How can atheism have morality?

a reply to: Xtrozero

I do find it is interesting that in big cities there seems to be a lack of morals lately, maybe it’s the water

Maybe it's because of the economy where people are forced into criminal situations (stealing) just to survive or have a roof over their heads.

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: Xtrozero

I do find it is interesting that in big cities there seems to be a lack of morals lately, maybe it’s the water

Maybe it's because of the economy where people are forced into criminal situations (stealing) just to survive or have a roof over their heads.

I will go with the economy argument.
So much poverty and misery will eventually lead to crime and acts that most people want to avoid regardless of what the law says (not to steal) and what Jesus and his message is (for the religious people). Human survival and self preservation are often above any laws and ethics.

originally posted by: KnowItAllKnowNothin
Just finished reading page 23, and kinda surprised that everyone is still dancing around the bush.

Has anyone figured-out where morals come from, or what they are ?

Sorry to not reply to the OP, but am unable to get the sense of it.

It's easy.

Morals are a result of the interaction between humans and the development of values and principles as we are getting older based on the interactions we have and how we use our brains. You don't need superstition and the believe in God to have morals.

a reply to: Venkuish1

Thanks.

A nice succinct dance, you have.

Can we remove half of the words, and get " warmer " ?

a reply to: Xtrozero

Why? Should I be running up and down the street naked or something.

Would that be immoral in your mind?

You and others have expressed that religious people do good out of fear of going to hell and I find that so Old Testament 13th century thinking.
....
I’m sure some denominations preach about Hell etc. But I have never met anyone in fear of going to hell.

I don't believe you.
I know of more religious people trying not being bad to avoid hell, more than them trying to do good things to get into heaven.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: Xtrozero

Why? Should I be running up and down the street naked or something.

Would that be immoral in your mind?

You and others have expressed that religious people do good out of fear of going to hell and I find that so Old Testament 13th century thinking.
....
I’m sure some denominations preach about Hell etc. But I have never met anyone in fear of going to hell.

I don't believe you.
I know of more religious people trying not being bad to avoid hell, more than them trying to do good things to get into heaven.

OMG -- they so fear death.

They fear the judgement.

Seriously, they live their life for "death" -- everything is about the judgement at the end.

So much guilt - "am I good enough" -- "will God forgive me cuz I stole a candy bar once" -- OMG I had an immoral thought, I thought my friend's husband was hot".

It's insane.

The ones not like this are just going through the motions -- cuz it's habit, easier, convenient, have no other life, etc.

originally posted by: Annee

OMG -- they so fear death.

They fear the judgement.

OMG, you are wrong, both of you gals have really warped views. We can go round and round, but what is the good here?

originally posted by: Sookiechacha

I don't believe you.
I know of more religious people trying not being bad to avoid hell, more than them trying to do good things to get into heaven.

I don't believe you either, so here we are...

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Annee

OMG -- they so fear death.

They fear the judgement.

OMG, you are wrong, both of you gals have really warped views. We can go round and round, but what is the good here?

Oh, but, but -- we know about religion -- we wouldn't know how to behave without it. s/

Religion is built on fear and guilt.

dp

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: Xtrozero

Why? Should I be running up and down the street naked or something.

Would that be immoral in your mind?

You and others have expressed that religious people do good out of fear of going to hell and I find that so Old Testament 13th century thinking.
....
I’m sure some denominations preach about Hell etc. But I have never met anyone in fear of going to hell.

I don't believe you.
I know of more religious people trying not being bad to avoid hell, more than them trying to do good things to get into heaven.

OMG -- they so fear death.

They fear the judgement.

Seriously, they live their life for "death" -- everything is about the judgement at the end.

So much guilt - "am I good enough" -- "will God forgive me cuz I stole a candy bar once" -- OMG I had an immoral thought, I thought my friend's husband was hot".

It's insane.

The ones not like this are just going through the motions -- cuz it's habit, easier, convenient, have no other life, etc.

Yep, guilt, shame, pious projection, just like the people pushing god and religion in this thread...but mostly, fear of death.

BIG TIME!

That's been my experience!

originally posted by: Sookiechacha

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: Xtrozero

Why? Should I be running up and down the street naked or something.

Would that be immoral in your mind?

You and others have expressed that religious people do good out of fear of going to hell and I find that so Old Testament 13th century thinking.
....
I’m sure some denominations preach about Hell etc. But I have never met anyone in fear of going to hell.

I don't believe you.
I know of more religious people trying not being bad to avoid hell, more than them trying to do good things to get into heaven.

OMG -- they so fear death.

They fear the judgement.

Seriously, they live their life for "death" -- everything is about the judgement at the end.

So much guilt - "am I good enough" -- "will God forgive me cuz I stole a candy bar once" -- OMG I had an immoral thought, I thought my friend's husband was hot".

It's insane.

The ones not like this are just going through the motions -- cuz it's habit, easier, convenient, have no other life, etc.

Yep, guilt, shame, pious projection, just like the people pushing god and religion in this thread...but mostly, fear of death.

BIG TIME!

That's been my experience!

I'm sure there are many who go to church for companionship -- who really aren't interested in the tenets of a particular faith.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: HKMarrow

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: daskakik
The funny thing about that is that it doesn't have anything to do with atheism or religion.

the two deadliest regimes of all time were ones that banned religion. That's not mere coincidence.

originally posted by: daskakik Yes, atrocities were done with people bearing crosses but it wasn't done for the sake of what the cross meant.

This is the key distinction. Jesus's words would not condone violently conquering other civilizations. Evolution and survival of the fittest would condone such a thing though. In Mein Kempf, Hitler talked about his inspiration from evolution theory:

"If nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile"
-Hitler, Mein Kempf

Atheism and all its ideological cohorts will inevitably lead to this type of conclusion. That is how Stalin, Mao, and Hitler were able to justify their genocide.

Must have forgotten Jesus in the book of Revelation. Or, perhaps forgotten that Jesus claimed to be one with the God of the Old Testament. Which was actually why he was executed, according to the bible.

IMO Jesus simply pissed off the wrong people and we all know who they were.

originally posted by: HKMarrow

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: HKMarrow

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: daskakik
The funny thing about that is that it doesn't have anything to do with atheism or religion.

the two deadliest regimes of all time were ones that banned religion. That's not mere coincidence.

originally posted by: daskakik Yes, atrocities were done with people bearing crosses but it wasn't done for the sake of what the cross meant.

This is the key distinction. Jesus's words would not condone violently conquering other civilizations. Evolution and survival of the fittest would condone such a thing though. In Mein Kempf, Hitler talked about his inspiration from evolution theory:

"If nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile"
-Hitler, Mein Kempf

Atheism and all its ideological cohorts will inevitably lead to this type of conclusion. That is how Stalin, Mao, and Hitler were able to justify their genocide.

Must have forgotten Jesus in the book of Revelation. Or, perhaps forgotten that Jesus claimed to be one with the God of the Old Testament. Which was actually why he was executed, according to the bible.

IMO Jesus simply pissed off the wrong people and we all know who they were.

Yeah, he pissed off the religious people, by acting above the law. Lawless guy he was, it's written in the bible that some people thought he was possed by a demon, or in league with Satan.
Finally excuted by the church of his time, for blasphemy.

Then, in Revelation, he speaks again from the position of the same war like God that he claimed he was a human incarnation of. Vowing to let the birds gorge themselves on the bodies of those he kills.

Say it (sanhedrin) you know you want to.😆

To make distinction, it was not just religious people who put jesus to trial, it would have been a committee of heavily legalistic scholars/ a priesthood, who would have distinguished the difference between a foreigner making a mess or one of their nationals, and would have distinguished the difference, even, between a charge of "sorcery" or blasphemy. A charge of sorcery could have been applied more liberally, this is not to say flinging ones finger everywhere and accusing one of "sorcery" only that "sorcery" (kakon poion) could simply be referred to as "criminality." Ironically enough, it is Christians who more liberally apply charges (what were calling them here) or assertions of "blasphemy" as a general recognition of someone speaking things contrary to religious faith in their vicinity.

This was not a matter of faith or zeal but heavy heavy legalism, and there is nothing in the public eye that would have been comparable to what was done back then. There is even a distinction among many Christians of the day might not make between this and being "like a pharisee" that one says in conversations for being generalistically nitpicky because even though the Sanhedrin persecuted christ along with the pharisees, the Sanhedrin were pooled from available sadducees and as it is said, there is not much information about the specific provisions of the sadducees back then between the pharisees and so "like a sadducee" is a philosophical non-occurance.

There would have been a difference between this and your average jew on the street that Christians often don't make when saying "yeah one of them" in reference to one of the distinctions above. So who might get the modern day distinction? The tunnel builders under "770?" lol. .. Lack of big obvious smiley emoticon notwithstanding, "I don't know maybe!!!":

youtu.be...🙂


As to the argument about modal collapse between christianity and atheism, one might assert that that absolute atheism leads to modal collapse due to an inherent human tendency to struggle for relevance leading to conflicting novelty because of "every man a king" syndrome and that simple logical ethics are barely enough to get it all together while at the same time, absolute religiosity leads to a system of favoritism and exclusion leading to collapse. One could then assert that the best solution is plurality of circumstances where there is enough atheism to keep individual wills from moving in and making insistence and enough of a solid basis of return for when all of the novelty becomes a bit much.

One could also make the case that an occurance of absolute atheism within a framework of religion in a pluralistic society could make an interesting observation as in seeing what new forms arise or answering the question, "would my individual decision affect the meaning of the framework?" and somesuch other. ..

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: Xtrozero
...
Morals. on the other hand, are instincts that are developed through the experience of empathy and the application of altruism. ...

Gettin warm Sookie !

This is why the OP is so difficult to grapple with : it contains the false premise that morals are handed-down to us from an exterior source.

That's the lion-tamer, keeping the hungry and caged lion at bay, with the whip.
That's the killer-whale doing flippy-flops, as the " trainer " has imprisoned them, and is controlling their food-source.

Give them a chance, and : chomp !

We somehow seem to know, instinctively, what is right and wrong.
When we are calm : it's easier to hear that inner-voice.
When we are in chaos : it's more difficult, and we may be forced to act quickly, in a way that we otherwise may not.

It comes from deep inside, but it is not always manifest on the " outside. "

originally posted by: Annee

Oh, but, but -- we know about religion -- we wouldn't know how to behave without it. s/

Religion is built on fear and guilt.

I never said that, and it is you all that assumed something that I never once even implied. I said since the vast majority of people are religious then our morals are religious based. I didn't say good, bad, or different.

You also assume "the right way to behave" is whatever you think it should be. As I said several times humans are not a very nice species and the so-called "right way" could be something you would never want to see.

originally posted by: KnowItAllKnowNothin

It comes from deep inside, but it is not always manifest on the " outside. "

So what has been going on in the big cities? Seems their morals are lacking as is religion there. So what is coming from deep inside there?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: KnowItAllKnowNothin

It comes from deep inside, but it is not always manifest on the " outside. "

So what has been going on in the big cities? Seems their morals are lacking as is religion there. So what is coming from deep inside there?

Already answered above.
See post @quintessentone

a reply to: Xtrozero

DonknowStro.

Am in a big city myself, and come across all types.

One potential problem is that we don't educate our young to " drop-in ", and take time to contemplate, ponder, and tune-in to what our intuition may be messaging.

It's not easy to hear the subtle, when we are being blasted by all manner of noisy distractions.

Everywhere I go, shadows and shells, staring into their black-mirrors, scrolling endlessly.

Am not able to speak-of what their experience might be.

But there are many beautiful smiling faces as well.

Are we still talking about morality ?

Have fallen twice in the last few years, and both times, there was a stranger who was immediately concerned for my well-being.

What is that ?
Where does it come from ?
It's beyond race, religion, caste, and whatever else nonsense us silly hairless apes invent.

You would do the same.
Not because of doctrine, or because you were told to : you just instinctively feel the imperative to help a fellow man.

a reply to: Xtrozero
You may not remember it but you did
www.abovetopsecret.com...
this is one example:

When religion was absent humans really went deep down the path of evil...

www.abovetopsecret.com...
Here is another:

This is why when we look throughout history when we were at our worst was during times that lacked religion.

You even say it in this very post

As I said several times humans are not a very nice species and the so-called "right way" could be something you would never want to see.

What else could you be saying, given the first 2 examples, other than "we wouldn't know how to behave without it."

originally posted by: quintessentone

Maybe it's because of the economy where people are forced into criminal situations (stealing) just to survive or have a roof over their heads.

Not in America...