interested in learning about this for the sake of knowing. I don't think it would change much if we knew the answer to my question, but I like asking those sorts of questions, anyway. Makes people think

edit: incidentally, this thread used to be in education/media. Gools moved it here since it fits in this forum better. I didn't even know this category existed, hehe, it was a real shocker to see a thread moved to somewhere I'd never heard of. Guess I should check out some of the ATS sister sites a little more often

[edit on 22-4-2005 by DragonsDemesne]

No offense, but I can tell you've never talked to the gay people around you.

Originally posted by SportyMB
If homosexuality was in genetics, it could still be a lifestyle choice.

That's like saying "if shortness was in genetics, it could still be a lifestyle choice."

John Doe at age 32 with no prior gay thoughts or deeds could maybe oneday decide to expierment for whatever reason and decide that he likes men instead of women or maybe he likes them both.

This doesn't happen unless the man is put into a very unusual situation (all male company and with no sexual outlets for a very long time (prison)) -- and even then there would have to be some predisposition. If you'd ever talked with any gay/bisexual people, you would know that those who are gay/bisexual know it at a fairly early age.

To consider the shortness analogy, people don't just wake up and say "hey, I think I'll now try being 4 feet tall so that I can get more dates and all like that!" You don't wake up and just "decide to be homosexual."

Im sure that happens sometimes, especially when someone goes off to college or moves out and gets thier first scent of freedom and are exposed to other cultures, new people, and fresh ideas that could accumulate over time and eventually that young open minded person is gonna try something new cause he/she wants change, or maybe the opposite sex just didnt cut it for them or didnt fullfill thier desires like they used to for whatever reason.

Only if they're already predisposed to bisexuality (many people are) or homosexuality. If you're firmly heterosexual then bisexuality or homosexuality simply can't be instilled in you.

Might I suggest that you go talk to some homosexuals? They won't attack you and attempt to convert you -- I have a number of lesbian friends and they have never ever tried to put the moves on me. I think you might have quite a different perspective if you, too, talked to them.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by SportyMB
If homosexuality was in genetics, it could still be a lifestyle choice.

That's like saying "if shortness was in genetics, it could still be a lifestyle choice."

It's not like saying that at all. Even if one were genetically predisposed to being homosexual it would still be a personal choice to engage in homosexual behavior. There are many cases where those who feel that they were born homosexual have chosen to live a heterosexual lifestyle. What behavior does being short induce? Being short may result in the stereotypical "short man's complex" but wouldn't acting like that be a choice?


Steve

Homosexuality isn't lifestyle choice it is genetic. It is well known that there are a great deal of animals that are gay, somehow I don't think they are capable of making a lifestyle decision.

.

Are you insinuating that human beings do not have a choice in the sexual behavior that they engage in?

Steve

People can choose what they do.
They simply cannot choose what they desire.

I prefer chocolate ice cream to vanilla.
Is this a result of a conscious choice?