A pitfall hidden in our faith. A potential rather than a known conspiracy.

Priests have the power to impose conditions on whether their sacramental ministry does anything for anyone. Secretly or otherwise.

It is thought the recipient will not be helped even if he does not reveal or even know that he violates such a condition.

Suppose a bishop imposed conditions on priestly candidates' ordination so that they could only help people who met the bishop's condition.

Suppose the priests ordained by the priests ordained by the bishop could also only help people who met the bishop's condition, whether or not the priests or the faithful realized.


Why might that prove misleading? Suppose the faithful were led to think violating the condition displeased God...

...when in fact the bishop who ordained the priest who ordained the fathfuls' priest simply withheld his intention to convey ordination which worked to help those who violate a given condition.


Suppose the bishop who started the condition belonged to some faction. Holy Orders remain valid even if the minister is in a state of mortal sin so it can't be assumed any given condition is not harmful.

Suppose bishops and popes have no authority other than what the adherents give then.

These people are not Gods instruments, they’re leeches and parasites who prey on and mislead those who follow the wide path paved with good intentions.

a reply to: Solvedit

originally posted by: Dalamax
Suppose bishops and popes have no authority other than what the adherents give then.

These people are not Gods instruments, they’re leeches and parasites who prey on and mislead those who follow the wide path paved with good intentions.

Then what is baptism for? God instituted it with the prophet John the Baptist.

They may have a way to make it only work conditionally.


Suppose for example they are being told Marxism is Christian, and the power of God seems to stop helping them right where they don't conform to Marxism, but it's only because some priest or bishop somewhere withheld their intention to confer the help of Christ upon any issue which doesn't build Marxism?

Some of the faithful do rely on human-mediated sacraments whether you like it or not. A priest can be helpful.

Marxism stands firmly against Christianity. Government takes God place in the Marxist cult.

Pastors, priests, Bishops, Popes, and ministers can do nothing for you. Read the scripture yourself. You are responsible for your own relationship directly with the Father through the Son. Either you walk with Christ, or you walk with Satan. You never walk alone. Your choice. Its between you and God.

originally posted by: visitedbythem
Marxism stands firmly against Christianity. Government takes God place in the Marxist cult.

Pastors, priests, Bishops, Popes, and ministers can do nothing for you. Read the scripture yourself. You are responsible for your own relationship directly with the Father through the Son. Either you walk with Christ, or you walk with Satan. You never walk alone. Your choice. Its between you and God.

originally posted by: Solvedit

originally posted by: Dalamax
Suppose bishops and popes have no authority other than what the adherents give then.

These people are not Gods instruments, they’re leeches and parasites who prey on and mislead those who follow the wide path paved with good intentions.

Then what is baptism for? God instituted it with the prophet John the Baptist.

They may have a way to make it only work conditionally.


Suppose for example they are being told Marxism is Christian, and the power of God seems to stop helping them right where they don't conform to Marxism, but it's only because some priest or bishop somewhere withheld their intention to confer the help of Christ upon any issue which doesn't build Marxism?

Some of the faithful do rely on human-mediated sacraments whether you like it or not. A priest can be helpful.

Baptism is submitting yourself to God, it doesn’t derive it’s sanctity from the baptist. It draws on the individuals faith to have an effect.

It’s not weather I personally like or dislike anything, again those sacraments are helpful because of the believers faith and not because of the prieat.

a reply to: Dalamax

Baptism in front of others seems to be a status statement these days. And you dont have to be baptized in actual water either. you can be baptised in the word as well. Remember the thief who was beside Jesus when he was crucified? He was not baptized and jesus told him he would be with him in paradise after he put his faith in him correct?

We are under GRACE,not works. Baptism could be considered a work correct?

It isn’t considered a work it is an act. An act of faith, in three parts, word thought and deed.

The thief fulfilled all three parts by being put to death, hearing Jesus’s words and actively having faith in his salvation.

A submission to a faith in providence.

a reply to: yuppa

originally posted by: Dalamax
It isn’t considered a work it is an act. An act of faith, in three parts, word thought and deed.

The thief fulfilled all three parts by being put to death, hearing Jesus’s words and actively having faith in his salvation.

A submission to a faith in providence.

a reply to: yuppa

So then a actual baptism in water is not needed then it seems. Asking and accepting jesus as your saviour,doing as you should and having faith in his words and promises works as well.

I believe Jesus is the Way to eternal life (but not as we know it) there is divinity in all of the creation, like parts of a hologram contain the whole.

You are the creator experiencing the creation, respect all life, endure and bear witness.

a reply to: yuppa

originally posted by: Solvedit
...
Suppose for example they are being told Marxism is Christian, and the power of God seems to stop helping them right where they don't conform to Marxism, but it's only because some priest or bishop somewhere withheld their intention to confer the help of Christ upon any issue which doesn't build Marxism?

Perhaps that would be a good time then to be reminded that God's Word, the Bible, talks about those who speak twisted things in order to draw away Christ's disciples after themselves. And that it would be a good thing to avoid such people or any religion that allows such people to remain in their Church* as teachers, theologians and people taking the lead such as Priests and Bishops (*: referring to the institution, not the building).

Acts 20:29

I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.

“For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome* [Or “healthful; beneficial.”] teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.* [Or “to tell them what they want to hear.”] They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.” (2 Timothy 4:3,4)

“Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;” (Col 2:8)

“However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron.” (1 Timothy 4:1,2).

After all, Karl Marx developed an antireligion philosophy that became very influential. Marx apparently considered religion an obstacle to human progress. He claimed that mankind’s needs could best be met by materialism, a philosophy that left no room for God or for traditional religion. This led him to state: “The first requisite for the people’s happiness is the abolition of religion.”

Marx’s philosophy of materialism was further developed by the German socialist Friedrich Engels and the Russian Communist leader Vladimir Lenin. It came to be known as Marxism-Leninism. Until fairly recently, over a third of mankind lived under political regimes that followed to a greater or lesser degree this atheistic philosophy.

During the 1960’s, Protestantism came up with a theology that proclaimed the “death of God.” Many Protestant clergymen condoned a materialistic life-style. They countenanced premarital sex and even homosexuality. Some Catholic theologians developed liberation theology, mixing Catholicism with revolutionary Marxism.

Thus, secularism came to predominate, particularly during the 1960’s and up until about the middle of the 1970’s. Then things changed again. Religion, although not, for the most part, the mainstream churches, seemed to make a comeback. All around the world, the late 1970’s and the 1980’s witnessed a proliferation of new religious groups.

Why the resurgence of religion? French sociologist Gilles Kepel stated that “secularly educated lay people . . . maintain that secular culture has led them to a dead end and that by asserting their liberation from God, men are reaping what they have sown by their pride and vanity, namely, delinquency, divorce, AIDS, drug abuse, [and] suicide.”

The retreat of secularism has gathered fresh momentum since the apparent collapse of Marxism-Leninism in the 1980's and 1990's. For many people this atheistic philosophy had become a veritable religion. Imagine, then, the bewilderment of those who put their trust in it! A Washington Post dispatch from Moscow quoted a former rector of the Communist Party Higher School who said: “A country lives not only on its economy and institutions, but also on its mythology and founding fathers. It’s a devastating thing for any society to discover that their greatest myths are based not on truth but propaganda and fantasy. But that is what we are experiencing now in the case of Lenin and the revolution.”

Speaking of both Communist and capitalist worlds, the French sociologist and philosopher Edgar Morin admitted: “Not only have we seen the collapse of the brilliant future held out to the proletariat but we have also seen the collapse of the automatic and natural progress of secular society, wherein science, reason, and democracy were supposed to advance automatically. . . . No progress is now assured. The future we had hoped for has collapsed.” Such is the empty feeling of many who put their faith in man’s efforts to create a better world without God.

“Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless condition. It is the opium of the people.”—Karl Marx

Marxism really is quite incompatible with true Christianity, revolutionary Marxism even more so. One day people really should ask themselves why some theologians (especially Roman Catholic theologians in Latin America) have been allowed to remain in their Church and were never expelled even while promoting, supporting and endorsing revolutionary Marxism in the countries they operated in (often just because it was popular there, and their support drew in more visitors to their Church, the building, and thus increased the amount of money they could make off these people by going along with whatever was more popular in their area at the time and made them more money).

A New York Times editorial acknowledged that the official Vatican position is that clerics should not be involved in partisan politics, but it further said that the Vatican “also embraces liberation theology’s fundamental principle: that the Christian Gospel justifies the struggles of the poor for political freedom and control over their lives.”

In a similar vein is the charge that Maryknoll, a Catholic missionary order, has been “spreading the gospel of liberation theology and socialist politics.” A 1985 study, The Revolution Lobby, charged: “Maryknoll has successfully brought the Marxist-Leninist message of violent revolution into public acceptance precisely because it has been allowed to operate as an arm of the Catholic Church. Its message has reached not only the average churchgoer, but leading American policymakers, as well.”

From wikipedia:

As of 2008, there are over 475 Maryknoll priests and brothers serving in countries around the world, principally in Africa, Asia and Latin America. Throughout their history, especially in the first half of the 20th century, Maryknoll missioners played a large role in the Catholic Church in East Asia where some missioners still work. Maryknoll also has extensive connections with many Latin American countries ...

Its headquarters is in New York. Where it was also founded.

Maryknollers are sometimes known as the "Marines of the Catholic Church" ... In the mid-20th century, this movement came to be associated with liberation theology.

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Dalamax
It isn’t considered a work it is an act. An act of faith, in three parts, word thought and deed.

The thief fulfilled all three parts by being put to death, hearing Jesus’s words and actively having faith in his salvation.

A submission to a faith in providence.

a reply to: yuppa

So then a actual baptism in water is not needed then it seems. Asking and accepting jesus as your saviour,doing as you should and having faith in his words and promises works as well.

What if the mob had been pressuring you when you just heard of Christianity?

originally posted by: Solvedit

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Dalamax
It isn’t considered a work it is an act. An act of faith, in three parts, word thought and deed.

The thief fulfilled all three parts by being put to death, hearing Jesus’s words and actively having faith in his salvation.

A submission to a faith in providence.

a reply to: yuppa

So then a actual baptism in water is not needed then it seems. Asking and accepting jesus as your saviour,doing as you should and having faith in his words and promises works as well.

What if the mob had been pressuring you when you just heard of Christianity?

No one pressured me. all done by free will. I was born into a baptist family,but was not pressed to go to church or get dunked in the river.

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Solvedit

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Dalamax
It isn’t considered a work it is an act. An act of faith, in three parts, word thought and deed.

The thief fulfilled all three parts by being put to death, hearing Jesus’s words and actively having faith in his salvation.

A submission to a faith in providence.

a reply to: yuppa

So then a actual baptism in water is not needed then it seems. Asking and accepting jesus as your saviour,doing as you should and having faith in his words and promises works as well.

What if the mob had been pressuring you when you just heard of Christianity?

No one pressured me. all done by free will. I was born into a baptist family,but was not pressed to go to church or get dunked in the river.

Would you have had time to do all that, if the mob had been pressuring you?

Didn't the baptism impart something upon you? What if your minister had been able to rig it so that went away if you went against the mob?

This thread isn't really about the Reformation but a potential pitfall of having to use a human intercessor, though it also has advantages.

originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: Solvedit
...
Suppose for example they are being told Marxism is Christian, and the power of God seems to stop helping them right where they don't conform to Marxism, but it's only because some priest or bishop somewhere withheld their intention to confer the help of Christ upon any issue which doesn't build Marxism?

During the 1960’s, Protestantism came up with a theology that proclaimed the “death of God.” Many Protestant clergymen condoned a materialistic life-style. They countenanced premarital sex and even homosexuality. Some Catholic theologians developed liberation theology, mixing Catholicism with revolutionary Marxism.

It was planned long before the 1960s.

From a Bing search summary:

The “Long March through the Institutions” was a phrase attributed to the Italian communist Antonio Gramsci (1891-1937) and then coined as a succinct mission statement by Marxist student activist Rudi Dutschke in the 1960s. The phrase is used to describe the intellectual takeover of a society without need to resort to a military conflict.

originally posted by: Solvedit

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Solvedit

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Dalamax
It isn’t considered a work it is an act. An act of faith, in three parts, word thought and deed.

The thief fulfilled all three parts by being put to death, hearing Jesus’s words and actively having faith in his salvation.

A submission to a faith in providence.

a reply to: yuppa

So then a actual baptism in water is not needed then it seems. Asking and accepting jesus as your saviour,doing as you should and having faith in his words and promises works as well.

What if the mob had been pressuring you when you just heard of Christianity?

No one pressured me. all done by free will. I was born into a baptist family,but was not pressed to go to church or get dunked in the river.

Would you have had time to do all that, if the mob had been pressuring you?

Didn't the baptism impart something upon you? What if your minister had been able to rig it so that went away if you went against the mob?

This thread isn't really about the Reformation but a potential pitfall of having to use a human intercessor, though it also has advantages.

Each person is to have a INDIVIDUAL relationship,no one but Jesus is to interceed for us. no MAN can do such a thing. A preacher is not able to ask Jesus to be your saviour. thats up to YOU. I NEVER had to use a man to ask Jesus to be my saviour.

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Solvedit

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Solvedit

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Dalamax
It isn’t considered a work it is an act. An act of faith, in three parts, word thought and deed.

The thief fulfilled all three parts by being put to death, hearing Jesus’s words and actively having faith in his salvation.

A submission to a faith in providence.

a reply to: yuppa

So then a actual baptism in water is not needed then it seems. Asking and accepting jesus as your saviour,doing as you should and having faith in his words and promises works as well.

What if the mob had been pressuring you when you just heard of Christianity?

No one pressured me. all done by free will. I was born into a baptist family,but was not pressed to go to church or get dunked in the river.

Would you have had time to do all that, if the mob had been pressuring you?

Didn't the baptism impart something upon you? What if your minister had been able to rig it so that went away if you went against the mob?

This thread isn't really about the Reformation but a potential pitfall of having to use a human intercessor, though it also has advantages.

Each person is to have a INDIVIDUAL relationship,no one but Jesus is to interceed for us. no MAN can do such a thing. A preacher is not able to ask Jesus to be your saviour. thats up to YOU. I NEVER had to use a man to ask Jesus to be my saviour.

You didn't have to learn all that with the Mafia pressuring you.

You may have had a large faith community praying for you and protecting you from threats at least when you were a child learning your faith.

You might even have millenia of Christian epigenetics.

So it's not the same for you as for the early apostles.

I do think it would be great if every Christian was prepared to do as you do if necessary.