Relationships with inhabitants of Celestial Bodies a classic controversial document revisited

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

I'm thinking cosmic international law may be a theory of the existing law out there between ETs themselves not between humans and ETs only because they would have to land here and set up camp for any type of international law to be extensively thought through, enough so as to put in a book and the 50s were the start of the alien craze, was it not?

The letter's date and Einstein/Oppenheimer's working at the same place starting in 1947 would also point to it being a possibility of being genuine.

www.ias.edu...

Oddly, Oppenheimer never portrayed himself to me so far as worrying too much about humanity destroying itself.

“Oppenheimer, Einstein, von Neumann and other Institute faculty channeled much of their effort toward what AI researchers today call the 'alignment' problem: how to make sure our discoveries serve us instead of destroying us. Their approaches to this increasingly pressing problem remain instructive.”

www.ias.edu...

a reply to: quintessentone

Oddly, Oppenheimer never portrayed himself to me so far as worrying too much about humanity destroying itself.

Well he did say from Hindu Scripture…....

“Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.”

😉

👽

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1
a reply to: quintessentone

Oddly, Oppenheimer never portrayed himself to me so far as worrying too much about humanity destroying itself.

Well he did say from Hindu Scripture…....

“Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.”

😉

👽

Well maybe he was referring to the worlds the EBE's inhabit or want to colonize within our solar system.

Didn't they know how to spell "celestial"?

originally posted by: ArMaP
Didn't they know how to spell "celestial"?

Nope and it was proofread by multiple people too. (Well I'm assuming Einstein and Oppenheimer looked it over as well, could be wrong.)

The blatant complacency in assuming that we would be considered equal partners with any other intelligent species, whether on this planet or elsewhere, is a distinctly human trait. It echoes a sentiment of human superiority: "We, the Masters of the Universe, must dictate our interactions with these other beings." Bah, humbug.

If there are indeed other intelligences present, it's highly probable that they hold little to no interest in us. Consider our indifference towards ants; unless they become a bother, in which case we might eradicate a part of their troublesome population but otherwise leave the rest be.

We are, and that is the main reason we do not get full disclosure, totally NOT in control. That is a very scary message: that others, might they want to, simply can eliminate us, and there is nothing we can do about it. That others, far superiour to us, own us, own this planet - and are totally not interested in us, unless they can use us for their purposes.

So, to me, it is irrelevant if this document is fake or not. It is irrelevant, both ways.

a reply to: quintessentone

If not taken as a hoax……below is the connection I think I’ve made that may give the EO document a small bit of validly. Mind you, I have not searched the web or even ATS to see if someone prior to me has come across what I have below..

Follow the Red……it should be self explanatory.




I’m convinced George C. Marshall who was the Secretary of State during 1947 …is the Marshall mentioned in the added typed note on the last page.

Gordon could not be Gordon Cooper…..Gordon Cooper was born 1927. He would have been 20 years old in 1947 and not an influential person in the halls of government or space to be as an advisor concerning extraterrestrials with the likes of George C. Marshall, Oppenheimer and Eisenstein.

As for the “Myself”………that will have to get the Ol polish salute….and no idea who that can be. The initials look like a “VB”….but who knows.

I could believe that Oppenheimer did in fact talked with Marshall at the Harvard ceremony in June of 1947.

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Oooops Dup post
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a reply to: Ophiuchus1

the name gordan was probably Abraham Lincoln Gordon, seeing how the note uses last names of trumans admin officials.

Gordon then worked for the US State Department as Director of the Marshall Plan Mission and Minister for Economic Affairs and at the United States embassy in London (1952–55).[6] "To let Western Europe collapse for want of some dollars," Gordon has stated in regard to his role in the Marshall Plan, "would have been a tragedy. It would have been repeating the terrible mistake after World War I."[8]

Lincoln Gordon

and here is a list of jobs he had during his time in the U.S. Government

Program vice chairman, Requirements Committee, War Production Board, 1945; director, Bureau of Reconversion Priorities, Civilian Production Administration, 1945-46; consultant to the U.S. Representative on the U.N. Atomic Energy Commission, 1946; consultant, Army and Navy Munitions Board, 1947; consultant in the U.S. Department of State working on the Marshall plan, 1947, and with the European Cooperation Administration, 1948; director of the Program Division, Office of E.C.A. special representative in Europe, 1949-50; economic adviser to Averell Harriman, special assistant to the President, 1950 51; assistant director for Mutual Security Agency, 1951-52; and chief of M.S.A. mission to the United Kingdom and minister for economic affairs in United States Embassy, London, 1952-55. Later U.S. Ambassador to Brazil, 1961-66, and assistant secretary of state for inter-American affairs, 1966-67. Washington, D.C. July 17, 1975 and July 22, 1975 by Richard D. McKinzie

Oral History Interview with Lincoln Gordon

a reply to: BernnieJGato

Thanks!

Certainly he has the upper echelon credentials for being a person in the know.

Perhaps that’s him 😉

Now for “Myself”….. the initialer…



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Btw…….Einstein with Secretary of State (former General) George C. Marshall



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a reply to: BernnieJGato

I believe I have found the identity of “Myself” the EO document statement note on the last page. The initials which I thought could be VB….is VB imo….and presumably that of Vincent Barnett ….close friend to Lincoln Gordon.

The below is a bit winded but should be read for the context for which it was written about Atomic energy…Atomic weapons. Oppenheimer is also mentioned.

The source is titled Lincoln Gordon Oral History Interview from the Harry S. Truman Library.

I will bold all three names Gordon, Barnett, and Oppenheimer and relevant text in the pertinent q&a portions of the interview.

[23] MCKINZIE: What were your academic plans? You said you had planned to coauthor a book on industrial development that year?

GORDON: That's right, I was to do two things: one was to develop a new course in government and business relations; the other was to do a book about the industrial mobilization experience during the war. I was to do it jointly with Vincent Barnett, who was then a professor of Government at Williams College, and who had worked directly with me in the War Production Board for a couple of years. We were close friends and colleagues. We had laid out the outline of that book together. Much to my embarrassment he later completed his half of it and I never completed mine. The book never got finished or published. Anyway, I talked to Dean David and Stan Teele, the Associate Dean, and they felt that the

[24] atomic energy problem was colossally important. Deans David and Teele were very sympathetic to my working on it. They said, in effect: "Look, first things first. The industrial mobilization project doesn't have a real time target on it, so, sure, you ought to do this." So, I went to New York, arriving in early July of '46, and joined the U.S. delegation. Within a day or two of my arrival Gromyko, who was then the Soviet Ambassador to the U.N. and their member of the U.N. Atomic Energy Commission, gave his speech of reply. This was about three weeks after Baruch had given his opening speech. Gromyko's speech was very long. The substance was summed up in the last sentence, which I can still quote almost word for word in the English translation: "And for all these reasons," Gromyko said, "we cannot accept the American plan for international atomic energy control in its present

[25] form, either as a whole or in any of its parts." This meeting was in the Henry Hudson Hotel. We went back to the Empire State Building where our offices were, and had a confabulation. Swope was all prepared to wind it up, and say, "All right, we've put our proposal; they've rejected it. To hell with it now; let's all quit." And I said, "But he said, 'In its present form,' and that suggests that there may be some openings and we ought not to leave any stone unturned." And my argument was persuasive. We talked about tactics and decided that the next thing probably was to try to get the scientists together to see if they could agree on a common diagnosis on the nature of the atomic energy control problem. That became the main exercise for that summer. Although I wasn't a scientist, I was temperamentally very close, partly because of this early scientific interest of mine, to

[26] our own scientific delegation. We had some really remarkable people. We had full-time, at that time, Robert Bacher, who is now president of Cal Tech, and who left us later in the summer because he was the first scientific member of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission. Congress was just finishing up passing the McMahon Act at that time. It was slow in forming because Dave Lilienthal was named by President Truman as the chairman and the Senate took its time about confirming Dave in that job. So, Bacher was with us; he was then a relatively young man. From the older generation we had Richard Tolman, America's leading cosmologist, one of the important participants in the Los Alamos part of the atomic bomb project. He was from California also, and a splendid man. On about a two-thirds time basis, although not

[27] full-time, we had Robert Oppenheimer. And then there was a younger scientist, Paul Fine. This was a very distinguished group of men. I spent a lot of spare time in discussions with them and they invited me to the scientific committee meetings as a kind of associate member of the delegation, perhaps feeling that I could help on the political or administrative side where their background might be weaker. I also became the American member of the policy subcommittee which was drafting what became the first report of the U.N. Atomic Energy Commission to the General Assembly. Also, before I arrived Eberstadt had drafted, and the U.S. delegation had presented, three technical memoranda which were backup documents for the Baruch speech. There were some gaps still to be filled in. For example, there was the concept of a phased transition. Assuming that

[28] you could get agreement to internationalize control, of atomic energy and set up an international atomic authority which would have monopoly control on a world-wide basis of all fissionable material, and if all atomic weapons then existing -- and, of course, we thought that meant only ours -- were to be dismantled and the fissionable material in them turned over to this world-wide authority, when was that to be done and how was it to be done? How could you work out the transition from an American monopoly of the hardware, and what we thought was a joint British-Canadian-American monopoly of the knowledge, to its internationalization? At the same time, the cold war was definitely setting in. We were well aware of that. I was aware of it personally from the day I arrived in New York. Even in '45 in the War Production Board, through our involvement in the lend-lease program, we had begun to have some trouble with

[29] the Russians, noting their resistance to any conditions whatever on the postwar use of lend-lease materials. Later, I got to know Harriman very well and heard at firsthand how he saw it from his vantage point in Moscow.

So….imo….we have the following individuals on the statement note, on the last page of the EO document…

“Myself” as the initialer VB = Vincent Barnett
Marshall = George C. Marshall
Gordon = Lincoln Gordon

All of whom associated with or know of Oppenheimer.

Well I’m done beating this horse for now……

I lean towards a legit Einstein/Oppenheimer document which includes extraterrestrials. But for “obvious reasons” was not presented to President Truman.

Btw….it would be nice to find material with the signature or initials of Vincent Barnett to do a comparison against the initials of the EO document’s last page. Perhaps at records from the college

Vincent Barnett, who was then a professor of Government at Williams College.

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UPDATE: Found this…….15 years later.



Could the difference between initials in 1947 and the signature letters, change over time by 1962?



I know from my present signature and initials look like chicken scratch compared to the wonderful cursive signature and initials I had as a younger man.

Is there a handwriting professional here on ATS????

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a reply to: Ophiuchus1

It turns out he did have an middle initial…..the letter M and he was a Jr….

Vincent M. Barnett Jr

The VB is looking like a hurriedly stylized written VMB….perhaps maybe?

Something elsewhere with the initials would be best for comparison.

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a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Looks like a case of tail-chasing to me. Seems the document may actually have originated on ATS some ten years ago.

The Soul:Ask article, titled Document from Einstein and Oppenheimer on Aliens and UFOs, published Aug. 17, 2013, does not list an author, however, it does credit another website called abovetopsecret.com...

The Soul:Ask article was copied word-for-word from a forum post on Above Top Secret of the same title published two days earlier on Aug. 15, 2013, by the user skyblueworld... Source

To be frank, I don't see any reason why Einstein and Oppenheimer couldn't have drafted a memo like that. It doesn't suggest that extraterrestrials actually exist; it just speculates about what the diplomatic and legal implications might be if they did exist and the US Government had to deal with them. And we know the gentlemen at Los Alamos were fond of speculating about such matters -- Fermi's 'where is everybody?' and so on. I shouldn't be too quick to dismiss it as a fake -- or to read very much into it if it were genuine, either.

a reply to: Astyanax

And here's the thread.

Document from Einstein and Oppenheimer on Aliens and UFOs

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

It doesn't look like they were made by the same person, although some people do write in slightly different ways when just using their initials.
But they usually use the same kind of hand gestures, and I don't see that, like on the "V", that starts and ends in a different way.

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

I'm thinking VB might be Arthur Vandenberg, chairman of the U.S. Senate Cttee. on Foreign Relations. It seems reasonable to me considering the committee he chaired. (ETA: names beginning with 'von' or 'van' are usually in lowercase).

The name Gordon (first or last - most likely last) isn't popping up anywhere, so far.

en.wikipedia.org...

ETA

What's interesting is looking at the timeline in the wikipedia link below and how the 1947 flying disc craze started. Maybe I can find a Gordon before or after the Roswell crash.

en.wikipedia.org...

------

So what about this Gordon Gray? I mean he was the Special Assistant to the President after all.

www.thecrimson.com...

originally posted by: Ophiuchus1
Btw… I can’t find the bookmark of the source where I downloaded it in pdf form. At some point I might find it.
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This is one possibility.

And I found an old ATS thread about it, here.

Edited to add that on that site they talk about the initials at the end being from Vannevar Bush.

The Wikipedia page about Vannevar Bush has an image with his signature.

a reply to: ArMaP

Well it looks like I got the Gordon Gray correct.

Vannevar Bush’s initials after the note that essentially says “I don’t think that we should let Einstein talk to the President and Gordon Gray agrees.”

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

Like you I had consigned this to the hoax bin and you're right, glad I read this again. It's possible they are talking about the phonomena that was brought before Congress.

They seem to know these entities are present just not where they come from, ties in with David Grusch's insistence in not saying ET intelligence and the theory they have been here the whole time.

It's interesting how much that's been consigned to the hoax bin that now seems to fit the bigger picture. MH370 anyone? (Honestly I had put that to bed myself, back on the fence)

a reply to: quintessentone

More correctly, it looks like you thought the same as the people that wrote that page, as the document doesn't say "Gray".