Thousands Of Young Ukrainian Men Trying To Flee The Country To Avoid Conscription And The War

$300 million from our pockets to Ukraine border patrol, to (in part) keep young men from escaping the meat grinder by going over the border into Poland.

Source: twitter.com...

originally posted by: WeMustCare
$300 million from our pockets to Ukraine border patrol, to (in part) keep young men from escaping the meat grinder by going over the border into Poland.

Source: twitter.com...

Unbelievable and unacceptable!

Young men on both sides (and women) have had enough and they don't want to die or get seriously injured in a senseless war.

I know the west is trying to use this as a proxy war against Russia but the two countries must come to an agreement and stop all hostilities.

originally posted by: Consvoli
This is a terrible civil war and the west should have never intervened prolonging the fight but intervene to stop it.

This is NOT a civil war. This is one sovreign nation invading a second sovreign nation. Calling it a civil war is restating russian propaganda.

originally posted by: Consvoli

You are going in cycles trying to justify the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. They were illegal and destabilised entire areas and destroyed these countries for good. This is something you need to admit.

I guess you do not read my posts, I said I disagreed with them, so not sure what you are trying to debate me about. Also, illegal by what?

The Russian-Ukraine is a civil war. Two countries - yes. But the same people, brothers and sisters fighting a senseless war. That's not just my opinion. It's about time the war comes to an end, in fact wars don't last forever.

It seems you are the one going in circles to justify Russia invading another country. Ukraine didn't ask for this war, Ukraine has nothing to gain either.

originally posted by: Consvoli
This is a terrible civil war ...

No it is not. Russia invaded a sovereign nation.
Ukraine is NOT part of Russia.
It is NOT a civil war.
That's Russian propaganda.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: Consvoli
This is a terrible civil war ...

No it is not. Russia invaded a sovereign nation.
Ukraine is NOT part of Russia.
It is NOT a civil war.
That's Russian propaganda.

Although I don't agree with the invasion and the war the fight is between Russians and Russians or Russians and Russian related people. Civil war in this manner.

Brothers and sisters fighting each other and the west tries to take advantage of it and have a proxy war against Russia.

The war must stop and not prolonged and the thousands of Ukrainians (and Russians on the other side) who don't want to fight is proof this isn't going anywhere and people don't want it anymore.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Consvoli

You are going in cycles trying to justify the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. They were illegal and destabilised entire areas and destroyed these countries for good. This is something you need to admit.

I guess you do not read my posts, I said I disagreed with them, so not sure what you are trying to debate me about. Also, illegal by what?

The Russian-Ukraine is a civil war. Two countries - yes. But the same people, brothers and sisters fighting a senseless war. That's not just my opinion. It's about time the war comes to an end, in fact wars don't last forever.

It seems you are the one going in circles to justify Russia invading another country. Ukraine didn't ask for this war, Ukraine has nothing to gain either.

I was against the invasion just as I am against the prolongation of the war. Your post is disingenuous because I have stated it so many times on this thread.

Speaking of invasions the US cannot be a moral compass after it has invaded or intervened in a number of countries which either ended up in a civil war or completely destabilised and destroyed. Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam and Korea earlier (some examples). With two huge defeats in Vietnam and Korea and significant loses everywhere else.

originally posted by: Consvoli
the fight is between Russians and Russians or Russians and Russian related people. Civil war in this manner.

Nope. It's between Ukraine and Russia.
It doesn't matter if your ancestor shared any heritage.
It doesn't matter if some share the same language.
This is two separate countries.

originally posted by: Consvoli

Speaking of invasions the US cannot be a moral compass after it has invaded or intervened in a number of countries which either ended up in a civil war or completely destabilised and destroyed. Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam and Korea earlier (some examples). With two huge defeats in Vietnam and Korea and significant loses everywhere else.

Really don't care. BTW who can be a moral compass, Russia? I really do not know the argument you are trying to make with me. I don't speak for America so maybe talk to old Joe on that. What is you point above, or are you just going to repeat the same lines?

In this case, Russia is the invader, so everything you are complaining about America is what Russia just did and you are then saying oh that is OK, but America sucks.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Consvoli

Speaking of invasions the US cannot be a moral compass after it has invaded or intervened in a number of countries which either ended up in a civil war or completely destabilised and destroyed. Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam and Korea earlier (some examples). With two huge defeats in Vietnam and Korea and significant loses everywhere else.

Really don't care. BTW who can be a moral compass, Russia? I really do not know the argument you are trying to make with me. I don't speak for America so maybe talk to old Joe on that. What is you point above, or are you just going to repeat the same lines?

In this case, Russia is the invader, so everything you are complaining about America is what Russia just did and you are then saying oh that is OK, but America sucks.

None of them is a moral compass.
On the other hand the war must finish and must not be exploited by the west.

I recognise what Russia did and want the war to end together with thousands and thousands of Russians and Ukrainians.

You want the war to continue as a proxy war against Russia but it's not your kids or grandkids who are going to die in the war.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: Consvoli
the fight is between Russians and Russians or Russians and Russian related people. Civil war in this manner.

Nope. It's between Ukraine and Russia.
It doesn't matter if your ancestor shared any heritage.
It doesn't matter if some share the same language.
This is two separate countries.

You are entitled to your opinion.
I m calling it a civil war.

That's not the main problem but how people see this war. It has come to the point where Ukrainians and Russians don't want to fight anymore.

a reply to: Consvoli

It has come to the point where Ukrainians and Russians don't want to fight anymore.

Contrary to your hippie ideals, the show goes on. The people you naively call brothers and sisters fight to the death. And this is brutal.

Putin wants the war to continue, he increased the production of ammunition and is sending more and more troops to Ukraine. The whole economy is in the service of the war. Nothing could be further from the truth that the Ukrainians and the Russians don't want to fight. Even if some don't, the majority does. The most volunteers in the Russian army are men from the poor regions of Russia. They join because they need money. They kill, rob and rape.

The atrocities of Russians in Ukraine are well documented. This is the invasion, not a civil war. I want to remind you that Russia was one of the first countries to recognize Ukraine's independence and its borders in 1991. Other countries did it too. So civil war it is not. The example of the civil war was the war between Russia and Chechnya as they both are parts of the Russian Federation.

Calling something that is not a civil war a civil war is not the matter of semantics or preferences. It is the prime example of ignorance. You're showing everyone here that you don't even know what a civil war is.

originally posted by: Consvoli

You want the war to continue as a proxy war against Russia but it's not your kids or grandkids who are going to die in the war.

I want Russia to get the hell out of Ukraine. They have the power to stop the war any minute. They are not forced to fight, and they have killed more and done more damage than the US in 20 years of war in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

originally posted by: Consvoli

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Consvoli

Every war has objectives and Russia had an objective from the beginning to 'liberate' the 'occupied' territories. They were never planning to occupy Ukraine as a whole. It doesn't make any difference if we don't agree with what they did but the war has finished. Any prolongation of the war comes is a responsibility of all sides including the west.

I disagree, Russia has not come forward with lines drawn saying we will stop here to end the fighting. The last time they talked there was no give or take, just take on the Russian side.


The area they want is also the largest natural gas fields in the EU, oil, massive mineral resources and agriculture. It will cut off most of Ukraine from the Black Sea too. We need to understand that Russia's goal was always to take the whole country. That is why they called it a fascist state and the only way to get rid of it would be to take it all. By taking it all it would directly open up the EU by land to them for economics and military objectives.

I don't think, and there is no much evidence, Russia wants the entire region of Ukraine. But on the other hand Ukraine was always closely linked to Russia. The Russians started their journey in history with Kiev which was the first capital of Rus country. Ukrainians and Russians are brothers and sisters and not as it is portrayed in the western media. This is a terrible civil war and the west should have never intervened prolonging the fight but intervene to stop it.

Excellent post. From the beginning Russias goal was to liberate the occupied areas in the East like the Donbas, to get rid of the Ukrainian Nationalist forces that were attacking these areas in the east and for an overall Regime change in Ukraine.

This is indeed a civil War between the 2 countries. This coming from someone with close intimate knowledge of the countries.

The Western media is now so bias they don't tell the truth about Eastern Ukraine. Here's an article from the Washington post from about 4 years ago with regards to Crimea and Russia, how the Crimeans wanted to join Russia in 2014 and still were happy in 2020 and Russia was investing in the infrastructure in Crimea, something the Ukrainian government wouldn't do for Crimea because they knew the people there were Ethnic Russian for the most part. Nowadays you will never see an article like this coming from a source like the Washington Post.


www.washingtonpost.com...

originally posted by: WeMustCare
$300 million from our pockets to Ukraine border patrol, to (in part) keep young men from escaping the meat grinder by going over the border into Poland.

Source: twitter.com...

Ya can you imagine that the US investing $300 million into Ukraines Western border security to keep Ukrainians INSIDE the country while the US still. Has minimal security protecting the southern border as millions of people from all over the world enter the US WITH A GOOD chunk of them being gotaways?

How does that make any sense?

originally posted by: twistedpuppy
a reply to: Consvoli

It has come to the point where Ukrainians and Russians don't want to fight anymore.

Contrary to your hippie ideals, the show goes on. The people you naively call brothers and sisters fight to the death. And this is brutal.

Putin wants the war to continue, he increased the production of ammunition and is sending more and more troops to Ukraine. The whole economy is in the service of the war. Nothing could be further from the truth that the Ukrainians and the Russians don't want to fight. Even if some don't, the majority does. The most volunteers in the Russian army are men from the poor regions of Russia. They join because they need money. They kill, rob and rape.

The atrocities of Russians in Ukraine are well documented. This is the invasion, not a civil war. I want to remind you that Russia was one of the first countries to recognize Ukraine's independence and its borders in 1991. Other countries did it too. So civil war it is not. The example of the civil war was the war between Russia and Chechnya as they both are parts of the Russian Federation.

Calling something that is not a civil war a civil war is not the matter of semantics or preferences. It is the prime example of ignorance. You're showing everyone here that you don't even know what a civil war is.

Yes because civil wars tend to be the most brutal if you haven't realised.

American Civil War for example

nationalinterest.org...

Take a look at the brutality and atrocities committed in civil wars.

originally posted by: TheMisguidedAngel

originally posted by: Consvoli

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Consvoli

Every war has objectives and Russia had an objective from the beginning to 'liberate' the 'occupied' territories. They were never planning to occupy Ukraine as a whole. It doesn't make any difference if we don't agree with what they did but the war has finished. Any prolongation of the war comes is a responsibility of all sides including the west.

I disagree, Russia has not come forward with lines drawn saying we will stop here to end the fighting. The last time they talked there was no give or take, just take on the Russian side.


The area they want is also the largest natural gas fields in the EU, oil, massive mineral resources and agriculture. It will cut off most of Ukraine from the Black Sea too. We need to understand that Russia's goal was always to take the whole country. That is why they called it a fascist state and the only way to get rid of it would be to take it all. By taking it all it would directly open up the EU by land to them for economics and military objectives.

I don't think, and there is no much evidence, Russia wants the entire region of Ukraine. But on the other hand Ukraine was always closely linked to Russia. The Russians started their journey in history with Kiev which was the first capital of Rus country. Ukrainians and Russians are brothers and sisters and not as it is portrayed in the western media. This is a terrible civil war and the west should have never intervened prolonging the fight but intervene to stop it.

Excellent post. From the beginning Russias goal was to liberate the occupied areas in the East like the Donbas, to get rid of the Ukrainian Nationalist forces that were attacking these areas in the east and for an overall Regime change in Ukraine.

This is indeed a civil War between the 2 countries. This coming from someone with close intimate knowledge of the countries.

The Western media is now so bias they don't tell the truth about Eastern Ukraine. Here's an article from the Washington post from about 4 years ago with regards to Crimea and Russia, how the Crimeans wanted to join Russia in 2014 and still were happy in 2020 and Russia was investing in the infrastructure in Crimea, something the Ukrainian government wouldn't do for Crimea because they knew the people there were Ethnic Russian for the most part. Nowadays you will never see an article like this coming from a source like the Washington Post.


www.washingtonpost.com...

I know both Russians and Ukrainians and there are no differences between them apart from religion being either orthodox or catholic.

Most people on both sides the last thing they wanted is to fight in a senseless civil war. The west has been trying to use this as a proxy war against Russia and most sensible people should be against such task.

originally posted by: Consvoli
I know both Russians and Ukrainians and there are no differences between them apart from religion being either orthodox or catholic.

The difference is that one is a Russian and the other is a Ukrainian. They are from different countries.

There isn't much of a difference between a Canadian and an American. Same culture. Same language. Same religions. Same general physical features. Same continent. Same type of government more or less. Many Canadians have relatives in America, and viseversa. That doesn't mean they are the same country and that doesn't mean that it would be a 'civil war' if war broke out between them.

Curious. What country are you from Consvoli?

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: Consvoli
I know both Russians and Ukrainians and there are no differences between them apart from religion being either orthodox or catholic.

The difference is that one is a Russian and the other is a Ukrainian. They are from different countries.

There isn't much of a difference between a Canadian and an American. Same culture. Same language. Same religions. Same general physical features. Same continent. Same type of government more or less. Many Canadians have relatives in America, and viseversa. That doesn't mean they are the same country and that doesn't mean that it would be a 'civil war' if war broke out between them.

Curious. What country are you from Consvoli?

Two different countries but the same people. You know civil wars are very brutal not to say the most brutal.

Your example is ideal. Americans and Canadians who are the same people but two different countries. Imagine the US trying to invade or let's say invade Canada? The US has invaded and started wars with so many countries and nothing seems impossible in the future.

Are you implying I am Russian?!
To answer your question I am not Russian.

originally posted by: Consvoli
. Americans and Canadians who are the same people but two different countries..

And therefore a war between them would not be a civil war.
And neither is a war between Ukraine and Russia.