Extreme Islam and the democratic process.

A contradiction in terms?

A mob of young Islamist extremists allegedly threatened to hang anti-war campaigner George Galloway last night as as the country's most bitter election battle spilled into violence on the streets of the East End. . . . They said he was a false prophet and that was punishable by death

Edit.

After reading Valhall's post about catholics, and seeing how the follow up posts in this thread have been tending, I have edited the above to focus on the central issue:


Extreme islam is opposed to the democratic process as it is the one thing that will eventually weaken the power of the mullahs.

Europe is facing a major crisis in this regard and it will not go away soon.





[edit on 20-4-2005 by HowardRoark]

The Islam religion of the peace

Originally posted by almasad
The Islam religion of the peace

Yah!!, It's a religion of "peace".

Maybe if it were reversed and made a complete 180.

I believe Islam is a religion of hatred and violance.
The terrorist and so called extremist are not misreading Islam...
They're not because it's what the The Holy Qur'an tells them to do.

They are truly following what it says.

Now, the Muslims who are peaceful and live day to day
in America-Surburbia that pose no immediate threat and are overall
good to go average Americans or whatever nationality....they are the ones who are mis-reading the book, because if they truly followed it they would be out there strapping on bombs and putting C4 in thier kids
saying "C'ya in paradise".

Get my point......Ilsam (overall) is based on lies, deception and hatred of others who believe it as the truth.

If you're going to look for a religion whose adherents have never embraced violence and mass murder, you're going to have to look for a long time.

Zoroastrianism maybe? The Bahai?

And please don't tell me Christianity has anything over Islam on the mayhem and murder front. To do so requires a vast ignorance of history - right up to Eric Robert Rudolph.

Originally posted by xmotex
And please don't tell me Christianity has anything over Islam on the mayhem and murder front

I won't. I agree...Christianilty has it's share of murder and mayhem, the crusades is one example.

But, As for as I know (I may be wrong, if so correct me) the Chrisitan bible does not tell Christians to go at war and oppose all those who are not chrisitan....not to that extreme.

The Qu'ran does exactly that.

Before we get off track here,

Let's consider what is happening. Not only are these young extreamists, deliberately disenfranchising themselves, they are trying to actively subvert the very process that allows them the the basic freedoms that they enjoy.

I guarantee that none of those young men would jump at the chance to move back to Iraq or Iran.

This is hooliganism, plain and simple. Unfortunalely, they have excellent role models in that regard.

I would like to point out, before the rest of my post, that I do not like ANY organised religion. I find them all tools of man to manipulate other men in the name of God.

That said, I find it very funny IN MODERN TIMES that most "radical" Christians are radical in their defence of life. Anti-abortion, anti-death penalty, anti-euthanasia are all traits of a radical Christian while radical Muslims are perhaps the most violent people on earth, advocating beheadings, torture, and terrorism while also preaching Jihad, or quite litterally war.

Christianity has had it's own share of problems, but to compare the radicals of both religions in modern times is simply absurd.

[edit on 20-4-2005 by American Mad Man]

SportyMB got it right.

The Sick Sheik Omar Bakri Mohammed who is the leader of these gangs should be DEPORTED and than deport all his followers and their families back to whatever Hellhole they crawled up from.

If there was any BALLS in left in London, they would BULLDOZE the Regent Park mosque to the ground.


Maximu§

For those that didn't believe before, EUROPE is being INVADED by radical Islam. Europe needs to do something NOW to prevent it from taking over.

If Europe is not carefull, it is going to become exactly like the ME - with a majority Muslim population which allows the most radical Isamic leader to take power.

I gather they are the followers of Omar Bakri Mohammed, a very twisted and bitter individual who has described non islamics as having lives that are worthless and aqble to be killed. I don't know why they are not deported out of the UK.

here is the source as well

Mr Bakri Mohammed, a Syrian-born hardliner, has been touring the country promoting the message that voting is un-Islamic and sinful, attracting hundreds of Muslim youths still angry at the invasion of Iraq and anti-terror laws which are perceived as anti-Muslim.

So much for Islam and moderation ....

note that I have made some edits to the opening post.


This is an issue about power and economics, not religion.

I wonder how many of those Islamic hooligans are gainfully employed?

How often did spectacles like this take place in England before September 11, 2001? Were muslims already becoming unruly or was it only after two muslm countries got occupied by foreign troops? You cannot expect to invade and occupy Islamic countries and have no backlash by muslims living within your own borders. There are going to be ugly scenes as a result unless you completely lock down your own country under martial law.

I couldn't imagine a takeover of two Christian nations by some democratic republic without some type of Christian backlash in the invading country.


[edit on 20-4-2005 by Frith]

one could also argue that you can't expect to hijack and crash airplanes into buildings without some backlash either.

That is notthe point. These people are trying to activly subvert the very process that gives them the freedoms for doing that.

What would happen if a group of Christians were to imigrate to Iran and act in the same manner?

I don't disagree the UK should deport these guys, but to take 40 fanatics and use it to say "OMG Islam is ebil!" is ridiculous. Should we judge all Christians by the example of Fred Phelps? Why aren't the moderate Christians out there condemning Fred Phelps and Eric Rudolph?

So much for moderation in Christianity...

(see how stupid it sounds?)

Originally posted by HowardRoark
one could also argue that you can't expect to hijack and crash airplanes into buildings without some backlash either.

That is notthe point. These people are trying to activly subvert the very process that gives them the freedoms for doing that.

What would happen if a group of Christians were to imigrate to Iran and act in the same manner?

Iran isn't currently engaged in the occupation of two countries so a spectacle like this would be incredibly confusing to those in its government. This spectacle erupted as a direct result of English military actions in the Middle East and not just due to political differences.

These are reactionary extremists. Created as a direct result of what is taking place in countries they feel that they have religious ties to. Since this wasn't happening in England before the political climate of 2001-2005, then these youths have only been doing this public subversion for a short while. Before then they were most likely moderates or extremists that felt no need to interfere with the political processes of the country they resided in. Its coalition foreign policy that created this situation in Britain and it will require a change in coalition foreign policy to see situations like this stop. If no change takes place then we can all expect these spectacles to continue.

Given the fabrications for the reasons of the coalition's war on Iraq, I really don't see how their illegal reaction to an illegal action shows them to be any worse than what they are opposing. Does that make it right? No, but they at least have a reason to do what they did rather than just coming out against the government they live under simply for religious and political differences.


[edit on 21-4-2005 by Frith]

Let me address the initial post...

There were two incidents, one involving Galloway and another one involving the press conference of Muslim Council of Britain (MCB). The mob stormed this press conference chanting some crap. I quote:

Chanting slogans in English and Arabic, they stood on chairs and shouted insults at Iqbal Sacranie, the secretary-general of the MCB, accusing him of apostasy in urging people to vote. They then handed out leaflets which read: "Voting for any political party ... will guarantee your seat in hellfire forever."

This is just your everyday vandalism.

So, there we have MCB urging people to vote; Islam and democracy do go together.
Assholes and democracy do not go together, also evident from the article.

People always look for excuse to be violent. It could be religion, politics, patriotism, freedom, security, racism, nazism, or they are just plain crazy and act accordingly.

I don't know why people think that muslims should be somehow geneticaly altered so that not a single one of them displays any kind of violent behaviour whatsoever. Trust me, we are just as messed up as the rest of humanity. No more, no less.

If you compare the number of extremist muslims to number of normal muslims in EU you will see that the ratio is about the same like when you compare the number of neo-nazis, who beat up foreigners every day, to number of normal europeans.

I keep telling people that EU needs a tougher policy against any kind of right wing radical behaviour. What we have now is too weak, we need EU wide laws and regulations. Politicians seem to be afraid to speak up, which doesn't make much sense. Normal people of all races and religions are fed up with these extreme right wing nutters, they wouldn't mind tougher actions. Of course, you might make bigots angry, but nobody is trying to make killers and rapists happy either.

Originally posted by SportyMB

Originally posted by almasad
The Islam religion of the peace

Yah!!, It's a religion of "peace".

Maybe if it were reversed and made a complete 180.

I believe Islam is a religion of hatred and violance.
The terrorist and so called extremist are not misreading Islam...
They're not because it's what the The Holy Qur'an tells them to do.

They are truly following what it says.

Now, the Muslims who are peaceful and live day to day
in America-Surburbia that pose no immediate threat and are overall
good to go average Americans or whatever nationality....they are the ones who are mis-reading the book, because if they truly followed it they would be out there strapping on bombs and putting C4 in thier kids
saying "C'ya in paradise".

Get my point......Ilsam (overall) is based on lies, deception and hatred of others who believe it as the truth.

Really if you have ever bothered to try and base your bs claims on any research you would see you are so wrong... Just because like a few hundred in billions do something wrong you blame the whole religion? How stupid are you to not realise if 1.2 billion muslims wanted to kill any none muslim there would be a whole lot more trouble then there is today...

The sad thing is with idiots like you spreading complete lies and scaring other gullable people, you push more people into extremism like you yourself seem to be

Heated debate... I know.

Keep it civil and far away from becoming a back and forth of people calling each other idiots. That's just not called for.

Originally posted by SportyMBare overall
good to go average Americans or whatever nationality....they are the ones who are mis-reading the book

The koran, like the bible, can be used to justify just about anything.

But, As for as I know (I may be wrong, if so correct me) the Chrisitan bible does not tell Christians to go at war and oppose all those who are not chrisitan....not to that extreme

Incorrect. The old testament is very clear, destroy the unfaithful and god will be on your side. The teachings of jesus are radical and militant, and very much look down on the non-beleivers. Also, revelation is focused on going to war with the non-beleivers and destroying them. Just look at what is popular amoung christians today. The 'Left Behind' series is focused on non-beleivers melting, dying horribly, and the like. Or even this 'Revelation' TV show is focused on the destruction of the world, a little girl geting blasted out of her shoes by lightening.
Heck, look at "The Passion". A movie focused on the brutal and viscious aspects, obviously not the same as the above of course. But it shows that christians are fascinated, entranced, by the gore and violence.

howardroark
Not only are these young extreamists, deliberately disenfranchising themselves, they are trying to actively subvert the very process that allows them the the basic freedoms that they enjoy.

Indeed. I don't understand why its tolerated. In the US in the old days, it was illegal to be an active communist. Why? Because the communists openly advocated and worked for the destruction of the state. Any such movement should be illegal. Any Radical movement, technically, seeks to destroy the state and replace it with another, violently. If it wasn't violent and destructive, it wouldn't be Radical, it'd just be a Reactionary Revolution, in a way.
Or in germany today, the Nazi party is illegal, and for good reason. Thats the party that usurped the state and nearly destroyed germany forever. Why not apply the same measures against radical "islamo-fascism"?
I mean, if a person is calling for the state to be more in line with the Koran, all well and good, the christians do the same. But if they are actually saying to destroy the state, support jihadis, and install an Islamic Republic? Anyone doing that is, by definition, an enemy of the state itself.

american mad man
Christianity has had it's own share of problems, but to compare the radicals of both religions in modern times is simply absurd.

Violent islamic radicalism has a larger 'membership' base than violent radical conservative christianity. But christian radicals are just as death obsessed. What does it matter if you are bombing an abortion clinic? Thats not 'life obsessed', the jihadi who blows up a school were police are being trained can, and does, similarly reason that he is protecting the innocent. Its the same thing.

netchicken
So much for Islam and moderation

This is absurd. One can just as easily point to mussolini and say the same thing. This guy is not a moderate. Obviously. I agree, he should be locked up, not deported, but locked up interogated and his network investigated and treated similarly. But lets not bash all muslims because of an extremist.

howardroark
I wonder how many of those Islamic hooligans are gainfully employed?

Good point. Disenfranchisement, powerlessness, and humiliation all help extremism. These thugs are like the SA. Out of work, out of power, hopeless weaklings. If germany hadn't been in an economic disaster, then thugs like the SA would've been quashed quickly, and wouldn't be able to recruit.
If one wants to stop the problem break up the networks, and integreate the population. One instead of the other don't work. It has to be both. The worst thing to do is to not integrate immigrants. Integration and assimilation are vital. Leaving these people out of the loop, well, it doesn't make their extremism right, but it hardly makes it a surprise.

frith
This spectacle erupted as a direct result of English military actions in the Middle East and not just due to political differences.

No, its not. These things were going on before the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. The poltical movement of international-jihad and islamo-fascism-socialism has nothing to do with the current occupation. There are extremeist-traditionalists in the Middle East who violently object to modernization, and blame it on the west as imperialism, even when its arabic pop singers making arabic pop music bought by an arabic public. When the men from waziristan see billboards with not extremely modetly dressed, but only modestly/prudishly dressed pakistani women in adds, they freak out, and blame it on the west, and use that to advocate murder. Thats wrong, thats got nothing to do with the current occupation. THe internationalist-jihad movement is very much an anti-imerpialist fascist/socialist movement, very similar to nazism and communism ih rhetoric and modes of rule. They were overyl convered about 'The Monied Powers' long before the Saudis agreed to american bases in Saudi Arabia, let alone this triffling 'occupation'.