Catch-22 and modern democracy

Hello ATS!

Today is Saturday, and I want to philosophize a little)))
In modern philosophy, there is such an absurd concept as Catch-22. What is it?

Catch-22 is a deliberately created, accidentally obtained or organically inherent in the situation legal, administrative, social or logical collision, consisting in the fact that an attempt to comply with a certain rule in itself means its violation. A person subject to such norms cannot behave expediently.

The term was introduced by the American writer Joseph Heller in the novel of the same name, published in 1961. Its plot revolves around the protagonist, bomber gunner Captain Yossarian,'s quest to circumvent the so-called Catch-22 - the absurd bureaucratic restrictions that prevent him from returning home after flying his quota of combat sorties during the Italian Campaign against German and Italian forces in 1944.

The first time the term is mentioned in the novel is by a character named Dr. Daneeka, an army doctor:

"Of course it's a trap," Daneeka replied. "And it's called Catch 22." Catch 22 says, "Anyone who tries to avoid the performance of combat duty is not truly crazy."

Yes, it was a trap. Catch 22 explained that looking out for yourself in the face of clear and present danger was common sense. Orr was crazy, and he could be excused from flying. All he had to do was ask. But the moment he asked, he would no longer be considered crazy and would be forced to fly missions again. Orr was crazy because he kept flying. He would be sane if he wanted to stop flying; but if he was sane, he had to fly. If he flew, he was crazy and therefore shouldn't fly; but if he does not want to fly, - it means he is healthy and must fly. The crystal clarity of this situation made such a deep impression on Yossarian that he whistled meaningfully."

Yes, it is a little difficult to understand, but if you think about it, our whole life and even the world order consists of such traps in almost all spheres.

On this topic, TV series were filmed and other books were written. In the West, the expression "catch-22" has become widespread in the English language.

According to James Combs and Dan Nimmo, the term Catch-22 has become widespread because ubiquitous bureaucracy has become one of the most pressing problems of modern society:

"Then anyone who has ever dealt with government understands the logic of bureaucracy in terms of Catch-22. For example, in high school or college, students may participate in student government, a form of democracy that allows them to make any decisions they want, but only as long as these decisions are approved by the principal or dean. This fictitious democracy, which can be canceled at any time by order from above, seems to be the citizen's first experience of interaction with institutions that, although they preach the values ​​of openness and freedom, are in fact closed and hierarchical systems. Catch-22 is an unwritten law that frees the institution from any form of accountability and puts the individual in the absurd position of depriving him of an understanding of the true meaning of the organization's activities."

Along with George Orwell's "doublethink" in 1984, the expression "catch-22" has become one of the most famous ways of demonstrating how difficult it is to escape from a logical trap formed by mutually exclusive rules. A similar principle was reflected in Bertrand Russell's barber paradox:

"Suppose in a village there lives a barber who shaves all the villagers who do not shave themselves, and only them. Does the barber shave himself?"

Joseph Heller stated in an interview in 1975 that the meaning of this term cannot be accurately conveyed in other languages ​​without losing the meaning. However, the meaning of this philosophical paradox was beautifully described by the Russian writer and philosopher Victor Pelevin. In his novel Emperie V, he wrote, in relation to the Western democracy being imposed on Russia:

"So, the catch-22 is as follows: no matter what words are spoken on the political stage, the very fact that a person appears on this stage proves that we have a whore and a provocateur in front of us. Because if this person were not a whore and a provocateur, no one would let him onto the political stage - there are three rings of cordon with machine guns. Elementary, Watson: if [snipped] in a brothel, it follows with a high degree of probability that we have a prostitute in front of us.

I felt offended for my generation.

"Why necessarily a prostitute," I said. "Or maybe it's a seamstress. Who just arrived from the village yesterday. And fell in love with a plumber who was repairing a shower in a brothel. And the plumber took her with him to work because she temporarily had nowhere to live. And they had a free minute there.

Samartsev raised his finger:

"This unspoken assumption is what holds the whole fragile mechanism together." our young democracy…"

In my opinion, it is said brilliantly. Take a closer look, because in reality our entire world in any sphere consists of such "Catch-22"

Thank you.

originally posted by: RussianTroll
Hello ATS!

Today is Saturday, and I want to philosophize a little)))

Catch-22

Thank you.

Is actually a book.

a reply to: RussianTroll

The term has its origins in a novel of the same name by Joseph Heller, but it has since taken on a life of its own as an idiom that describes a paradoxical situation that seems impossible to escape.


medium.com...@theintrovertalert/the-fascinating-history-and-meaning-behind-the-saying-catch-22-d895b342a1a

The book itself is more about being trapped by authority.

Like increasing bombing missions that may kill you, but if you desert because the chances are you will die you will be killed as a deserter.

Like if you don’t want to die as a Russian soldier you will be put in prison.

a reply to: RussianTroll

So? Vs what? Putin also corrupt, authoritative, ignores the rule of law where Russians are trapped.

So. Why would you take a phrase and book that was beloved by my dad’s generation.

Has very little influence on generations after me.

Present totally out of context.

A book that shows how even civilian life during WWII was militarized. WW II in the USA, military terms became commonly used by civilians because all aspects of society were thrown at the war effort. A tongue and cheek commentary on the Vietnam war. So the book resonated with people that felt trapped by the war effort. I’m sure Russia is going through something similar, but with the disgusting yoke of fighting a useless war that only benefits Putin’s oil grab and arms dealers. While young men are canon fodder. Another lost generation of men.

a reply to: RussianTroll

If you understood the book at all, you would realize it’s a protest book against stupid authoritarian rulers like Putin. And their useless wars.

a reply to: Lazy88

The Russians have a proverb: "A fool hears the ringing, but does not know where it is." The post is not about your perception of the book, but about a phenomenon that has been given philosophical explanations from various sources. I'm sorry that you have such a primitive perception, although this is typical of Western "snowflakes".

a reply to: RussianTroll

The Russians have a proverb: "A fool hears the ringing, but does not know where it is."

Might be the incoming ATACM or HIMARS.

a reply to: RussianTroll

No, RT, the only corollary which can be drawn from Catch-22 as it relates to modern democracy is there are those who wish such things to be true, when they are in fact false.

Creating a Catch-22 like environment in a constitutional republic is an intentional act to confuse people and make them feel like they have no logical decision to make. This is a false truth. This is a tactic used by the democrats to foil their members who are smart enough to use their brain's for critical thinking. It forces them to believe they have no choice but to blindly follow, when they do in fact have a choice, but it's not the choice their party desires. In fact, it is the exact opposite choice from what their party desires. This cannot be allowed to be a choice at all, and thus the deliberate invocation of a perceived Catch-22 situation.

Ironically, you, RT, should be familiar with what I am saying more than anyone. Your leader and your government uses these exact tactics all the time on the Russian people. Your whole world is a Catch-22, but it doesn't have to be.

You see, we DO have a choice, and there is no Catch-22. There are only those who wish more than anything for there to be a Catch-22 where they can obfuscate the truth. Where they can create a perceived barrier between the people and the truth. That barrier is not real, only perceived. And, those who believe these barriers are real are people who will willingly "submit" to being enslaved by their government.

It's a mind-game, RT, one you above all should be very wary of.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I agree with you, my friend, in the first part of your post.
However, don't you think that the confidence of some Western people in the "nightmares" that are supposedly happening in Russia is precisely the result of Catch 22, applied to them by Western propaganda?
I have always written that it is better to see once than to hear or read 100 times. Come to Russia, look around, talk to people, and perhaps you will change your opinion to the opposite. Welcome!

originally posted by: RussianTroll
a reply to: Lazy88

The Russians have a proverb: "A fool hears the ringing, but does not know where it is." The post is not about your perception of the book, but about a phenomenon that has been given philosophical explanations from various sources. I'm sorry that you have such a primitive perception, although this is typical of Western "snowflakes".

I’m literally telling you the context of the book and why it was important to my dad’s generation because of the Vietnam war. You are just clueless as ever.

a reply to: RussianTroll

I have no doubt whatsoever there is much misinformation concerning Russian society here in the US. You will get no argument from me on that point. And, I have been to Russia personally (St. Petersburg and Volograd), although it was years ago now. I am not influenced by other's opinions, I form my own based on objective research. I would love to return to Russia someday and have every intention of doing exactly this. And, I would particularly like to explore eastern Russia and Siberia in great detail. It is rich in culture and natural beauty.

Overall, I have a very high opinion of Russia, always have. My opinion of your leadership is not as favorable, particularly now, but that doesn't make me dislike the Russian people as a whole. Quite the contrary. The words I wrote in my previous post are merely a caution to native Russians who live everyday under the rule of the current leadership.

BTW - My sister has her PhD (doctorate degree) in Russian history. So, I'm a lot more familiar with Russia than you may have known.

Here's a catch 22 in relation to American Democracy.

Tolerance, integration and patriotism.

It's the 1950's.
Let's say a bunch of communists move in down the street. The neighborhood watch dislikes communists so much that they turn into fascists trying to run them out of the neighborhood.

Now that the neighborhood is fascist, they no longer abide by the rules and freedoms of the America they thought they loved above all else.

The neighborhood watch (McCarthyism) ends up destroying what it is to be America in an effort to "cleanse it".

a reply to: TinfoilTophat

Do you even know what a fascist even is? I doubt it. You liberals use 'fascist' to describe anything you don't like.

Also, nice twisting of: Diversity, Equity and Inclusion!! LOL!!

What, now you don't even like your own party's mantra??

a reply to: RussianTroll

I haven't read Empire V, but I looked it up in Wikipedia.

What comes to my mind is something like this:


Description "Buy #!" by Sr. X, a street artist from Spain, painted on a billboard @ The Village Underground in Shoreditch
Date 29 September 2017, 13:43
Source I feel like a mushroom..
Author Loco Steve from Bromley , UK
creativecommons.org...

It is a criticism of consumerism rather than a criticism of democracy.

The current capitalist system is driven by consumption. For stock market indexes to rise, consumption must rise to drive it. For consumption to rise, either consumers must consume more or more consumers must be added. For production to rise in either case, more workers are required.

Population must rise.

result: Over population, immigration wars, resource wars, all amidst human caused climate change, reduction of productive crop lands.

Catch-22: To sustain current capitalism we must live in an increasingly unsustainable manner.

It will come to an end.

But until then, the fat cats will continue to grow fatter.

a reply to: RussianTroll

I read the book many years ago.

It's a tragic satire about military madness.

There's a lot of that about at the moment.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

I seem to recall reading it in standard-grade class English back in the day.

And then again in my early 20s.

Think i have a copy lying around in a cupboard somewhere.

To me it was about Yossarian trying to stay alive amidst the madness of war.

And about the absurdity of military bureaucracy.

A good read if a bit bonkers.

They did a miniseries based on the title not that long ago if memory serves.

a reply to: andy06shake

Didn't like the film, or the mini series.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

I dont think many people liked the mini-series much.

The movie i can take or leave.

a reply to: andy06shake

Didn't like the film M*A*S*H either. Loved the series.

But I'm just a grumpy old man.

Harrumph.