Why no disclosure?

Originally posted by sleeper

Originally posted by w1kdtr1p
And am wondering whether, Alien(s) or ET's in general are thee ONES responsible for not disclosing the issue. They are at the crux of the issue anyways. We want confirmation, but they won't give it to us.

Absolutely, the aliens hold all the cards-----no government can stop them from showing themselves----but they are not going to disrupt our economy, religious beliefs, and the foundations of what we believe our history to be-----that would be traumatic and chaotic-----they will do it slowly for our benefit-----how slowly depends how long it takes to establish a foot hold in space.

Perhaps sooner, but I doubt it.

In response to this, I propose that aliens do not have any respect for our economy, government, society, or belief structures, and couldn't care less whether any or all of the above simply crumbled to bits. It's not likely they will ever do anything for our benefit.

If there's one thing I'm tired of hearing people say, it's "Maybe what we think is evil isn't evil to aliens." I don't really care what aliens do and don't think is evil; I'm not an alien! I don't live on an alient planet. I don't follow alien culture. They should be considering what our customs are since they're coming to our planet. Maybe aliens like being abducted where they come from, but in human society, we don't. You don't just walk into someone's home and start telling them how they need to act, feel, and believe just because you've been doing things that way for who knows how long.

Sorry if I went off topic here... I'm not aiming that at anyone in particular. I just get worked up sometimes...

I think aliens should disclose themselves.

EDIT: Adding to my rant.

MCory1, I think a big part of it is that we don't really know how to get the job done. Things like standing on the side of a road with signs and passing out flyers, standing in front of stores to get people to sign petitions, and marching in protest are usually things that get a negative response from the average person. Most will just blow it off as cult activity that will never get anything accomplished.

[edit on 15-4-2005 by CloudlessKnight]

[edit on 15-4-2005 by CloudlessKnight]

For discussion's sake, what would be a reasonable way to achieve disclosure of whatever this phenomena may be? Anybody at all, just throw something out to think over.

reasonable is not a good way to talk to people these days, they don't listen. Rather they don't want to listen at all. Except a few. I guess the only way you can get your word across is through TV and radio but you know someone somewhere will twist the words and you end up looking like a nutcass. Then theres the web and with the literally trillions of pages of UFO phenomena hows everyone going to find your website out of the billions of other websites

However you could create a computer virus to wave a hand over humanity and show them what life can really be like. But then again I don't think the head hunters would like that very much, would they??? But not everyone has a computer so it would be a pointless worldwide effort.

Pigeons, Thats it use pigeons they can fly anywhere then at the end of the message attach a PS. saying "This pigeon will self explode in 5...4...3...2...1....SPLAT", I promise people will start asking questions.

Seriously though a combination of all (except the pigeon one) of these would result in "average joe" to ask some serious questions, don't you think.

Question is how can you contact ETs??? To contact the world to show themselves and let us take pictures as proof but with the army gunned up to the teeth I think the ETs might be a little cautious, hell if I had a missle shot at my UFO and fighter jets flying after me i'd be a little less likely to want to land too, don't you think???

Well, for one, I don't think we could or would need to contact the ETs. It would definitely be a benefit: "Hey guys, right about half-time during the SuperBowl, right after the big show, why doncha drop down and sing a couple of songs with Britney?". That would definitely get people's attention. That would be interesting as well, the computer aspect. Not necessarily a virus on everyone's computer, but maybe a flood of emails to the news stations and to various government officials. I think I might have an idea, but I'd like to hear a few more people speak up and see if there is truly any interest. Don't get your hopes up too much, it isn't anything too spectacular by any stretch of the imagination. But I want to hear other peoples ideas before I get too comfortable on my soapbox.

CloudlessKnight, I didn't see your edit before I replied a few minutes ago. That's one thing I'm trying to see about, is getting at least someone thinking in that direction. Think of it like a free writing session: come up with some kind of idea. Maybe we can all get our heads together and come up with something that won't work flat out. Then we tweak it a little here, a little more there. Might work, then change this and that. Might take years or something, maybe even take so long it isn't necessary anymore. But there is a definable problem here: getting the information out to the general public without losing credibility. Every problem has some solution. It just takes some creative thinking.

It's that losing credibility part that's the biggest hill to get over, I think. We're up against a giant propaganda machine that's been doing what it does best for more years than we've even been alive. Citizens have been brought up by the government and society to stay away from things that aren't the social norm, so it's very hard to get anyone to take us seriously.

Is it win the people then win the media or win the media and you win the people? Flooding the media network websites with e-mails might be a good way to get some attention, but would be very difficult to stage. I'm not saying it couldn't be done though. With enough requests, networks might believe they are seeing a shift in public interest, and would probably report on anything if they thought it would up their ratings. On the other hand, those journalists with a "reputation" to uphold probably wouldn't touch the subject with a ten foot pole.

Maybe it's win enough people to win the media to win more people?

In any case, I'm interested.

In my opinion you're on the right track Cloudless; it's kind of a combination of winning the media and winning the people. That's basically the train of thought that I'm going on at least. Any other ideas anyone?

"The revolution won't be televised".

There's been plenty of social revolutions without the media involved
initially. I'm thinking of the East European 'people's revolution' that led to
the Berlin wall coming down. Certain things were certainly documented
(I saw a documentary) but not blasted all over the place at the time (89/90).

barney

That's very true; I hadn't thought about that. And that is quite a large change to be undertaken without massive media help. That's definitely something to think about for a bit...

The Peter Jenning's primetime special a month ago was a hint, in my opinion, how disclosure is going to come about. The theme of this 2-hour segment was credibility. People deemed credible by society(police, military and commercial pilots) who witnessed UFO activity as well as ET's were respectably portrayed. Only one debunker was on the show. With this type of programming being used we will slowly be awakened to the fact that we are not alone. Average-thinking people only believe what their five senses tell them to be true, or take the word of credible people they can trust. I'm not saying they are stupid, just content with what they perceive. I believe the disclosure process is slowly gaining momentum and hopefully skepticism will become a thing of the past.

I don't know, I heard a lot of people berate Peter Jennings for that special. I didn't catch it myself unfortunately, so I can say one way or another. I also heard that it didn't seem to be taking the ideas very seriously. www.disclosureproject.org... has a rather strong article in this regards. Anyways, I do agree that if left alone it will be a slow process. I do also think it can be helped along quite well though.

Is that what all of this research is about? Just so we all can sit around, have a couple of beers and complain? I'm sorry to go off on such a tangent, but that's one thing that I always heard was one of the things that made America so great: if you don't like something, then you can do something to change it. I don't see why all of this information isn't being compiled and thrown out en masse to the media and to other people who can make it widely known.

Sometimes I think it's more so that when disclosure finally does happen (whether from the government, or the aliens), we can sit back and say, "I told you so."

Seriously though, it's hard to fight the ridicule of the subject that's been done for over half a century. No matter how serious you are, you mention you're a UFO researcher and people look at you like you're nuts. Not many are willing to put their jobs, their reputation, etc. on the line to pursue a Chicken Little tactic of proclaiming it to the masses.

So then, why do we do all of this? Well, for me, it's to simply share the kinds of things that convinced me. I had doubts even about my own childhood sighting (only one I've ever had btw). I still do, to be honest. Don't think I'd be human if I didn't second guess myself. I know firsthand how ambiguous memory can be. That's why I try and concentrate on the paper trail....and if anything I put out there adds to someone's understanding of the issue, then hey, that effort has been for something.

Not many are willing to put their jobs, their reputation, etc. on the line to pursue a Chicken Little tactic of proclaiming it to the masses.

That's very true. However, I think that there's by far enough believers and witnesses to where if it were organized well enough there wouldn't be a need to worry about that. I mean, if you're in a room with 10 people for example, and you start shouting "I seen an alien!" then 9 people will look at you like you're crazy. If 2 people start shouting it, same thing. But you get 4 or 5 and then the others start to think about it. I think there's a reasonable enough population ratio of believers to non-believers to where the cover could be pulled off of it.

I've never had a first-hand encounter or sighting myself, but I've had this gut feeling for as long as I can remember that something is most definitely out there, or down here for that matter. It's just been getting a lot stronger lately, and I'm beginning to think it's getting to be about time something was done. That's the main reason I started this thread, and one of the main reasons I came to this site in the first place.

I like the way you look at your research Gaz; there needs to be more of that mentality in all fields, regardless of the "validity" of it. And I don't know who you're trying to kid:

Don't think I'd be human if I didn't second guess myself.

That's horse-puckeys right there. I've only been here a couple of days and I already know you're not human.

Originally posted by CloudlessKnight
I'm still going to be one of those people that believes something is going on whether the matter is disclosed or not. But I would still like some disclosure. It's like when your big brother reaches over and smacks you behind your parent's back... you know he did it, but you want him to fess up to it so he'll get in trouble. We already know Big Brother is up to something, we just want them to admit it already and take responsibility for their actions.

Whatever the cultural, religious, or economic shock that will ensue after disclosure, I still think it's a necessary step that we all need to take. After all, if truths from disclosure would change the things that people believe, wouldn't it be wrong to let people continue to believe the lies that they put on themselves?

A lot of people don't want disclosure, they just want to be comfortable. These are the self-proclaimed "simple folk." Those with the attitudes of "If I can't see it then it can't hurt me" that just want to go to work in the morning then come home in their nice cars to their pretty house and their pretty lawns. Of course, these are the same kind of people that like to pretend that so many third world countries aren't living in poverty, that people do not die every day from starvation, that children never get kidnapped or abused, that women never get raped, and the list goes on...

Personally, I think that in order to better ourselves, some comforts (such as materialistic ideals and religious views that hold man high on a pedistle of superiority) must be sacrificed. I think it's the sacrifices that come with disclosure that people aren't willing to risk.

Its sad because these sacrifices that people dont wanna risk would actually create peace and end all those things you listed.

Originally posted by MCory1
Well, for one, I don't think we could or would need to contact the ETs. It would definitely be a benefit: "Hey guys, right about half-time during the SuperBowl, right after the big show, why doncha drop down and sing a couple of songs with Britney?". That would definitely get people's attention. That would be interesting as well, the computer aspect. Not necessarily a virus on everyone's computer, but maybe a flood of emails to the news stations and to various government officials. I think I might have an idea, but I'd like to hear a few more people speak up and see if there is truly any interest. Don't get your hopes up too much, it isn't anything too spectacular by any stretch of the imagination. But I want to hear other peoples ideas before I get too comfortable on my soapbox.

In no offense at all let me say this to you, why dont you or people like you realise or come to the understanding that maybe there's much more to life than the superbowl or having a nice job and making money. Dont you think that some of these alien's care about such trivial things? Ok so we know they are here now what makes you think there is only one race considering the vastness of space there is probly one hell of a lot of different races. so say 20 races are here and there are 2 groups of 10 one evil one good. If the good ones are here to help us dont you think they discovered the meaning of life and are facilitation that action in helping us? and here we are still stuck thinking about trivial things that are not even close to the "Big Picture" that noone seems to see.

Don't get me wrong; I personally don't care too much about those trivial things. I haven't watched a SuperBowl in years (and missing the Janet Jackson thing really irked me...); I merely used that as an example of something that would be really hard to keep a wrap on. I mean think about it--you've got the one of the biggest sporting events in the world, millions of people watching it. How would they play it off if a disk landed at the 50 yard line? Not that it would happen, that was merely an example I was making.

here we are still stuck thinking about trivial things that are not even close to the "Big Picture" that noone seems to see.

That's one of the reasons I'd like to see everything out in the wash. After the initial shock of everything wore off, I think people would start to see the big picture. People wouldn't be as worried about the trivial things. At least I'd like to think that--I haven't gotten cynical (or realistic) enough to think otherwise yet. Yeah, it might be a naive way of thinking, but I like to be optimistic on that much at least.

Okay, there doesn't seem to be too many people really throwing any ideas around about how to maybe get something going, which could mean that either it isn't really something that people are really wanting to push for or I just haven't gained any credibility yet here (which I perfectly understand.) Of course, it could also mean that everyone already has their own ideas they're trying to get into action and they don't want to show their hand and let someone stop them or someone else gets the credit. At any rate, I'll go ahead and throw my idea out into the ring and see what you guys might think.

This would need to be a concerted effort by a fairly large number of people. If it were done by a small handful it would take far too long and would be much less effective. The more the merrier basically.

The second condition would also probably be the primary stopping point for most. No anonymity. Everyone involved must be willing to fully disclose themselves--the point of it is seeking openness on the part of the government, it would look really bad if there's 50 John Doe's taking credit for it. Yes, there is the fear of losing credibility, and there's also the fear of retribution from the government itself. But if it's executed correctly and swiftly enough, there wouldn't be enough time for anyone to retaliate, and it would hit the media soon enough to turn the tables on those declaring everyone involved a lunatic.

There's essentially two phases to this, going in tandem. The first phase is the "grass roots" effort. This boils down to swamping news agencies and local government officials with emails, letters, and phone calls asking for information regarding various events that we know have happened, such as Roswell. This doesn't have to be an outrageous number of people, just enough so that these people know something is going on. Just kind of rocking the boat a little bit. No parading on the streets, maybe a little campaigning with friends and relatives that can be trusted, but nothing extraordinarily overt.

The other portion of this is the big part, and the part that would entail a tremendous amount of effort and a large number of people. This is also probably where I'm going to sound like I'm going off the deep end, but I'm pretty sure it would work, and it is probably also the only way to get disclosure without the government coming right out on their own. So, I'm gonna take my dive here...

1) Mailing addresses of all news locations in all media. Not just Reuters and AP. Everything from CNN down to the little weekly almanac in PoDunk USA. Everywhere as well: London, Paris, Bangkok, Sydney, Johannesburg, Berlin, Moscow. Everything in between. Going to all the little nowhere towns around the world is definitely not plausible, but I think covering the 50 states is not too much to ask, along with Canada and the large cities in most every other country. Anything aside from newstations could be helpful as well, from universities to corporations. Anything that might be able to take a public stand.

2) Compile massive documentation of every event possible. Sworn affadavits, photographs, newspaper clippings, anything that can be put on printed paper or in a file that can be emailed. And it needs to be as organized and sourced as Gaz did with the Roswell papers. The final document also needs to be in a "professional" format, something along the lines of MLA or whatever major research articles are done in (MLA is the only style I've worked with, and even then just for English classes.)

3) Translate into French, Italian, German, Chinese, Japanese, and Spanish. These are probably the most popular languages worldwide. It cannot be strictly English; there should be nothing that can be held against the document at all. There also needs to be PDF and HTML versions of each translation for digital distribution.

4) Distribute the document in its various translations and formats to all of the addresses. SOMEONE is bound to take notice. SOMEONE is bound to start poking and prodding. And by this time there should have been enough done from the "grass roots" effort to start piquing these peoples interest and start making them think that it might be worth it to look into it.

So that's the plan I'm putting forth. I'm sure there's problems with it. As far as the logistical aspects, I don't think that's too big a deal, it's just a matter of finding people who are interested in doing it. From what I've seen I'm beginning to think that there isn't many people who really do want it to come out, and I mean general people--not just those who are actively trying to keep it a secret. That's my two cents on the subject. Anyone wants to comment or question I'd love to hear it.

I believe if enough people all worked at this together we can get disclosure but its gonna take hard cold evidence shown to the world basically saying "look they are here and I have the proof" Im thinking of all the military, nasa, fbi, cia ect. people coming forward with thier stories and papers/documents and proof. Look at it like this we trusted some of those generals and scientists ect. with nuclear missiles and our life, we should trust them now too. www.disclosureproject.com... is actually doing just that, maybe if this was exposed to the world...what are your guys thought's on this? To me this is hard cold evidence and fact but there are so many people who dont know this stuff and if they did well the world would demand the government to spill the beans themselves with every little dirty detail some of which we may or may not know about.

Originally posted by MCory1
That's one of the reasons I'd like to see everything out in the wash. After the initial shock of everything wore off, I think people would start to see the big picture. People wouldn't be as worried about the trivial things. At least I'd like to think that--I haven't gotten cynical (or realistic) enough to think otherwise yet. Yeah, it might be a naive way of thinking, but I like to be optimistic on that much at least.

I think theres are alot some of these aliens could teach us, I mean they must have been around alot longer than us being more advanced in technology ect. thats a given, so I bet they have the secrets to life itself I mean they hold the key to technology their science must then explain what we perceive as metaphysical they know about god, spirituality ect. and they can explain it all in their higher knowlege of science with facts and demonstrations to prove it, that their culture take advantage of and we know nothing about, its apart of thier daily life that makes you think a bit...I mean how important is a football game when you have here the answers to god, life, creation itself every subject you can think of in very highly developed nature. knowing all that were just young children in the galactic sense fighting over who won the cup or who gets to the moon first what territory is mine or what can I take. fighting and killing eachother. when we dont have a full sense of the world around us. The thing is not very many people see the big picture that is why we are in such peril I know alot of you guys/gals really deep down care for humanity would love to seed out the selfish/greed ect. ect. maybe we all need a snap into reality like "Look this is what's up...you dont stop your gonna destroy your beautiful world and all its unique life and your science doesnt understand the implactaions of destroying your world would have on the galixy not to mention all the loss of life" for all we know it could really hurt and effect other planets everything im talking about is the big picture really. The point is there are so many things we just dont know about and if we did know about these things it would change the world forever for the better.

I think most of this would only require the dedication of a group of hard-working, determined, dedicated individuals who are willing to take some time from their daily lives, with no pay, to support the movement. With the right people in the right places, it could be done.

There may be somewhat of a financial delima, however. Translators cost money. Yes, you can find translating programs online, but those things are riddled with grammatical errors. If you want it done right, a real life translator is the way to go. Compiling documentation might also cost money? If somehow you got backing from organizations like the Disclosure Project, one might not have to do all that documentation themselves... There's all sorts of such groups that might be interested in backing you up if they actually thought that your efforts might amount to something. Then all we'd have to worry about is getting the attention of the people.

Oh, for e-mailing... Aside from getting lots of people to flood all media networks with e-mails, I'm sure you could find mass e-mailing programs online. You know, the same type of thing that spammers use to e-mail hundreds or thousands of people at a time. A nicely written letter could be presented to as many networks as we could find addresses for, all in one send. And if you really wanted to get people's attention (the bad with the good), you could start mass e-mailing average people in the hope that they won't delete your message with all their other spam. Heheh.

I'm serious about that program though.

EDIT: A thought. What if a sort of federation of organizations could be founded? A way to get researchers and different members of already organized groups to work together...


[edit on 16-4-2005 by CloudlessKnight]

[edit on 16-4-2005 by CloudlessKnight]

DarkCyrus:

I believe if enough people all worked at this together we can get disclosure but its gonna take hard cold evidence shown to the world basically saying "look they are here and I have the proof" Im thinking of all the military, nasa, fbi, cia ect. people coming forward with thier stories and papers/documents and proof.

It might not require solid evidence depending on the route we go. If we try and convince everyone directly that ET's exist then we'd need solid proof, something much better than a couple of shaky video clips and 50 year old documents. We'd truly need a smoking gun, something like irrefutable video footage.

If we just try and convince everyone that the government has proof that ET's exist, then we can show them plenty of evidence of discrepencies in the past. We can prove that there have been massive coverups with many things that at least seem to be ET in nature, such as Roswell. We don't have to convince everybody, just enough people to be able to rock the boat a little bit. And we don't necessarily have to convince them beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a coverup involving aliens. We just have to convince them that something funky is going on that should be looked into.

I won't go into much detail on your second post, but I will say that I completely agree with you. Any civilization advanced enough to travel the stars (or even just planets) definitely has much to teach us. Even if they're hostile and won't share their technology, we could indirectly learn a lot about our own humanity (or lack thereof.)

CloudlessKnight:
Yes, you're right, it would take a group exactly as you're defining. It would take a lot of work, there would be little if any return (immediately at least.) No financial gain from it at all. That will probably eliminate a large portion of people who could be tremendous assets to the project.

Financial logistics are somewhat of a problem in a lot of respects. Translation would have to be done by members who are fluent in the languages, unless there are financial contributions of some kind. Even then, that might not be wise. The person translating it might be involved with the government in some way--which is another consideration altogether, being 'infiltrated' by someone who will tip our hand too early. Anyways...the financial aspects of the rest of the project probably wouldn't be too difficult to handle. Shipping costs for the document could be divided up between the members and handled individually--depending on the final size of the volume, it would probably only cost between $5-$10 (US) to ship per copy, it could be printed on a normal desktop printer, and each member could be responsible for a certain number of copies. That all depends on how many members the organization is able to get though.

Sending mass email is not a problem. I've written a couple of programs to handle that myself--it really is one of the simpler programs to write whereas most software development environments contain the necessary libraries to handle emailing. I hadn't directly thought of using a mass mailer program, nor contacting the public in such a fashion. That is most definitely something to consider. The odds of it really getting through to a lot of people are slim, but it could be very much worthwhile.

A federation would be a great idea. However, it might be somewhat difficult to get many people to drop their own personal interests in attaining this goal. I'm sure that as has already been discussed, a lot of the organizations would realize that they wouldn't be able to sell their products after disclosure. Also, they would probably be wanting to take more control and try and take more credit for it. It also might be somewhat difficult to get a lot of the groups to just focus on "something is going on" instead of pushing their own theories. That is definitely something to look into as well though. Can anyone think off hand who might be interested in a federation of this sort? Disclosure Project might; and they might be a strong group to get into this as well. They seem to have a strong foundation already, althought I really can't comment too much on how they might be going about everything or how they would get along with other groups.