How can atheism have morality?

originally posted by: HKMarrow

Ah, I have indeed misunderstood you. So, are you basically saying that religion provides a decent control mechanism against chaos, no matter if that religion is of the state, or some deity, it can provide some order in potential chaos. And, even if that order be at the expense of another group of people, it will be less chaotic then every man for himself?

I agree that is part to it all. If we can all agree that morals good or bad are taught then I suggest faith is a tool hard to beat in setting things into an unbreakable concrete base. As I said before, Kant is great but very few actually read him, much less study him. Now take that to another level of let’s say the Bible where people have bible study, they memorize it and spend a good deal of time contemplating at great lengths.

Now maintain those morals for 1000 years and you end up with something that stands the test of time.

The problem I have with a totally atheist type society is what do they base their morals on and what tools do they use to truly motivate people to follow them.

originally posted by: Annee

No - God is not needed to be moral.

I didn’t say anything about God, I talked about religion that have a good fundamental base of morals built in for 1000s of years.

Where did you get your morals from? Were you born with them? Why so many today that lack them?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Annee

No - God is not needed to be moral.

I didn’t say anything about God, I talked about religion that have a good fundamental base of morals built in for 1000s of years.

Where did you get your morals from? Were you born with them? Why so many today that lack them?

Elephants and wolves don't have religion either.

originally posted by: Annee

Elephants and wolves don't have religion either.

How do you know? They also do not need morals since they live by animal instinct. Unfortunately, humans don't. Your reply has nothing to do with what I asked you...did you reply to the right post?

a reply to: Xtrozero

I didn’t say anything about God, I talked about religion that have a good fundamental base of morals built in for 1000s of years.

It used to be that the government WAS religion. Your king, or whatever, was a "son of god" literally, and that's one very good reason why you should fear him, and never question him.

Throughout time, governments have moved toward serving the needs of the elite and having a pact with religions to keep the masses in fear and obeyance. They need religion to train them to accept their fate and have no high expectations of becoming like an elite or challenging and/or replacing the elite.

The 10 Commandments is good example of how governments rely on religion to keep the masses in line. If you squint your eyes just right, in the right light, you can even see the government slide into that beam of sunlight, pretending to actually be GOD demanding "Thou Shalt Honor Me"! LOL

I strongly disagree with those assertions. IMHO, the world would have far less human suffering without theism because morals are generally derived from culture (simple philosophies long predate any religion and act as the foundation for any 'moral teachings' plagiarized by religious cults) and it is my opinion that ALL theism deteriorates cultures into narcissism and GREED. Theism encourages way more chaos and division than it could ever remedy . An ideal atheistic society would have a culture that values cohesion, philosophy, education, and preservation. The government's main responsibility should be A) Providing education and a safe environment to encourage citizens to be self-sustainable and B) Investing in infrastructure that preserves the future for our descendants.

There is no need for any sort of deity, it's more than adequate to create social cohesion for the common good of all our descendants. Religion absolutely ruins that from happening because it keeps people divided and stuck in a loop of corrupt philosophies/ego-centrism.

a reply to: neoholographicpart2

That's like asking "How can children have morality?", which has already been proven that even infants can make moral decisions based on their very limited understanding of how *they* would like to be treated.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha

It used to be that the government WAS religion. Your king, or whatever, was a "son of god" literally, and that's one very good reason why you should fear him, and never question him.

Throughout time, governments have moved toward serving the needs of the elite and having a pact with religions to keep the masses in fear and obeyance. They need religion to train them to accept their fate and have no high expectations of becoming like an elite or challenging and/or replacing the elite.

The 10 Commandments is good example of how governments rely on religion to keep the masses in line. If you squint your eyes just right, in the right light, you can even see the government slide into that beam of sunlight, pretending to actually be GOD demanding "Thou Shalt Honor Me"! LOL

You just ranting or is there a point?

a reply to: NovemberHemisphere

In the beginning, i would suggest most children follow rules to avoid punishment, or to gain favor or attention from thier parents or teachers.

And as they grow older their understanding of morality becomes more sophisticated as they start to consider the actual intentions behind their actions, thus we develop our sense of empathy i should imagine.

originally posted by: NovemberHemisphere
I strongly disagree with those assertions. IMHO, the world would have far less human suffering without theism because morals are generally derived from culture

And that culture would be better...lol Everyone's morals including yours and Sookie were based on those of religion a long time ago.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Sookiechacha

It used to be that the government WAS religion. Your king, or whatever, was a "son of god" literally, and that's one very good reason why you should fear him, and never question him.

Throughout time, governments have moved toward serving the needs of the elite and having a pact with religions to keep the masses in fear and obeyance. They need religion to train them to accept their fate and have no high expectations of becoming like an elite or challenging and/or replacing the elite.

The 10 Commandments is good example of how governments rely on religion to keep the masses in line. If you squint your eyes just right, in the right light, you can even see the government slide into that beam of sunlight, pretending to actually be GOD demanding "Thou Shalt Honor Me"! LOL

You just ranting or is there a point?

Well, I was responding to this post.

I didn’t say anything about God, I talked about religion that have a good fundamental base of morals built in for 1000s of years.

Since you missed it, my point is that religion serves to inform the masses of what is expected of them by the elite, and not to have high expectations of achieving power in this life.

originally posted by: NovemberHemisphere

That's like asking "How can children have morality?", which has already been proven that even infants can make moral decisions based on their very limited understanding of how *they* would like to be treated.

And kids are the cruelest... Your assertions are BS..

originally posted by: Xtrozero
I didn’t say anything about God...

But it is the premise of the OP.

Where did you get your morals from? Were you born with them? Why so many today that lack them?

It ain't that difficult to see, if you don't behave you will be punished. Even the idea in the bible is the same, if you don't follow the rules you will be punished.

In the end that is all that is needed for most people, atheists included, to not break the law.

a reply to: Xtrozero

It would be silly to argue that Christianity amongst other organised religious practices has not influenced our respective societies for the better or worse of the matter.

As it kind of goes without saying, and if in doubt see the likes of Easter, Christmas, Eid, and Hanukkah.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha

Since you missed it, my point is that religion serves to inform the masses of what is expected of them by the elite, and not to have high expectations of achieving power in this life.

Ok, your opinion...great.

You like to rant about elites and they are in any society religious or not, so there is no getting away from them. We all are elites at some level, so there are always people below us looking at us the same. Everyone preys on others, so what stops people from doing that?

originally posted by: daskakik

But it is the premise of the OP.

My point coming from a non-religious person seeing religions that have stood the test of time have set morals, and faith, as I have said, is a strong tool to use. Much stronger than laws and Kant.

It ain't that difficult to see, if you don't behave you will be punished. Even the idea in the bible is the same, if you don't follow the rules you will be punished.

In the end that is all that is needed for most people, atheists included, to not break the law.

I agree..who sets the rules? If we look at Stalin how were the rules changed? 60 million dead most likely a lot more...

Seems as people remove themselves from religious morals even laws are not feared...oh and then they change the laws to fit their lack of morals...

originally posted by: Xtrozero
My point coming from a non-religious person seeing religions that have stood the test of time to set morals and faith as I have said is a strong tool to use. Much stronger than laws and Kant.

Well, like I said earlier, people are prone to follow laws and still sin.

You can argue that moral codes from religions laid the foundation for laws but immediate punishment seems to be a stronger tool.

I agree..who sets the rules? If we look at Stalin how were the rules changed? 60 million dead most likely a lot more...

Seems as people remove themselves from religious morals even laws are not feared...oh and then they change the laws to fit their lack of morals...

Those in power set the rules. If they are religious it might be OK to stone people or burn them at the stake.

Religious persecution is the perfect example of people with religious morals also changing laws to fit their lack of morals: doesn't really work does it?

originally posted by: andy06shake

And as they grow older their understanding of morality becomes more sophisticated as they start to consider the actual intentions behind their actions, thus we develop our sense of empathy i should imagine.

I think most morals that are non-religious can come and go based on the situation and the advantage to the person at hand as there is nothing to stop someone whichever direction they go.

a reply to: Xtrozero

You like to rant about elites...

No I don't, and that wasn't a rant. It was a reflection on your assertion that religion is good because it bestows morality, and my personal observation on how the elites have used religions to keep the masses in fear and obeyance.

We all are elites at some level

No we're not.

so there are always people below us looking at us the same.

Yes, there are always people worse off, and better off. That's not what makes anyone elite.

Everyone preys on others, so what stops people from doing that?

Empathy and self-preservation.

originally posted by: daskakik

but immediate punishment seems to be a stronger tool.

I don't think it is as strong as faith. Also, what happens when the people with no morals create the laws? It seems you think there is still some unbreakable set of morals that everything is based on, and my point is you only see that in religion.

Those in power set the rules. If they are religious it might be OK to stone people or burn them at the stake.

Religious persecution is the perfect example of people with religious morals also changing laws to fit their lack of morals: doesn't really work does it?

When did religion kill 100 million though like what happened in China? I do see your example as a good point to what I have been saying that without a good foundation in place, anything is OK at some point and even religion is not immune to it, but religion always has that moral compass to come back to. USSR was a good example of drifting off and then never returning.