Stonehenge offers up a new Mystery - The Altar Stone

originally posted by: strongfp
Tens of thousands is s bit of a stretch in terms of megalithic masonry. But I get your point.

Megalithic masonry represents the culmination of knowledge that took a couple of million years - or thereabouts - to develop. I think the earliest hammer stone and anvil set is about 1.75 million years ago, or was the last time I checked. From there we get more and more adept at selecting and shaping stone to our needs, of utilisng the properties of different kind of stones for different tasks, as well as simply selecting them for the aesthetic qualities, as evident in axe heads believed to have been used as tribute being exchanged over long distances.

Quarrying large stones only requires applying the knowledge of the micro to the macro. Exploiting fissures. Using leverage, wedges and fire-starting - it's the moving it that is the real technological development of the time and one we are still trying to pin down of course - and that must have required, or had to wait for, amongst other things, the fibre technology to reach a point where ropes could be produced that would be up to the task (which took around 40,000 years alone), and probably, the bronze axes required to cut enough wood to build a raft substantial enough to transport the altar stone.

originally posted by: strongfp
The conflicting evidence to the glacier theory is that where the "blue stones" are hypothesized to come from in Wales have shown large feasts and festivals, suggesting there were large gatherings, with plenty of calories to fuel people to cut out and drag large stones.

Having now read the paper, they rule out a glacially propelled movement of the "altar" stone. There is little support such movements. Still up in the air with the blue stones it seems and the pattern of glaciation better supports it. I am interested to know when it was moved there, that could tell us more about it's meaning or significance. Given that it is almost totally buried, it would be good to know what is underneath it, if anything, but it could help date it's placement there if nothing else.

The bronze age, and the cauldron, really enabled, like never before, an ability to feed large groups of people conveniently.

originally posted by: strongfp
The tribal angle is important tho, as it indicates there must have been a sort of royal figures for all the tirbes to congregate, I can't imagine they were just naturally egalitarian to meet up and move large rocks just for the sake of it.

I think we have a tendency to under estimate these beginnings of social technology, it, today, completely dominates our existence, it has completely shaped our behaviours and as such we take these things for granted. Leadership, on a tribal level, is usually meritocratic (though what has merit may vary according to society). By the Bronze Age you have a hierarchy that is increasingly based upon material wealth and more specifically, on control of resources.

When the stone was brought down from Scotland could tell us one thing. When it was buried, and on what it is buried, could tell us something else.

originally posted by: sapien1982
but what of the ley lines ? thats the thing that really does puzzle me all these standing stones are on ley lines
and the ley lines go from volcanic plug to volcanic plug etc.
ludovic mann wrote about them a lot and states that Glasgow was even founded on the ley lines

people always go on about tartarian mud flood and lost tech , if your looking for auld tech then why not look towards the stones and the ley lines , ive heard from someone on ATS that the leys are actually just dormant and need repaired "activated" so to speak. but this grid is built upon a much older grid

I don't know about Ley Lines. The concept emerged at a time when we were drawing straight lines between places so we could take measurements as we mapped the world. Ley Lines, seem to me, an attempt to bring a similar sense of order to our ancient landscape. If there is any basis in Ley Lines, I don't think that it was something that the people who constructed Stone Henge were consciously aware of or played a significant role in their decision-making. Although, of course, the geology itself did but that they were able to see quite clearly with their eyes.

www.theguardian.com...

getoutside.ordnancesurvey.co.uk...

The relationship of Stone Henge to the Ridgeway, that gleaming white chalk, the softly rolling, grass covered hills. From the North of England, you can follow that chalk all the way to Stone Henge, though it is not always visible on the surface. It represents to meeting of many paths, some of them extending all the way into Europe and on which goods were traded and exchanged.

www.hiddenea.com...

www.english-heritage.org.uk...

en.wikipedia.org...

That chalk also bears flint outcroppings, the plastic of the Neolithic. The presence of chalk, and therefore flint, would have been an essential factor in the reasons why the landscape had import to them. As metal replaced flint, it's original meaning was lost but it's reverence, in the landscape remained, and the paths cut through it, were still as easy to find, even in the dark.

originally posted by: sapien1982
a reply to: BrucellaOrchitis

Id never thought of that before , its a meeting point of the tribes who have joined a Union
or pact of self defense or something , and they each bring a stone to the circle and they lay the stone
they raise the stones together in a ceremony of union
and this is where they meet to discuss their issues or agree to unite and go to war with a neighbouring enemy.

I have similar thoughts - It's an incredible feat of engineering without the transporting of tonnes of stones from 100s of miles away.

I don't know much/anything about tribes in pre-Roman times but this must have taken huge co-operation and some strong form of alliance between them, sharing of tech, resources, food etc and incredible planning over 100s of years.

I'm not sure on the glacier theory - they may have helped transport some distance but as far as I'm aware glaciers didn't go much further than the Lancs/Cumbria border or North Yorkshire and Scottish glaciers moved east to west depositing stone into the sea but I may be wrong on that.

a reply to: gortex


Fourty something years ago at my work I was shown the basics of dowsing for water using rods , this old croft /farm house had been built over a stream as was common back then and in the middle of this house I was handed this fist size really heavy black Rock which I thought was a lump of coal but i was informed it was a piece of African heart wood front a knot in the tree .

I did as instructed with this weird plumb bob at the top of this step ladder and as soon as I came near this underground stream this really heavy plumb bob became weightless and moved about easily and that thing weighed about a pound but over water or running water became weightless .

The ancients were anything but stupid IMHO just look what you can do with beetle wings m.youtube.com...

originally posted by: bastion
I have similar thoughts - It's an incredible feat of engineering without the transporting of tonnes of stones from 100s of miles away.

A study of the building of the Menga Dolmen, around Malaga in Spain, has also recently been published.

The new study described the Menga Dolmen as a one-of-a-kind example of “creative genius” and “early science” in a Neolithic society, a time when agriculture recently was adopted as a way of life and tools were made largely of stone and other natural materials rather than metal, and no written language existed.

“You see that these people knew about physics, friction, angles. They knew about geology. They knew the properties of the rocks, they knew about geometry,“ García Sanjuán said.

“Put these things together (and) what do you have? We have to call it science. We’ve never talked about Neolithic science before only because we are too arrogant to think that these people could do science the way we do it.”

“If any engineer today tried to build Menga with the resources that existed 6,000 years ago, I don’t think they could do it.”

shorturl.at...

Very different structure to Stonehenge, but clearly demonstrates that they knew what they were doing, and did have a plan which they acted intentionally to achieve. There is nothing ad hoc going on here. Planning, but also, organisation and command of a labour force. There are indications that these skills were developed through hunting, particularly mammoth, so would have been part and parcel of the tool-kit that the farmers brought with them as they spread out from Anatolia across Europe.

originally posted by: bastion
I don't know much/anything about tribes in pre-Roman times but this must have taken huge co-operation and some strong form of alliance between them, sharing of tech, resources, food etc and incredible planning over 100s of years.

Lots of cultures came and went before the arrival of the Romans - and after of course.

The farmers that built the various henges that dot the British isles, Europe and elsewhere, shared a common heritage and culture. The Mesolithic culture that their arrival displaced though was also capable of combined and organised actions, they just used wood rather than stone to construct with.

www.starcarr.com...

If ancient human knew how to transport these stones, why would every society choose to build structures that do not seem to serve basic needs, like food, shelter, transportation and protection from enemies.

And it seems like such an important skill not to pass down through the generations?

All of the world, you have people getting this super useful skills and not using it for anything to keep them alive? And not even one of these communities decided to pass this information down to at least a few generations?

a reply to: stonerwilliam

Hey it was david cowans channel about ley lines and how to amplify them that I discovered he uses dowsing rods to map them
and suggest they are built upon volcanic dykes, fissures and volcanic plugs and these emit geomagnetic energy


warning loud sheep and wind noises haha

he did another video about it as well
with odd robot ai scots voice


from these videos I learned about harry bell and he also wrote about ludovicc mann

I then read his writing here

Ludovic Mann - writings

originally posted by: sapien1982
I then read his writing here

Ludovic Mann - writings

You might enjoy Julian Cope's perspective;

a reply to: BrucellaOrchitis

Julian Cope is a legend of a man.
He does everything his way and I admire the level of commitment, effort and passion he puts into things.

Sure, there's one or two things I may not entirely agree with him on but he certainly puts reasoned and intelligent arguments forward.

Thanks for posting that.

a reply to: BrucellaOrchitis
Thanks mate

I'll watch that the noo

first thing he says , we literally have thousands of years of history right on our door step.
He is right as well , in Glasgow where I live there are neolithic stones all over the shop
at the camphill in queens park I can see the flag pole on the hill from my living room window
you dont have to travel far in Great Britian to travel into the past its amazing.
We really are so lucky if you love history and live in the UK

I have no theories but I'm glad this is top thread.

THIS kind of discussion is more ATS than all the politcial nonsense.

I'm so happy to just read this thread.

I'm reminded of the anicent tools found embedded in stone without explaination.

a reply to: sapien1982

Its a good watch mate and Julian Cope's enthusiasm is infectious.
I've always meant to read his books but simply never got round to it.....I'll have to make sure I fix that.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: sapien1982

Its good watch mate and Julian Cope's enthusiasm is infectious.
I've always meant to read his books but simply never got round to it.....I'll have to make sure I fix that.

Definately recommend his autobiography (head on/repossessed) - bought it on a whim decades ago despite not knowing much of his music and it's an excellent read covering some crazy adventures, obsessions and recovery. Certainly worth every penny and read it dozens of times over the years.

a reply to: bastion

Thanks for the heads up.

I was going to try The Modern Antiquarian first....I'll probably have a look around and buy both.
I usually have two or three books on the go at the same time so all should be good.

@15:00 in the video he is talking about the mythology of Long Meg, they said that if the stones were to be removed they would bleed he then goes on to say that the farmer tried to remove them at one point and there was a huge thunder clap and lightning strike and it scared off all the workers and so they remained.

Now that got me thinking about the energy again

what if these stones act as some sort of atmospheric control , by grounding the natural build up of energies in the atmosphere.
perhaps at one point great britian was just wild storms and lightning and then they built the stone circles to calm it down and these geomagnetic energies are emitted from volcanic fissues dykes and plugs

a reply to: Freeborn

Agreed he has great energy in telling the stories and history of these places.
Never heard of the guy before
so that will definitely be something to look into with regards to his books.

originally posted by: sapien1982
@15:00 in the video he is talking about the mythology of Long Meg, they said that if the stones were to be removed they would bleed he then goes on to say that the farmer tried to remove them at one point and there was a huge thunder clap and lightning strike and it scared off all the workers and so they remained.

Now that got me thinking about the energy again

what if these stones act as some sort of atmospheric control , by grounding the natural build up of energies in the atmosphere.
perhaps at one point great britian was just wild storms and lightning and then they built the stone circles to calm it down and these geomagnetic energies are emitted from volcanic fissues dykes and plugs

I think with the Long Meg story that it's a good story to tell to the grand-kids but most likely those workers never wanted to move those stones and they feigned superstition to avoid it. I also though believe they were motivated by a desire for the stones to stay as they were, where they felt they belonged for reasons that the land-owner would never have been able to understand.

However, you might be interested in this

www.theguardian.com...

a reply to: stonerwilliam

Some water companies in the UK still use dowsing rods to detect leaks even though scientist don't believe it works.

Thames Water and Severn Trent Water are still use dowsing rods to detect leaks despite scientific studies showing that the method is ineffective.

A 2017 investigation found that 10 out of 12 water companies were regularly using water dowsing to detect leaks, prompting criticism from some academics that regulators should step in to stop the practice of “witchcraft” at customers’ cost.
www.newscientist.com...

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: stonerwilliam

Some water companies in the UK still use dowsing rods to detect leaks even though scientist don't believe it works.

Thames Water and Severn Trent Water are still use dowsing rods to detect leaks despite scientific studies showing that the method is ineffective.

A 2017 investigation found that 10 out of 12 water companies were regularly using water dowsing to detect leaks, prompting criticism from some academics that regulators should step in to stop the practice of “witchcraft” at customers’ cost.
www.newscientist.com...

There is a link in the article you link to the following article:

www.theguardian.com...

The academics complaining, particularly Le Page are hilarious, I wonder if they think specialist dowsers are brought in just to find leaks, instead of, as seems to be the case, when all else fails some of their regular employees bring out the dowsing rods.

The satellite technology that is able to detect leaks of drinking water due to it's chlorine radiation signal sounds a lot more effective though - if considerably less wholesome.

a reply to: BrucellaOrchitis

I think id seen this before but it was a study from st andrews or something

funny my auntie sent me a picture this morning of her and her grandkids at stonehenge