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originally posted by: ARM19688
Everyday is miraculous.
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: Venkuish1
Not to mention that religious faith is a near-universal experience of humanity. Only a very small percentage of people do not believe in a God or a spiritual reality of some sort. Sorry to say, but you are most definitely in the minority, when you consider all peoples all around the world. The fact that you simply state your beliefs without any qualification could be seen as immature by some, and indeed that is how I view your comments. You are stating what you WANT to believe, and that is not based on any sort of evidence, it is based on your feelings, your desires about what reality must conform to, in order to satisfy your own life philosophy.
Simply put, I feel very confident in refuting your assertions - I've had numerous experiences which prove to me that there is a God, that angels exist, that demons exist. Again, you are in the minority, and if you want to be taken seriously, you should explain yourself a little better, rather than just shouting out your beliefs & walking away.
Long post so I will answer the main points.
How can you refuted anything when I have only stated facts and haven't asserted beliefs or made some wild claims.
And you can't refute other people's claims just by rely on your feelings and your beliefs.
The following are factual.
There is no evidence of the existence of angels and demons.
There is no evidence of life after death
There is no evidence of a supernatural being who is creator of the universe.
No much evidence exists that Jesus was a real person and certainly no evidence he was the son of the God of the Old Testament who is the creator of the universe. No evidence he died and then got resurrected.
I didn't state any beliefs as you falsely claimed. I stated that simply there is no evidence for the religious claims made and no evidence for the things I discussed above. You are confusing me with people who are religious.
You don't know how many people believe in a God but I will agree it's minority that doesn't believe in God. But majorities don't get to decide what is true and what is false just like they don't get to decide how a chemistry or physics book should be written and their contents.
Personal experiences could exists for a lost of things we discuss but they don't count as evidence.
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
Hi ATS,
Just a short OP today with the simple question in the title: Do you feel that we may be facing something miraculous up ahead?
The reason I ask is that the corruption & disinformation, and the fallout of the depopulation plandemic is now thick like treacle, and with the whole financial CBDC system being almost ready to go after the launch of the UMU (Universal Monetary Unit - a CBDC) by the IMF, alongside the WHO Pandemic Treaty & changes to the International Health Regulations, with the threatening situation regarding wars around the world, and deception abounding everywhere - it just feels like we're poised on a knife edge - farmers protesting around Europe, Canadians increasing the number of reasons you might want to commit suicide (if you're poor, for example, or if you're a bit depressed).
I have a very strong sense that at some point something major will happen to utterly disrupt the flow of this advance of corruption & deception. Probably just before the Pandemic Treaty is rolled out by the World Health Organisation - which will give them the ability to lock down all nations at the drop of the hat, because of just about anything, even 'climate emergencies' or 'disinformation pandemics'. After the Pandemic Treaty, if they institute the CBDCs widely, alongside all the many Western nations rolling out censorship laws to control freedom of speech, then they have us all by the short & curlies, we'll be utterly constrained, freedom will be a thing of the past.
If you believe, as I do, that God won't stand idly by while these corrupt bastards lock us down in a forever state of 'Super-Control-Systems', in 15 minute neighbourhoods with no freedom of movement & no freedom to speak as we choose, with no rights to reject WHO mandated 'medicines/vaccines', with no freedom to earn real money or to own property - essentially causing us to become 'forever slaves' - then at some point soon, it seems that something miraculous will need to occur which will utterly disrupt their exceedingly clever & tightly-organised plans for world domination.
It will be the End of Days, with the appearance of angels & the work of prophets, the deconstruction of the control systems that the Elites have been busy constructing via back room meetings in Davos over the past thirty or forty years. As if the truth would never come to light, as if the Light would never do anything to quell the power of the Darkness. I've said it before elsewhere, but there is a difference between the wars of former generations & the situation today. In former times there was still freedom of action, the ability to resist, and a lot of people & groups were able to overcome the darkness & restart democratic processes after destructive wars. But currently this warfare is fifth generation, fought against the citizens by the uber-state worldwide control network of corporations & globalist NGOs, quietly chaperoning us into a sinister condition of depopulation & ultimate technological control of each one of us individually & all of us collectively.
I don't think we can get out of this without divine help, simply put.
And I believe that help is needed sooner, rather than later. I believe we will start to see miraculous & perhaps inexplicable events occurring in the not-too-distant future, before the International Health Summit of May 2024 would be my guess, when the WHO will announce its total control over the health responses of all the nations when an 'incident of concern' allegedly occurs. We need a way to resist changes like that, and humanly speaking, it's not possible for the small percentage of people who are truly awake to overcome the corruption at scale, to resist & defeat the Enemy without some serious external help & assistance - or a massive boost in the numbers of people who are aware of what is really going on.
I've been having dreams about this for years - I think it's going to come to pass soon, that we find ourselves very much living in the time of the End of Days. I'd love to be wrong - but I don't think I am. If you pray, now is the time to pray for increased numbers of people waking up, and for that external help to come rolling in to support those of us who understand & object to what is happening around the world, in nearly all nations.
Godspeed.
FITO.
No!
The end of days will not happen.
Angels don't exist.
Demons don't exist.
No evidence for the existence of any type of God either.
No second coming of Jesus (doubt he existed at all) and no apocalypse...
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: Venkuish1
Not to mention that religious faith is a near-universal experience of humanity. Only a very small percentage of people do not believe in a God or a spiritual reality of some sort. Sorry to say, but you are most definitely in the minority, when you consider all peoples all around the world. The fact that you simply state your beliefs without any qualification could be seen as immature by some, and indeed that is how I view your comments. You are stating what you WANT to believe, and that is not based on any sort of evidence, it is based on your feelings, your desires about what reality must conform to, in order to satisfy your own life philosophy.
Simply put, I feel very confident in refuting your assertions - I've had numerous experiences which prove to me that there is a God, that angels exist, that demons exist. Again, you are in the minority, and if you want to be taken seriously, you should explain yourself a little better, rather than just shouting out your beliefs & walking away.
Long post so I will answer the main points.
How can you refuted anything when I have only stated facts and haven't asserted beliefs or made some wild claims.
And you can't refute other people's claims just by rely on your feelings and your beliefs.
The following are factual.
There is no evidence of the existence of angels and demons.
People frequently present as, and claim, demon possession. It could be mental illness adopting a fiction of an archetype, but it is 'stronger' evidence than a total absence of evidence.
As well, many in desperate physical peril say they have been saved by supernatural forces, and that they have identified as angels. The very survival of those particular people is often inexplicable by other means. Of course this could be fiction, too.
There is no evidence of life after death
Quite frequently people have been resuscitated after brain-death and bodily-death. So, something that is a person seems to have survived after death. This has been objectively documented in many cases.
Interestingly, many (not all) of those who survive such experiences, describe similar narratives at times when consciousness should have ceased. Some have described what they call heaven, and of direct communication with whom they believe to be religious identities.
I think that there can be other reasons for these accounts, but nothing is definitive, so, seeking for the strongest evidence we have, we have to take these things on face-value and cannot reasonably disregard them.
There is no evidence of a supernatural being who is creator of the universe.
There is no evidence as to how the universe came into existence, or of any situation before there was a universe. Yet it most definitively is here, now. An absence of evidence has no evidentiary 'weight'.
The incredible level if integrated complexity of the universe seems to require conscious action to be so.
For instance the universe is full of variety, and yet we know that iterative systems over time tend towards one of least energy state (entropy). Why are there so many different atoms? Why is most of life and life allowing systems seemingly irreducibly complex? Why hasn't the universe collapsed to the one single least energy thing? Why has it gone the opposite way from the get-go?
And there are subjective evidences of the supernatural. Just as there are such intuited evidences for the multiple physical dimensions beyond those few we normally acknowledge. Just because it doesn't present as a slam-dunk case, does not mean that we should disregard them in preference for nothing at all.
No much evidence exists that Jesus was a real person and certainly no evidence he was the son of the God of the Old Testament who is the creator of the universe. No evidence he died and then got resurrected.
There is much contemporary documentary evidence that the historical person of Jesus existed. Even contemporary detractors and non-believers talked about Him as a real historical person.
The historically sudden rise and spread of Christianity is inexplicable without an initiating figure with some degree of credibility.
Many of the earliest writings by those who were identified as historically contingent, claimed to be eyewitness testimony.
Many of them were martyred for their faith and none of them renounced their beliefs. Nor are there historical accounts of anyone claiming direct witness having recanted under pain of death, which 'punishment' was occurring at the time, and well documented.
I didn't state any beliefs as you falsely claimed. I stated that simply there is no evidence for the religious claims made and no evidence for the things I discussed above. You are confusing me with people who are religious.
You don't know how many people believe in a God but I will agree it's minority that doesn't believe in God. But majorities don't get to decide what is true and what is false just like they don't get to decide how a chemistry or physics book should be written and their contents.
Personal experiences could exists for a lost of things we discuss but they don't count as evidence.
An absence of evidence does not count as evidence, but personal experience does count as evidence.
That is why even in court cases with strong objective evidence, they still call witnesses to support their case, despite how unreliable human witness may be.
originally posted by: daskakik
originally posted by: chr0naut
I'm an Aussie, so I couldn't be impartial on the matter.
But we want the truth.
Nobody is going to blame the aussies if it is turtles half way down and then a kangaroo (not yet confirmed) and then turtles the rest of the way down.
The ausies didn't create kangaroos or rabbits. Maybe it is a frog, then we can blame kek.
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
Hi ATS,
Just a short OP today with the simple question in the title: Do you feel that we may be facing something miraculous up ahead?
The reason I ask is that the corruption & disinformation, and the fallout of the depopulation plandemic is now thick like treacle, and with the whole financial CBDC system being almost ready to go after the launch of the UMU (Universal Monetary Unit - a CBDC) by the IMF, alongside the WHO Pandemic Treaty & changes to the International Health Regulations, with the threatening situation regarding wars around the world, and deception abounding everywhere - it just feels like we're poised on a knife edge - farmers protesting around Europe, Canadians increasing the number of reasons you might want to commit suicide (if you're poor, for example, or if you're a bit depressed).
I have a very strong sense that at some point something major will happen to utterly disrupt the flow of this advance of corruption & deception. Probably just before the Pandemic Treaty is rolled out by the World Health Organisation - which will give them the ability to lock down all nations at the drop of the hat, because of just about anything, even 'climate emergencies' or 'disinformation pandemics'. After the Pandemic Treaty, if they institute the CBDCs widely, alongside all the many Western nations rolling out censorship laws to control freedom of speech, then they have us all by the short & curlies, we'll be utterly constrained, freedom will be a thing of the past.
If you believe, as I do, that God won't stand idly by while these corrupt bastards lock us down in a forever state of 'Super-Control-Systems', in 15 minute neighbourhoods with no freedom of movement & no freedom to speak as we choose, with no rights to reject WHO mandated 'medicines/vaccines', with no freedom to earn real money or to own property - essentially causing us to become 'forever slaves' - then at some point soon, it seems that something miraculous will need to occur which will utterly disrupt their exceedingly clever & tightly-organised plans for world domination.
It will be the End of Days, with the appearance of angels & the work of prophets, the deconstruction of the control systems that the Elites have been busy constructing via back room meetings in Davos over the past thirty or forty years. As if the truth would never come to light, as if the Light would never do anything to quell the power of the Darkness. I've said it before elsewhere, but there is a difference between the wars of former generations & the situation today. In former times there was still freedom of action, the ability to resist, and a lot of people & groups were able to overcome the darkness & restart democratic processes after destructive wars. But currently this warfare is fifth generation, fought against the citizens by the uber-state worldwide control network of corporations & globalist NGOs, quietly chaperoning us into a sinister condition of depopulation & ultimate technological control of each one of us individually & all of us collectively.
I don't think we can get out of this without divine help, simply put.
And I believe that help is needed sooner, rather than later. I believe we will start to see miraculous & perhaps inexplicable events occurring in the not-too-distant future, before the International Health Summit of May 2024 would be my guess, when the WHO will announce its total control over the health responses of all the nations when an 'incident of concern' allegedly occurs. We need a way to resist changes like that, and humanly speaking, it's not possible for the small percentage of people who are truly awake to overcome the corruption at scale, to resist & defeat the Enemy without some serious external help & assistance - or a massive boost in the numbers of people who are aware of what is really going on.
I've been having dreams about this for years - I think it's going to come to pass soon, that we find ourselves very much living in the time of the End of Days. I'd love to be wrong - but I don't think I am. If you pray, now is the time to pray for increased numbers of people waking up, and for that external help to come rolling in to support those of us who understand & object to what is happening around the world, in nearly all nations.
Godspeed.
FITO.
No!
The end of days will not happen.
Angels don't exist.
Demons don't exist.
No evidence for the existence of any type of God either.
No second coming of Jesus (doubt he existed at all) and no apocalypse...
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: Venkuish1
People frequently present as, and claim, demon possession. It could be mental illness adopting a fiction of an archetype, but it is 'stronger' evidence than a total absence of evidence.
As well, many in desperate physical peril say they have been saved by supernatural forces, and that they have identified as angels. The very survival of those particular people is often inexplicable by other means. Of course this could be fiction, too.
There is no evidence of life after death
Quite frequently people have been resuscitated after brain-death and bodily-death. So, something that is a person seems to have survived after death. This has been objectively documented in many cases.
Interestingly, many (not all) of those who survive such experiences, describe similar narratives at times when consciousness should have ceased. Some have described what they call heaven, and of direct communication with whom they believe to be religious identities.
I think that there can be other reasons for these accounts, but nothing is definitive, so, seeking for the strongest evidence we have, we have to take these things on face-value and cannot reasonably disregard them.
There is no evidence of a supernatural being who is creator of the universe.
There is no evidence as to how the universe came into existence, or of any situation before there was a universe. Yet it most definitively is here, now. An absence of evidence has no evidentiary 'weight'.
The incredible level if integrated complexity of the universe seems to require conscious action to be so.
For instance the universe is full of variety, and yet we know that iterative systems over time tend towards one of least energy state (entropy). Why are there so many different atoms? Why is most of life and life allowing systems seemingly irreducibly complex? Why hasn't the universe collapsed to the one single least energy thing? Why has it gone the opposite way from the get-go?
And there are subjective evidences of the supernatural. Just as there are such intuited evidences for the multiple physical dimensions beyond those few we normally acknowledge. Just because it doesn't present as a slam-dunk case, does not mean that we should disregard them in preference for nothing at all.
No much evidence exists that Jesus was a real person and certainly no evidence he was the son of the God of the Old Testament who is the creator of the universe. No evidence he died and then got resurrected.
There is much contemporary documentary evidence that the historical person of Jesus existed. Even contemporary detractors and non-believers talked about Him as a real historical person.
The historically sudden rise and spread of Christianity is inexplicable without an initiating figure with some degree of credibility.
Many of the earliest writings by those who were identified as historically contingent, claimed to be eyewitness testimony.
Many of them were martyred for their faith and none of them renounced their beliefs. Nor are there historical accounts of anyone claiming direct witness having recanted under pain of death, which 'punishment' was occurring at the time, and well documented.
I didn't state any beliefs as you falsely claimed. I stated that simply there is no evidence for the religious claims made and no evidence for the things I discussed above. You are confusing me with people who are religious.
You don't know how many people believe in a God but I will agree it's minority that doesn't believe in God. But majorities don't get to decide what is true and what is false just like they don't get to decide how a chemistry or physics book should be written and their contents.
Personal experiences could exists for a lost of things we discuss but they don't count as evidence.
An absence of evidence does not count as evidence, but personal experience does count as evidence.
That is why even in court cases with strong objective evidence, they still call witnesses to support their case, despite how unreliable human witness may be.
You have written an entire article in which you try hard to excuse the beliefs of religious people but you spectaculary fail again and again.
Come on now, do you consider religious apology to be a good tactic in a debate or arguments from ignorance where the gaps in knowledge are always a mystery explained by God until the gaps are filled by science and then you move to the next 'unexplained mystery'.
You remind me of another poster who hasn't understood yet basic science and has tried many times to assert the existence of God to describe the universe and its creation. You ask why there are so many atoms and different elements? Should this be clear by now?
Argument from ignorance.
You assert we don't know how the universe has come to exist and therefore something supernatural must have created it. You need much more than this.
As to how the universe was created this has been solved long time ago.
Still there is no evidence of demons/angels. No evidence of life after death, no evidence for the existence of an intelligent creator, nothing much to justify the beliefs for the supernatural world. Personal experiences and feelings are different to evidence as you and I know.
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: Venkuish1
Not to mention that religious faith is a near-universal experience of humanity. Only a very small percentage of people do not believe in a God or a spiritual reality of some sort. Sorry to say, but you are most definitely in the minority, when you consider all peoples all around the world. The fact that you simply state your beliefs without any qualification could be seen as immature by some, and indeed that is how I view your comments. You are stating what you WANT to believe, and that is not based on any sort of evidence, it is based on your feelings, your desires about what reality must conform to, in order to satisfy your own life philosophy.
Simply put, I feel very confident in refuting your assertions - I've had numerous experiences which prove to me that there is a God, that angels exist, that demons exist. Again, you are in the minority, and if you want to be taken seriously, you should explain yourself a little better, rather than just shouting out your beliefs & walking away.
Long post so I will answer the main points.
How can you refuted anything when I have only stated facts and haven't asserted beliefs or made some wild claims.
And you can't refute other people's claims just by rely on your feelings and your beliefs.
The following are factual.
There is no evidence of the existence of angels and demons.
People frequently present as, and claim, demon possession. It could be mental illness adopting a fiction of an archetype, but it is 'stronger' evidence than a total absence of evidence.
As well, many in desperate physical peril say they have been saved by supernatural forces, and that they have identified as angels. The very survival of those particular people is often inexplicable by other means. Of course this could be fiction, too.
There is no evidence of life after death
Quite frequently people have been resuscitated after brain-death and bodily-death. So, something that is a person seems to have survived after death. This has been objectively documented in many cases.
Interestingly, many (not all) of those who survive such experiences, describe similar narratives at times when consciousness should have ceased. Some have described what they call heaven, and of direct communication with whom they believe to be religious identities.
I think that there can be other reasons for these accounts, but nothing is definitive, so, seeking for the strongest evidence we have, we have to take these things on face-value and cannot reasonably disregard them.
There is no evidence of a supernatural being who is creator of the universe.
There is no evidence as to how the universe came into existence, or of any situation before there was a universe. Yet it most definitively is here, now. An absence of evidence has no evidentiary 'weight'.
The incredible level if integrated complexity of the universe seems to require conscious action to be so.
For instance the universe is full of variety, and yet we know that iterative systems over time tend towards one of least energy state (entropy). Why are there so many different atoms? Why is most of life and life allowing systems seemingly irreducibly complex? Why hasn't the universe collapsed to the one single least energy thing? Why has it gone the opposite way from the get-go?
And there are subjective evidences of the supernatural. Just as there are such intuited evidences for the multiple physical dimensions beyond those few we normally acknowledge. Just because it doesn't present as a slam-dunk case, does not mean that we should disregard them in preference for nothing at all.
No much evidence exists that Jesus was a real person and certainly no evidence he was the son of the God of the Old Testament who is the creator of the universe. No evidence he died and then got resurrected.
There is much contemporary documentary evidence that the historical person of Jesus existed. Even contemporary detractors and non-believers talked about Him as a real historical person.
The historically sudden rise and spread of Christianity is inexplicable without an initiating figure with some degree of credibility.
Many of the earliest writings by those who were identified as historically contingent, claimed to be eyewitness testimony.
Many of them were martyred for their faith and none of them renounced their beliefs. Nor are there historical accounts of anyone claiming direct witness having recanted under pain of death, which 'punishment' was occurring at the time, and well documented.
I didn't state any beliefs as you falsely claimed. I stated that simply there is no evidence for the religious claims made and no evidence for the things I discussed above. You are confusing me with people who are religious.
You don't know how many people believe in a God but I will agree it's minority that doesn't believe in God. But majorities don't get to decide what is true and what is false just like they don't get to decide how a chemistry or physics book should be written and their contents.
Personal experiences could exists for a lost of things we discuss but they don't count as evidence.
An absence of evidence does not count as evidence, but personal experience does count as evidence.
That is why even in court cases with strong objective evidence, they still call witnesses to support their case, despite how unreliable human witness may be.
You have written an entire article in which you try hard to excuse the beliefs of religious people but you spectaculary fail again and again.
Come on now, do you consider religious apology to be a good tactic in a debate or arguments from ignorance where the gaps in knowledge are always a mystery explained by God until the gaps are filled by science and then you move to the next 'unexplained mystery'.
You remind me of another poster who hasn't understood yet basic science and has tried many times to assert the existence of God to describe the universe and its creation. You ask why there are so many atoms and different elements? Should this be clear by now?
Argument from ignorance.
You assert we don't know how the universe has come to exist and therefore something supernatural must have created it. You need much more than this.
As to how the universe was created this has been solved long time ago.
Still there is no evidence of demons/angels. No evidence of life after death, no evidence for the existence of an intelligent creator, nothing much to justify the beliefs for the supernatural world. Personal experiences and feelings are different to evidence as you and I know.
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: Venkuish1
Not to mention that religious faith is a near-universal experience of humanity. Only a very small percentage of people do not believe in a God or a spiritual reality of some sort. Sorry to say, but you are most definitely in the minority, when you consider all peoples all around the world. The fact that you simply state your beliefs without any qualification could be seen as immature by some, and indeed that is how I view your comments. You are stating what you WANT to believe, and that is not based on any sort of evidence, it is based on your feelings, your desires about what reality must conform to, in order to satisfy your own life philosophy.
Simply put, I feel very confident in refuting your assertions - I've had numerous experiences which prove to me that there is a God, that angels exist, that demons exist. Again, you are in the minority, and if you want to be taken seriously, you should explain yourself a little better, rather than just shouting out your beliefs & walking away.
Long post so I will answer the main points.
How can you refuted anything when I have only stated facts and haven't asserted beliefs or made some wild claims.
And you can't refute other people's claims just by rely on your feelings and your beliefs.
The following are factual.
There is no evidence of the existence of angels and demons.
People frequently present as, and claim, demon possession. It could be mental illness adopting a fiction of an archetype, but it is 'stronger' evidence than a total absence of evidence.
As well, many in desperate physical peril say they have been saved by supernatural forces, and that they have identified as angels. The very survival of those particular people is often inexplicable by other means. Of course this could be fiction, too.
There is no evidence of life after death
Quite frequently people have been resuscitated after brain-death and bodily-death. So, something that is a person seems to have survived after death. This has been objectively documented in many cases.
Interestingly, many (not all) of those who survive such experiences, describe similar narratives at times when consciousness should have ceased. Some have described what they call heaven, and of direct communication with whom they believe to be religious identities.
I think that there can be other reasons for these accounts, but nothing is definitive, so, seeking for the strongest evidence we have, we have to take these things on face-value and cannot reasonably disregard them.
There is no evidence of a supernatural being who is creator of the universe.
There is no evidence as to how the universe came into existence, or of any situation before there was a universe. Yet it most definitively is here, now. An absence of evidence has no evidentiary 'weight'.
The incredible level if integrated complexity of the universe seems to require conscious action to be so.
For instance the universe is full of variety, and yet we know that iterative systems over time tend towards one of least energy state (entropy). Why are there so many different atoms? Why is most of life and life allowing systems seemingly irreducibly complex? Why hasn't the universe collapsed to the one single least energy thing? Why has it gone the opposite way from the get-go?
And there are subjective evidences of the supernatural. Just as there are such intuited evidences for the multiple physical dimensions beyond those few we normally acknowledge. Just because it doesn't present as a slam-dunk case, does not mean that we should disregard them in preference for nothing at all.
No much evidence exists that Jesus was a real person and certainly no evidence he was the son of the God of the Old Testament who is the creator of the universe. No evidence he died and then got resurrected.
There is much contemporary documentary evidence that the historical person of Jesus existed. Even contemporary detractors and non-believers talked about Him as a real historical person.
The historically sudden rise and spread of Christianity is inexplicable without an initiating figure with some degree of credibility.
Many of the earliest writings by those who were identified as historically contingent, claimed to be eyewitness testimony.
Many of them were martyred for their faith and none of them renounced their beliefs. Nor are there historical accounts of anyone claiming direct witness having recanted under pain of death, which 'punishment' was occurring at the time, and well documented.
I didn't state any beliefs as you falsely claimed. I stated that simply there is no evidence for the religious claims made and no evidence for the things I discussed above. You are confusing me with people who are religious.
You don't know how many people believe in a God but I will agree it's minority that doesn't believe in God. But majorities don't get to decide what is true and what is false just like they don't get to decide how a chemistry or physics book should be written and their contents.
Personal experiences could exists for a lost of things we discuss but they don't count as evidence.
An absence of evidence does not count as evidence, but personal experience does count as evidence.
That is why even in court cases with strong objective evidence, they still call witnesses to support their case, despite how unreliable human witness may be.
You have written an entire article in which you try hard to excuse the beliefs of religious people but you spectaculary fail again and again.
Come on now, do you consider religious apology to be a good tactic in a debate or arguments from ignorance where the gaps in knowledge are always a mystery explained by God until the gaps are filled by science and then you move to the next 'unexplained mystery'.
You remind me of another poster who hasn't understood yet basic science and has tried many times to assert the existence of God to describe the universe and its creation. You ask why there are so many atoms and different elements? Should this be clear by now?
Argument from ignorance.
You assert we don't know how the universe has come to exist and therefore something supernatural must have created it. You need much more than this.
As to how the universe was created this has been solved long time ago.
Still there is no evidence of demons/angels. No evidence of life after death, no evidence for the existence of an intelligent creator, nothing much to justify the beliefs for the supernatural world. Personal experiences and feelings are different to evidence as you and I know.
You cannot prove a negative.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I win.
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: Venkuish1
People frequently present as, and claim, demon possession. It could be mental illness adopting a fiction of an archetype, but it is 'stronger' evidence than a total absence of evidence.
As well, many in desperate physical peril say they have been saved by supernatural forces, and that they have identified as angels. The very survival of those particular people is often inexplicable by other means. Of course this could be fiction, too.
There is no evidence of life after death
Quite frequently people have been resuscitated after brain-death and bodily-death. So, something that is a person seems to have survived after death. This has been objectively documented in many cases.
Interestingly, many (not all) of those who survive such experiences, describe similar narratives at times when consciousness should have ceased. Some have described what they call heaven, and of direct communication with whom they believe to be religious identities.
I think that there can be other reasons for these accounts, but nothing is definitive, so, seeking for the strongest evidence we have, we have to take these things on face-value and cannot reasonably disregard them.
There is no evidence of a supernatural being who is creator of the universe.
There is no evidence as to how the universe came into existence, or of any situation before there was a universe. Yet it most definitively is here, now. An absence of evidence has no evidentiary 'weight'.
The incredible level if integrated complexity of the universe seems to require conscious action to be so.
For instance the universe is full of variety, and yet we know that iterative systems over time tend towards one of least energy state (entropy). Why are there so many different atoms? Why is most of life and life allowing systems seemingly irreducibly complex? Why hasn't the universe collapsed to the one single least energy thing? Why has it gone the opposite way from the get-go?
And there are subjective evidences of the supernatural. Just as there are such intuited evidences for the multiple physical dimensions beyond those few we normally acknowledge. Just because it doesn't present as a slam-dunk case, does not mean that we should disregard them in preference for nothing at all.
No much evidence exists that Jesus was a real person and certainly no evidence he was the son of the God of the Old Testament who is the creator of the universe. No evidence he died and then got resurrected.
There is much contemporary documentary evidence that the historical person of Jesus existed. Even contemporary detractors and non-believers talked about Him as a real historical person.
The historically sudden rise and spread of Christianity is inexplicable without an initiating figure with some degree of credibility.
Many of the earliest writings by those who were identified as historically contingent, claimed to be eyewitness testimony.
Many of them were martyred for their faith and none of them renounced their beliefs. Nor are there historical accounts of anyone claiming direct witness having recanted under pain of death, which 'punishment' was occurring at the time, and well documented.
I didn't state any beliefs as you falsely claimed. I stated that simply there is no evidence for the religious claims made and no evidence for the things I discussed above. You are confusing me with people who are religious.
You don't know how many people believe in a God but I will agree it's minority that doesn't believe in God. But majorities don't get to decide what is true and what is false just like they don't get to decide how a chemistry or physics book should be written and their contents.
Personal experiences could exists for a lost of things we discuss but they don't count as evidence.
An absence of evidence does not count as evidence, but personal experience does count as evidence.
That is why even in court cases with strong objective evidence, they still call witnesses to support their case, despite how unreliable human witness may be.
You have written an entire article in which you try hard to excuse the beliefs of religious people but you spectaculary fail again and again.
Come on now, do you consider religious apology to be a good tactic in a debate or arguments from ignorance where the gaps in knowledge are always a mystery explained by God until the gaps are filled by science and then you move to the next 'unexplained mystery'.
You remind me of another poster who hasn't understood yet basic science and has tried many times to assert the existence of God to describe the universe and its creation. You ask why there are so many atoms and different elements? Should this be clear by now?
Argument from ignorance.
You assert we don't know how the universe has come to exist and therefore something supernatural must have created it. You need much more than this.
As to how the universe was created this has been solved long time ago.
Still there is no evidence of demons/angels. No evidence of life after death, no evidence for the existence of an intelligent creator, nothing much to justify the beliefs for the supernatural world. Personal experiences and feelings are different to evidence as you and I know.
I do agree that my post is entirely apologetic in nature.
But I see a massive cognitive dissonance between someone arguing that there is no objective evidence on one side, when the counter-argument is both unevidenced subjectively, and unevidenced objectively.
Science hasn't been able to fill in most of the gaps in its own hypotheses, let alone those of religion or philosophy.
With each answer science uncovers, it has given us many more questions to ask, and just when we thought that science had explained nearly everything in the 1800's, along came new paradigms, and math that told us there were infinite infinites, and we would never know all the answers, revealing we had been 'chasing epicycles' once more.
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: Venkuish1
originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: Venkuish1
Long post so I will answer the main points.
How can you refuted anything when I have only stated facts and haven't asserted beliefs or made some wild claims.
And you can't refute other people's claims just by rely on your feelings and your beliefs.
The following are factual.
There is no evidence of the existence of angels and demons.
People frequently present as, and claim, demon possession. It could be mental illness adopting a fiction of an archetype, but it is 'stronger' evidence than a total absence of evidence.
As well, many in desperate physical peril say they have been saved by supernatural forces, and that they have identified as angels. The very survival of those particular people is often inexplicable by other means. Of course this could be fiction, too.
There is no evidence of life after death
Quite frequently people have been resuscitated after brain-death and bodily-death. So, something that is a person seems to have survived after death. This has been objectively documented in many cases.
Interestingly, many (not all) of those who survive such experiences, describe similar narratives at times when consciousness should have ceased. Some have described what they call heaven, and of direct communication with whom they believe to be religious identities.
I think that there can be other reasons for these accounts, but nothing is definitive, so, seeking for the strongest evidence we have, we have to take these things on face-value and cannot reasonably disregard them.
There is no evidence of a supernatural being who is creator of the universe.
There is no evidence as to how the universe came into existence, or of any situation before there was a universe. Yet it most definitively is here, now. An absence of evidence has no evidentiary 'weight'.
The incredible level if integrated complexity of the universe seems to require conscious action to be so.
For instance the universe is full of variety, and yet we know that iterative systems over time tend towards one of least energy state (entropy). Why are there so many different atoms? Why is most of life and life allowing systems seemingly irreducibly complex? Why hasn't the universe collapsed to the one single least energy thing? Why has it gone the opposite way from the get-go?
And there are subjective evidences of the supernatural. Just as there are such intuited evidences for the multiple physical dimensions beyond those few we normally acknowledge. Just because it doesn't present as a slam-dunk case, does not mean that we should disregard them in preference for nothing at all.
No much evidence exists that Jesus was a real person and certainly no evidence he was the son of the God of the Old Testament who is the creator of the universe. No evidence he died and then got resurrected.
There is much contemporary documentary evidence that the historical person of Jesus existed. Even contemporary detractors and non-believers talked about Him as a real historical person.
The historically sudden rise and spread of Christianity is inexplicable without an initiating figure with some degree of credibility.
Many of the earliest writings by those who were identified as historically contingent, claimed to be eyewitness testimony.
Many of them were martyred for their faith and none of them renounced their beliefs. Nor are there historical accounts of anyone claiming direct witness having recanted under pain of death, which 'punishment' was occurring at the time, and well documented.
I didn't state any beliefs as you falsely claimed. I stated that simply there is no evidence for the religious claims made and no evidence for the things I discussed above. You are confusing me with people who are religious.
You don't know how many people believe in a God but I will agree it's minority that doesn't believe in God. But majorities don't get to decide what is true and what is false just like they don't get to decide how a chemistry or physics book should be written and their contents.
Personal experiences could exists for a lost of things we discuss but they don't count as evidence.
An absence of evidence does not count as evidence, but personal experience does count as evidence.
That is why even in court cases with strong objective evidence, they still call witnesses to support their case, despite how unreliable human witness may be.
You have written an entire article in which you try hard to excuse the beliefs of religious people but you spectaculary fail again and again.
Come on now, do you consider religious apology to be a good tactic in a debate or arguments from ignorance where the gaps in knowledge are always a mystery explained by God until the gaps are filled by science and then you move to the next 'unexplained mystery'.
You remind me of another poster who hasn't understood yet basic science and has tried many times to assert the existence of God to describe the universe and its creation. You ask why there are so many atoms and different elements? Should this be clear by now?
Argument from ignorance.
You assert we don't know how the universe has come to exist and therefore something supernatural must have created it. You need much more than this.
As to how the universe was created this has been solved long time ago.
Still there is no evidence of demons/angels. No evidence of life after death, no evidence for the existence of an intelligent creator, nothing much to justify the beliefs for the supernatural world. Personal experiences and feelings are different to evidence as you and I know.
You cannot prove a negative.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I win.
Proving a negative is a logical fallacy employed by religionists. They often claim it cannot be priced that God doesn't exists...
So... No! Not really! The burden of proof is on the claimant and so far no evidence of the supernatural has been proved including the existence of God, demons and angels, life after death.