you are correct in that the Documents case for Trump is different than Biden

originally posted by: Threadbarer
a reply to: FlyersFan

Capitol staffers were responsible for packing and unpacking the office.

lol

"The buck stops there."
-Biden

So many people defend Joe by pointing out staffers, not he, were responsible for packing all the material he took after leaving the VP position ponting out he 'didn't pack the boxes himself'. Do they think Trump paqcked and moved his own boxes?

And while using that excuse for Biden they neglect to address all of the classified documents he had going all the way back to the beginning of his career as senator.

The FBI informed Biden's lawayers if he didn't turn over any classified documents at his home they would seek a search warrant. Reading that as 'he voluntarily cooperated' is pretty lame; they were holding a gun to his head.

It's time for everybody to watch the movie 'Wag the Dog' again; the past few years have shown us in real time how they make and break leaders and powerful people.

a reply to: CarlLaFong

This is perhaps the biggest lie. No, Joe did not willfully hand over anything. If you recall (if you're a dem/lib then that's a no lol), he withheld this information. They knew prior to the midterm elections amd they buried it. Not until CBS News leaked the story did anyone find out. But, as is the liberal playbook, they either change the definition to suit their narrative or just pretend it never happened. I challenge you to find a single Democrat or liberal that will acknowledge these facts.

originally posted by: Threadbarer
a reply to: network dude

A Senator on the Foreign Relations Committee wouldn't have access to classified documents pertaining to foreign relations?

This is the dumbest thing I've read so far this year. You are correct, senators do not bring classified documents home for their crack head sons to play with. It's against the law for some reason I'm sure you can't think of.

originally posted by: Threadbarer
Capitol staffers were responsible for packing and unpacking the office.

Those 'Capitol staffers' don't have the top secret clearance to be able to see or touch classified documents. I keep pointing out this fact and you keep ignoring it. Why?

a reply to: Station27

The report shows that Joe has been stealing classified documents for decades.
So is EVERYONE on EVERY staff he's EVER had over the past three decades incompetent?

originally posted by: Threadbarer
a reply to: FlyersFan

Capitol staffers were responsible for packing and unpacking the office.

Where were the Secret documents stored in his congressional office such that any random staffer could inadvertently pick them up and put them in a box? ... or worse walk away with them?

a reply to: network dude

Here is some background information governing Senators and classified information:

“While the matter has not been definitively addressed by the Supreme Court, it is well settled that Congress has both a Constitutional and statutory right to access information within the executive branch, including classified information.
Congress’ authority to obtain information from the executive branch stems from the explicit constitutional grants of authority to Congress, such as the power to legislate, to appropriate all funds, and to confirm presidential appointments. All of these explicit powers require information in the possession of the executive branch and knowledge of executive branch activities.”

In other words, the Congressional right for access to information that the Executive branch has classified ultimately comes from the Constitution.

“Congressional access to classified records is governed by both statute and executive order. The National Security Act of 1947, as amended, states that, “The President shall ensure that the congressional intelligence committees are kept fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States,” and that, “Nothing in this Act shall be construed as authority to withhold information from the congressional committees on the grounds that providing the information to the congressional intelligence committees would constitute the unauthorized disclosure of classified information or information relating to intelligence sources and methods.”

So this is one of the main laws granting Senators access to SCI, or codeword protected information, over and above information classified at the Confidential/Secret/Top Secret levels.

“Senators and Congressmen, along with other Federal officials including the President, Vice President, and Supreme Court justices, have access to classified records by virtue of their positions, and neither undergo background checks to obtain security clearances nor sign an SF 312.”

This special treatment is due to the separation of powers of the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial Branches. The Executive Branch gets to set the rules that Executive Branch employees, contractors, and military personnel have to follow in handling and safeguarding classified information. Those rules are set down in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) and in Executive Orders issued periodically by the POTUS. I believe the currently operative Executive Order is 13526, issued by Obama in 2010. But, Executive Orders do not apply to the Legislative or Judicial Branches, so those Branches get to make their own rules for how to handle classified information. The US Navy sailor who got nailed for taking pictures inside a nuclear submarine was a military employee of the Executive Branch so he would have been subject to Executive Order 13526 and the CFRs. Because he took pictures inside a Navy nuclear submarine, he probably also violated parts of the Atomic Energy Act, which is entirely outside the control of the Executive Branch, but that’s a different story. BTW, the Code of Federal Regulations only applies to federal agencies, so a civilian who has never been granted a security clearance and signed a Federal Non-Disclosure Agreement for classified information is not subject to Executive Orders or CFRs.

“Non-elected personnel on the staffs of Congressional committees that work with classified records must obtain security clearances and sign a Standard Form 312 (Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement). Security clearances for staff are administered by the House and Senate security offices or by the individual committees.”

So yes, Senators, Representatives, and Federal Judges are treated differently than military personnel, civilian employees or contractors of the Executive Branch, or non-elected staff of Congress. That difference in treatment is baked into the Constitution. Because of this, the Senate (and House, and Judicial Branch) get to make their own rules for handling classified information. Here's how the Senate does it:

“Records management and information security functions within the Senate are managed by the Secretary of the Senate. The Office of Senate Security, … issues the Senate Security Manual, which covers all aspects of security, from physical requirements for the storage of classified information to procedures for conducting investigations of security violations. …The Senate Archivist, also under the administration of the Secretary of the Senate, has issued a records management handbook that addresses the handling of classified records. According to the Handbook, any classified records in the personal collections of senators— which should not include committee records or other records covered by statute or standing rule of Congress—should be reviewed for declassification before donation. This review should be coordinated by the Senate Archivist with the Center for Legislative Archives and the Information Security Oversight Office of NARA.”

In other words, Biden had a Constitutional and statutory right to possess classified documents while he was a Senator. Furthermore, any mishandling of classified documents while he WAS a Senator would have been investigated and handled by the Senate and not by the Executive Branch or courts. (Separation of powers, again.) And finally:

“In contrast to the institutional records of the House and Senate and the records of their committees, the papers of an individual Senator or Congressman are considered the “private property of the individual member,” and are often donated to an archival repository in the politician’s home state upon retirement. Any classified information contained in the private papers of a senator or congressman remains under the control of the Executive branch agency that created and classified that information, even while the medium on which that information is communicated is the property of that politician.”

I think this is what Biden was referring to when he claimed that he had a well-established right to retain papers in his personal collection from the time he was a Senator, even if some of those papers might have had classified information in them. A former Senator would have that right, but a former POTUS or VP would not, because the POTUS and VP are governed by the Presidential Records Act, but Senators are not.

The foregoing material in quotation marks is from:
cdn.americanprogress.org...
and
sgp.fas.org...

originally posted by: Station27

originally posted by: Threadbarer
Capitol staffers were responsible for packing and unpacking the office.

Those 'Capitol staffers' don't have the top secret clearance to be able to see or touch classified documents. I keep pointing out this fact and you keep ignoring it. Why?

"Kathy Chung, Mr. Biden's former assistant, gave a voluntary, transcribed interview to the House Committee on Oversight and Reform on April 4 [2023]. She testified that she and another aide packed up the outgoing vice president's office at the end of the Obama administration, placing folders and other items in boxes. Those boxes were then taken to a government transition facility before eventually ending up at the offices of the Penn Biden Center in Washington, a think tank run by the University of Pennsylvania where Mr. Biden kept an office, Chung testified.

The committee's chairman, Rep. James Comer, launched an investigation after documents marked as classified were found in Mr. Biden's office and Delaware home last fall and earlier this year. ....

According to a partial transcript from Democratic staff on the committee, Chung testified that she and another Biden assistant, Ann Marie Person, worked quickly to help pack up the vice presidential office before Donald Trump took office. She testified that she didn't notice any classified material at any point in the process. Chung said she had a security clearance and experience handling classified material while she was in the vice president's office.

Chung said she packed about 13 boxes at the White House, at the time believing that all presidential and classified material had already been turned over to the appropriate offices. She said she placed folders in the boxes and did not examine the papers inside the folders. They also packed boxes with items such as challenge coins, personal correspondence, condolence letters, schedule copies, copies of past speeches and some other photos and documents.

The boxes, Chung said, were taken to a General Services Administration transition facility near the White House, where they stayed for six months. They were then moved to a building in Washington's Chinatown neighborhood that was leased by the Penn Biden Center before eventually being moved to the think tank's main office space.

Chung, who was Mr. Biden's aide during the Obama administration and continued working for him once he left the White House, said she unpacked the boxes at Mr. Biden's Penn Biden Center office, placing some of the file folders in a cabinet. She testified that she didn't rifle through the papers individually as she unpacked.

She said she received a call in May 2022 from the White House counsel at the time, Dana Remus, who asked Chung to help re-pack the boxes at the Penn Biden Center. She said she did so. It wasn't until November 2022 that Bob Bauer, the president's personal attorney, called her to tell her classified material was found in the boxes she had packed, according to her testimony."

From:

www.cbsnews.com...

a reply to: network dude

The presidential records act gives the president of the United States almost unlimited authority over handling of classified documents.

Upon leaving office, President Obama had classified documents shipped to a shutdown Chicago furniture store, and nobody complained.

originally posted by: nugget1
So many people defend Joe by pointing out staffers, not he, were responsible for packing all the material he took after leaving the VP position ponting out he 'didn't pack the boxes himself'. Do they think Trump paqcked and moved his own boxes?

Here are the first few paragraphs of the indictment against Trump that answer your questions:

2. "Over the course of his presidency, TRUMP gathered newspapers, press clippings, letters, notes, cards, photographs, official documents, and other materials in cardboard boxes that he kept in the White House. Among the materials TRUMP stored in his boxes were hundreds of classified documents.

3. The classified documents TRUMP stored in his boxes included information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries; United States nuclear programs; potential vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack; and plans for possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack. The unauthorized disclosure of these classified documents could put at risk the national security of the United States, foreign relations, the safety of the United States military, and human sources and the continued viability of sensitive intelligence collection methods.

4. At 12:00 p.m. on January 20, 2021, TRUMP ceased to be president. As he departed the White House, TRUMP caused scores of boxes, many of which contained classified documents, to be transported to The Mar-a-Lago Club in Palm Beach, Florida, where he maintained his residence. TRUMP was not authorized to possess or retain those classified documents."

White House staff have been interviewed in the press and attested to the truth of paragraphs 2 and 4, above. Over the 4 years of his administration, he had the habit of taking papers with him to the residential quarters of the White House when he went there for the evening. Instead of returning those papers to the office, he just stuck them in a banker box. When one got full, he would start another. As he was leaving, he directed those boxes to be put on the pallets by the moving crew with all the other stuff being sent to Mar-a-Lago. Jack Smith would not put these details in the charging document unless he has sworn testimony to back up the claims. Trump also appeared on national TV on the Sean Hannity show and admitted flat out that he took the documents.

a reply to: XRedHarvestX

Trump had the power to declassify the documents

Did he? You say he did and he said he did, but did he? Are you just believing him or do you have more to base your statement on than that.

I know nothing about it myself other than what I read and by now know that believing what I read is questionable. However, I can only speculate here, if something were classified top secret, would it not have to be first committed to record? That is put on some kind of list of ''secret'' information? Classified information? I would think so and I suspect you might think that as well.

So how can things be ''declassified''. Is this just something that a potus can just do in his mind? Would he not have to make some record of that declassification? Something to add to the original classification status claiming the it was now
''unclassified? I would suspect so. Yet, is there any record of him declassifying any of that material other than him claiming after he had bee found to have it that he did it in his brain without telling anyone?

a reply to: Threadbarer

It’s against tnc to be willfully ignorant when you’ve been shown the truth 29 times . Why is this person allowed to keep posting this nonsense ???

a reply to: network dude

Why is this even still a thing?

The national archives knew what documents Trump had, because Trump stored the documents IN ACCORDANCE WITH GUIDANCE FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES.

Pretty simple concept. If they knew what docs he had, instead of providing guidance on how to store them, you'd think they'd want them back if they were "too classified" for the president of the United States...

As opposed to storing documents in a cardboard box next to the Corvette your son joyrides around in with Chinese nationals...

Or an insecure email server....

Especially since a Senator or Vice President can't take the documents, period, or since official government business can't be performed thru private emails, period.......

Hypocrites.

originally posted by: Lovelyldy
a reply to: Threadbarer

It’s against tnc to be willfully ignorant when you’ve been shown the truth 29 times . Why is this person allowed to keep posting this nonsense ???

Since I started coming here about 15 years ago, most of our leftist members have become unhinged (as the overall left has become increasingly unhinged), lost their ability to have civil discourse or even recognize reality, and eventually quit the site because they couldn't handle their nonsense being questioned and challenged.

Maybe the moderators are reluctant to bring the hammer down on one of the few leftists that are still here for the sake of diversity of thought on the forum.

a reply to: YourFaceAgain

I'm not saying, but some here are folks who were here before, but asked to leave and came back as a new user name. I know it's super rare, but I did happen at least once.

a reply to: Boomer1947

can you just point out the proper procedure for removing classified documents from a SCIF and storing them in your house. Thanks, I'd hate for you to type a bunch of silly things again, just to the pertinent parts.

Not much to add.

But I do appreciate how this thread highlights the (D)ifferences in the two cases.

originally posted by: Boomer1947


In other words, Biden had a Constitutional and statutory right to possess classified documents while he was a Senator. Furthermore, any mishandling of classified documents while he WAS a Senator would have been investigated and handled by the Senate and not by the Executive Branch or courts. (Separation of powers, again.) And finally:

I doubt you will come back, but for the room, there is no argument that Biden had access to TS documents. The problem comes almost to the millisecond, the exact time Joe Biden took them home. I'm sure you were a general or something, but they teach us plebes that not keeping comsec and opsec at the forefront when dealing with classified material is go to big boy jail kind of stuff. And based on the reference in the OP, it's well understood that it's no bullsh!t.

So at what rank do they stop caring about secrity?