Capitalism in Russia and China and Socialism in the West

a reply to: RussianTroll

New details of torture, cover-ups in China's internment camps revealed in Amnesty International report
Chinese officials spent days burning documents after government information leaked to global media exposed conditions in the camps.

www.nbcnews.com...

Russian revenue from forced prison labor doubles in value

Published on August 11, 2023


www.freedomunited.org...

a reply to: Lazy88

Also tell me that in China they eat Christian babies and use their blood in communist rituals))))

You are sliding into medieval obscurantism!

originally posted by: RussianTroll
a reply to: Lazy88

And in the West?

Is what?

originally posted by: RussianTroll
a reply to: Lazy88

Also tell me that in China they eat Christian babies and use their blood in communist rituals))))

You are sliding into medieval obscurantism!

Funny. I provide evidence. Then you invoke propaganda?

a reply to: Lazy88

As Uriah Heep once sang, "Look at yourself"

a reply to: RussianTroll

RT, I rarely do mental rage.....and today I'm in a particularly good mood.

We'll talk tomorrow when I'll be more inclined to enter into a debate on what looks like a good OP.

za tvajó zdaróvye

Ooops - Double.

Not done that for a long time.

originally posted by: RussianTroll
a reply to: Lazy88

As Uriah Heep once sang, "Look at yourself"

You’re the one that keeps using false Russian propaganda to make threads to kiss up to Putin. Not me.

a reply to: RussianTroll

As Uriah Heep once sang, "Return to Fantasy".

a reply to: Freeborn

My friend, I call you this because I still consider you the most adequate Briton on our forum. Even despite your previous personal insults to me.
I am happy for your good mood. I am in the same mood today.
But I am not going to discuss what the British call a "good operation". Such operations usually consist of genocide of the indigenous peoples of the world. Therefore, I suggest you end the "discussion" here.

a reply to: Lazy88

Wow! It turns out that Uriah Heep songs are Russian propaganda????
But what about the Beatles?

originally posted by: RussianTroll

Some Saturday thoughts, this time about capitalism and socialism.

The major non-Western countries, such as Russia and China, have returned to healthy capitalism, and healthy capitalism has gradually pulled Russia and China to a higher technological level. For example, the planet used to buy cars in Germany, England and the USA, since, say, China could not handle the mass production of complex equipment. A German worker earned significantly more than a worker from the Third World, since the German had obvious advantages:[


Now all these advantages have evaporated. The Chinese make cars better than the Germans, and buyers vote for them en masse with their rubles not only in Russia, but also in countries that the US has not attacked. The Chinese factory has the same machine as the German one. Production in China is organized no worse. Chinese engineers are at least as good as the German ones — maybe even better. Capitalism in China is better organized than in Europe: the state rarely harasses business and more reliably protects it from external problems.

I disagree, you all are still far behind the tech curve, so you and China still wait to get leftovers from the West of what you can scam or steal. There is no innovation still with you all. As to better cars... they are better than what you all had before, and they are loaded with the tech you took from the West, but they are still a decade or more behind. I was in Australia and there is a huge Chinese influence there. Most drive Chinese cars. They have the Tesla type display, so they look higher tech, but that is about it. Auzies view the cars as cheap knockoffs that are good for maybe 2 or 3 years, so at the cheaper price that is OK, but you are not getting a 400 HP sports car, or anything fancy other than something to take you from point A to B and back.

— new advanced machines versus old primitive machines;
— good production organization versus dirt and chaos in workshops littered with garbage;
— well-designed products versus hastily stolen copies of old European products;
— disciplined educated personnel versus illiterate immigrants hammering bolts with a sledgehammer;
— a civilized capitalist market versus criminal chaos or even socialism.

All of this is either not true or just hyperbole. China is in deep crap, with upwards of 70 trillion lost in internal real estate market collapse. 800 million Chinese came up from the dirt poor off tiny farms to reach the middle class working for Western companies or supporting them in some fashion. 30 years of that saw them rise up and most dumped all their earnings into a massive real estate growth market. Well, that is all gone, the market crashed because of Ponzi schemes and other scams, and the buildings either crumbled from cheap construction within 10 years or still half completed to never be finished. Then we have whole cities no one lives in that are just a money sink on the trillion-dollar level.

The jobs are gone too as China started to play hardball and foreign investment left. 100s of millions are out of work and nowhere to go now. In Russia, you might be doing well, but 80% of Russia is not, so not as bad as China, but this war has taken its toll on you all, and you didn't have many reserves in the first place. From the time I spent in Russia, I still have friends there and they paint a much different picture than your propaganda.

It follows from this that salaries in Europe should be at least no higher than in Russia and China - otherwise the economy will not even theoretically converge, the goods will be too expensive. And this is what is happening. Russian and Chinese workers now receive higher salaries than their counterparts in the West. Hence the migration of skilled labor to the East.
For now, all of Europe is holding on to the inertia accumulated over the last century. However, Europe's business model is already hopelessly broken. There are no raw materials, no energy, no workers, no markets, no reputation, no unique technologies...

China is reaching the end of its era of cheap labor. You need to think about how it could be cheaper to manufacture in China all the way to the other side of the planet. The wages were so cheap it offset shipping around the world and still made more profit. That is all gone now and manufacturers are finding the "new" cheap labor market just like they did with Japan, then Korea, then China... it is all shifting once again. Their minimum wage is 2.5 to 3.5 dollars per hour, and in big cities like Shanghai, a really good job is around 1500 a month.

The minimum wage in Russia is 200 dollars per month so even 4 times that is a mere 800 per month, so what kind of crack are you smoking saying wages are equal to the West, or higher. The minimum wage in America and the EU is around 12 to 15+ per hour, so 4 times in China is 1500, 4 times in Russia is 800, and 4 times in the West is 8000+.

a reply to: RussianTroll

You are mistaken and are a prisoner of propaganda. ...

On the contrary; I had actually written a 2nd paragraph to my reply, but then deleted it. Basically, this 2nd paragraph stated that unions here in the US have priced their work force into extinction. Their wages are not sustainable in a free market economy. The reason I deleted this paragraph is because it leads into a discussion which is not really on-topic for your OP, and this is the discussion of what some call 'slave labor' and how this factors into economic discussions around supply and demand as well as free market economies (slaves are obviously not free...except to their master).

In any case, I think you can see I am clearly not a prisoner of any school of thought.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Just come to Russia and China and see that progress in these countries has gone far ahead of the now toxic West. Just come and compare.

a reply to: Lazy88

they do not keep failing, they ran out 18 months ago. The F-16's and Abrams tanks changed the course of history and Ukraine will me marching on Moscow any century now...

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Alas, I did not read your 2nd paragraph. Publish it. Because here there is a discussion of capitalism, which in my opinion now rules in the East, and communism, which, again in my opinion, rules in the West.

a reply to: worldstarcountry

For centuries, every 100 years, the West, guided by your slogans, attacked Russia. Each time it ended with Russian troops occupying European capitals. It's a pity that history teaches you nothing.((((

originally posted by: RussianTroll

Just come to Russia and China and see that progress in these countries has gone far ahead of the now toxic West. Just come and compare.

I am a world traveler, not on some farm in Nebraska. China has always been a country of smoke and mirrors. Look over here, but not behind the curtain.

Russia is much the same as you all say look at our few big cities, life is so good, but you still have most who do not live in the big cities and they don't have much quality of life, more just an existence. I hit you with hard numbers and you say come see our good stuff in reply...lol

You my friend have never been to America to say one way or the other...