Otto von Bismarck about Russia and Ukraine

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a reply to: twistedpuppy

Do you seriously believe I would waste my time getting into a debate with the likes of you, when I'm outnumbered by poisoned moralists who will just gang up on me and wear me out in the end? And you seem to the most hostile and intolerable of them all, there is a noticeable lack of respect.

I left this place because it was awful, the political side of this forum has increasingly become a den of the same regular/active posters reinforcing each other's perceptions, the loudmouths are running wild here with no oversight from its questionable owners. I'm relieved there's still some mods sticking around who help maintain the peace.

"By whom?" The user WanderingMrM, who used to post updates in Dreams & Predictions.

"Out of all of your bogus claims you've written so far this is the most ignorant one." Take that up with him, not me. Or better yet, take it up with Cheiro.

Because Cheiro, who was a famous palm-reader and exceptional clairvoyant, who had the privilege of meeting some of the most famous historical persons, who some of the most powerful and influential people sought out in the cover of secrecy to have their palms read by him, and who enjoyed unprecedented success, had said the exact same thing about Russia.

His biography: horusastropalmist.wordpress.com...

From his book World Predictions, p.g. 44-45:

The ignorance of Europe as a whole in connection with what they have always called “the Great Bear” is incomprehensible. Since the time of the Saracen Invaders this vast Asiatic Empire has been regarded by one and all as some mystery land to be plundered or pillaged at the will of any adventurer who could find enough backing for the enterprise.
An example may be taken of the disastrous attempt made by the “great” Napoleon in his march on Moscow. The appalling destruction of property, carnage, and loss of human life that followed did not teach European nations the lesson they might have learned. There is not a single country in Europe that has not attempted at some time or another to exploit the untold riches of Russia. As if some mysterious Fate with jealous eyes watched to defeat scheme after scheme to bring away the Russian wealth, it has been one long history of wasted effort and useless endeavour.

And his most ominous prediction for the future: "A new idea of Government will little by little spread from this country, which will completely revolutionise Europe, Asia, and the Far East, and Russia will become the most powerful nation in the history of modern civilisation."

These were weighty words uttered by one of the most famous Americans in history.
Whatever one thinks of the methods he used to arrive at his predictions, his other books are full of rich experiences and extraordinary insights. If one wishes to help thwart his prophecy, then one ought to at least familiarize themselves with his works.

"There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (Shakespeare)

originally posted by: twistedpuppy
Are you going to step into Lenin's shoes and try to rewrite Russia's history.

Neither Marx nor Lenin rewrote Russia's history, that distinction belongs to Stalin. But how is this any different from what Napoleon tried to do with his memoirs? History is full of revisions. I'm surprised you didn't start with Stalin, the fact that you began with Lenin instead informs me that you are not arguing with the best of intentions.

"They are trampling on Stalin in order to get at Lenin. And some people are even starting after Lenin. They say Stalin is his continuator." (Molotov)

"First, Stalin is disowned, now, little by little, it gets to prosecute socialism, the October Revolution, and in no time they will also want to prosecute Lenin and Marx." (Kaganovich)

originally posted by: twistedpuppy
I guess, just like Lenin, you can't stomach Russian Tsars and their filthy imperialism, can you?

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I strongly identify as a Bolshevik. It's not the communist system which concerns me, I'm not interested in rehabilitating communism. It was their ideas and principles, and above all, Soviet heroes, which was my reason for aligning with Bolsheviks.

Lenin was a product of his times, as was Stalin. Evelyn Wade, the wife of Alfred North Whitehead, points out, "Lenin being a revolted aristocrat, had it in for his class, as such rebel sons usually do. But Stalin is a man of the people and much more representative."

Btw Lenin did not order the Tsar family executions, he wanted to use them as leverage for bargaining.

originally posted by: twistedpuppy
So you chose to ignore the wars with the Ottoman Empire which resulted in Russia obtaining large swaths of land in Asia and Europe, the partition of Poland, incorporation of Finland and the colonial expansion in Asia and North America.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about the social conditions for this chapter of Russian history to offer any input. I'll let an actual Russian handle it.

But I will add that anyone who has not read Georg Brandes' biography of Voltaire remains ignorant of the social conditions which serve as the backdrop for Russia's expansion in the early 19th century.

“If they fail to understand these conditions and try to alter them according to the promptings of their imagination, they will land themselves in the situation of Don Quixote.” (Stalin)

originally posted by: twistedpuppy
Not that the Soviets dismissed imperialism altogether if we recall their march into the West in 1920. And of course the infamous pact Ribbentrop Molotov.

I don't have the time to go down this rabbit hole, even actual communists are growing tired of it by now.

originally posted by: twistedpuppy
Bulls**t. Nationalism in Russia has always had an imperial character.

Are you blind? When did I even mention "Russia" in that sentence? When did I try to excuse Russian nationalism? I conceived my statement as a general observational statement. You have completely misunderstood what I was trying to say, clouded in judgment by your obsessive hatred for all things Russian.

“It doesn't stem from fear and it never stemmed from fear but rather from the conviction that Russia has a special messianic destiny to dominate in Asia and Europe and expand its territory.”

books.google.com...

The United States was ignoring Moscow's legitimate security anxieties, and the Soviets now seemed to feel they could be secure only by dominating Eastern Europe. Lippmann believed that the Russians had real anxieties about their security, particularly with regard to Germany, and that American policy was intensifying those anxieties. (source: Walter Lippmann and the American Century by Ronald Steel)

What was the Cold War really? A deterioration between state relations.
What was the Cold War atmosphere like? Fear and suspicion.

"Lately I've been thinking that the cold war is almost worse for art than the real thing—for it permeates the atmosphere with fear and anxiety." (Aaron Copland)

It is precisely fear and mistrust of other nations, especially Russophobia, which has brought mankind to the brink of another world war. If this fear was eliminated, people would still be proud of their nation and boast that their country was the best, but they certainly wouldn't start wars over it.
_____

It was evident in Pan-Slavic movement, the desire to unite all Slavs under the Russian rule, the theory of All Russian Nation and calling Russian Empire the Third Rome.

According to communist Milovan Djalas, his longing to return to his ancestral lands in Russia ran deeper than both Pan-Slavism and Communism:

“I had never had any Pan-Slavic feelings, nor did I look upon Moscow’s Pan-Slavic ideas at that time as anything but a manoeuvre for mobilizing conservative forces against the German invasion. But this emotion of mine was something quite different and deeper, going even beyond the limits of my adherence to Communism.”

That imperial nationalism permeates the Russian literature, music and art.

The same could be said about France and Germany.

However, I must point out that Russian literature, music, and art has prospered in spite of imperialism, in spite of communism. That implies that Russian culture flows deeper than systems of government, deeper than ideologies.

The two revolutions swept through every institution in the Russian Empire, bringing down the tsar and all his ministers, destroying the police force, causing the army to disintegrate, and tearing apart the official standing of the Russian Orthodox Church... Through this chaos, one aspect of the old way of life survived: the educated Russian’s love of high culture. (source: Russian Artists Under Stalin by Andy McSmith)

The fact that Russian culture has survived unchanged since ancient times demonstrates a fact of life: only that which has enduring value flourishes.

Умом Россию не понять, Аршином общим не измерить: У ней особенная стать - В Россию можно только верить.
You can't understand Russia with your mind, you can't measure it with a yardstick: It has a special shape, you can only believe in it. (Fyodor Tyutchev; for comparison, see William Ernest Henley's Invictus)

(I cite Fyodor Tyutchev, not to agree with him, but to show how a single idea of value can persist for generations, even if the author was otherwise mediocre and forgettable.)

Timothy Dexter, an eccentric American businessman, errected a mausoleum and built some 40 statues to himself, and even commissioned a poet to transmit his name to posterity, "Lord Dexter is a man of fame; Most celebrated is his name; More precious far than gold that's pure, Lord Dexter shine forevermore." But after his death: storms ruined most of his statues; the only identified survivor was that of William Pitt. His book remains his primary legacy to this day.

That imperial Russian nationalism was the direct cause of the war.

This statement simply reflects not only profound ignorance of Russia's history, but also of basic cause and effect, for which there are multiple known and unknown factors. We are done here.

originally posted by: RussianTroll

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: RussianTroll

There is no point in talking to someone who swallows the Putin party line unquestioningly and refuses to engage in any sort of critical thinking.

Putin stole your candy again?
Don't cry, there's still plenty of candy. You can, for example, bomb another country in Africa.... If, of course, Wagner allows it))))

How is that retraction going about the Bismark comments RT?

a reply to: RussianTroll

Can you not at least tell us something interesting and real about Otto von Bismarck?

Considering as a statesman and architect of German unification he's still studied and debated to this day.

a reply to: GogolJoker

It is precisely fear and mistrust of other nations, especially Russophobia, which has brought mankind to the brink of another world war. If this fear was eliminated, people would still be proud of their nation and boast that their country was the best, but they certainly wouldn't start wars over it.

It's not Russophobia Gogol', it's the thought of a dictator who is willing to do anything to keep his grip on power, even if that includes killing his own people and threatening the rest of the world with nuclear armageddon that cause the disdain, but just like RT your comments have nothing to do with the thread and are just of topic comments which cause thread drift, which could be removed by a Mod.

Its funny as the re-edited comments from a facebook post attributed to Bismark were also pushed as a demonstration of western Russophobia....

a reply to: Kurokage

I don't know anyone who is Russophobic. Seems Russians have to fabricate quotes and stuff to try and claim such a thing.

As for Anglophobes, I have come across one or two?

a reply to: Kurokage

I was addressing the user's points, tis all. Do not confuse me with RussianTroll, I am not even Russian, I have my own agenda in all this.

Let me clear up a misunderstand: I agree that Putin is as you say, "willing to do anything to keep his grip on power". However, greed/ego is not the main motive for this, he is safe to say, a strong believer of History, he seriously believes what he says about Russia's history. I heard that he has a habit of re-watching recordings of himself, listening to his own words, it's somewhat hypnotic.
___

This is what I recently heard from an anti-Putin Austrian seer (who, in his own words, has been "studying the russian foreign affairs for more than 10 years, even before the crimea invasion"):

Our leaders think everyone has to see the world the same way we do. Even those "analysts", military strategiest etc seem to lack the ability to out themselves into Putin's shoes. In fact the current conflict really shows the hubris and hypocricy that has stricken the western world... Is he driven by greed, trying to amass wealth? In a way it surely is a symbol for him. But he doesn't strike me as the greedy old man that does just all that for money. He has his own principles.

For context, he also wrote,

"Until i saw the tucker carlson putin interview I thought that putin has everything under control. But now I only see an old confused man anymore, he seems lost in his own fantasy. I wouldn’t really be surprised if he would be replaced anytime soon."

""What I meant is, that putin is way in to deep in his own reality... His argumentation doesn't make sense for most of us. That makes him look confused. I thought these historical claims he keeps bringing up are just a facade, something to make a good story. But now I think he really thinks this is it. This gives him any right, because he is right."

a reply to: GogolJoker

I was addressing the user's points, tis all. Do not confuse me with RussianTroll, I am not even Russian, I have my own agenda in all this.

If you wish to clear up any misunderstandings it might be helpful if you care to share what your agenda actually is if anything other than banter and debate.

a reply to: GogolJoker

Thanks for the reply.
As I pointed out, this is a thread posted in the History forum by RT which he claimed Otto Von Bismark made certain comments, with most proven as false by the Bismark Foundation many years ago.
RT refuses to speak to certain members because he's been shown to lie for his nationalist agenda. Here, the Bismark comments aren't mentioned again by him because they've been shown as a fabrication to push Russaphobia.

You may not be Russian but Gogol was a Ukrainian who was a Russian novelist, with both sides of the Russian invasion of Ukraine fighting over many cultural icons like him. RT likes to claim them as Russian and if your opinion differs to his, he claims bullying.
This a thread 4 pages in, and other than the first incorrect post by RT he hasn't mentioned Bismark again and would rather rant about the terrorist attack or post anti-west tripe.

a reply to: GogolJoker

Do you seriously believe I would waste my time getting into a debate with the likes of you, when I'm outnumbered by poisoned moralists who will just gang up on me and wear me out in the end? And you seem to the most hostile and intolerable of them all, there is a noticeable lack of respect.

I'm actually one of the least emotionally invested people here. I prefer to focus on facts than moral evaluations. I don't care about your nationality or agenda. I pointed out the obvious flaws in your argumentation, which seems to be more than you can handle.

So you get your knowledge from palm readers and clairvoyants. Good to know. You could at least check whether these seers' claims hold any merit, like the one about Russia being peaceful if left alone and Europe not learning its lesson for 300 years. I explained to you why you were wrong.

Or your claim that nationalism stems from fear, while it rarely does and, in the case of Russia it surely doesn't. And this topic is about Russia and a bit about Germany, not about other countries.

Your three lenthy replies full of irrelevant details and quotes, which you posted to appear "clever", do not refer to any arguments I posted except for:

I'm afraid I don't know enough about the social conditions for this chapter of Russian history to offer any input. I'll let an actual Russian handle it.

Or:

don't have the time to go down this rabbit hole...

And I never implied that you're a Bolshevik. It was a humorous comment. I meant that like Lenin, you would prefer to ignore or erase from the history of Russia all the elements of bourgeois heritage, among them Russian imperialism. It blew over your head.

You're right. We are done here.

originally posted by: GogolJoker

Because Cheiro, who was a famous palm-reader and exceptional clairvoyant, ...
...
And his most ominous prediction for the future: "A new idea of Government will little by little spread from this country, which will completely revolutionise Europe, Asia, and the Far East, and Russia will become the most powerful nation in the history of modern civilisation."

You listen to palm readers and clairvoyants, who listen to demons.

I listen to the MOTHER OF GOD. The Virgin Mary. Know what she said about Russia? In 1917 she appeared to three children in FATIMA Portugal, and she told them that unless Russia is consecration to her by all the Bishops in union in the Catholic church, then Russia would continue to spread it's errors. She said that Russia had to convert from it's evil. No consecration ever fully took place and therefore Russia continues to spread its errors.

Those are the words of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Mother of God, and not some palm reader who gets his information from the devil.

Wikipedia - Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary