Colossians;- Image of the invisible God

Colossians ch1 vv15-20

This passage is a classic set-piece statement on the divinity of Christ. When I was studying for the B.D., this was one of the set texts for an examination paper on that theme. The recommended reading included an entire thesis devoted to these verses alone.

Paul’s intention is to state the case clearly and decisively. For exactly that reason, it becomes a target for quibbling, as critics try to replace “what the writer meant by these sentences” with “what the individual words might be made to mean if we treat them with enough pedantry”. I no longer have the notes I made at the time, so I will just go through the passage and pick out the most important features.

V15. He is “the image of the invisible God”. The thought in Paul’s mind is that he is God made visible, the EIKON .Hebrews ch1 v3, making the same point, uses a word which commentators relate to the impression made by the mould used for stamping out coins. The point is that the copy echoes the original. Quibblers will try to turn it into “only a copy, not the real thing”, but that is amply refuted by v19.

“First-born of all creation”. This is explained by v17, “He is before all things”. That is, he precedes creation. He was “begotten of his Father” before created things came into existence. Therefore it is NOT legitimate to interpret the phrase as “The earliest born member of the category of created things”.

V16. “In him all things were created… all things were created through him and through him… in him all things hold together”. This provides a logical proof that the Son does not belong to the category “created things”. In fact the proof is identical with the more concise statement in John; “All things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made” (John ch1 v3). Think about it. If the Son is the channel through whom “ALL created things” were made, then the channel himself cannot possibly be one of the “all created things”. Because then he would have to come into existence before he came into existence so that he could be brought into existence through himself. Which would be absurd. These two statements clearly place the Son on the “Creator” side of the boundary between Creator and created things.

V18 “He is the head of the church”. We have been told that all things hold together in him, and he is holding the church together in a more specific way. Because “head” has become the standard label for the leader of an organisation, modern people are likely to lose sight of the “head and body” image. Later, in ch2 v19, he tries to combine the two concepts of “origin” and “leader”, by producing the slightly bizarre picture of a body growing outwards from the its head. That metaphor is enough to convince me that this letter really does come from Paul (which some people deny).

“First-born from the dead”. He is “the beginning” in one more sense, as being the first in his community to experience resurrection, besides being the source of the resurrection of the others. “That in everything he might be pre-eminent.”

V19 “For in him all the fullness of God [PLEROMA] was pleased to dwell.” Here is a clear and unmistakable statement that the Son is the incarnate version of God. It is hard to see how the point could be expressed more strongly. What is there beyond “fullness”? If you don’t think it has that meaning, what more could he possibly say that does have that meaning?

V20 We need to watch the pronouns carefully. “The fullness of God” is the subject of the sentence. The “fullness” was working through the Son in order to reconcile “all things” in heaven and earth to the Fullness., making peace between God and man by the blood of the Cross of Jesus.

The universalist will want to claim that “all things” must include the wicked. This does not follow at all, because we learn from the last chapters of Revelation that the wicked will finally be absent from “heaven and earth”. The reconciliation of “all things” is achieved by excluding them and reconciling the rest.

P.S. The joke about "he should have quit while he was a head" seems to be well-known on the internet, but I don't know whether it was actually inspired by Paul's "body growing out of the head" concept, or whether it was just independent word-play. Nor do I know whether it was created by or just borrowed by the Vicar of Dibley scriptwriters.

a reply to: DISRAELI2

I think the difficulty arises when a religion like Christianity which has gone astray from the original Abrahamic religion, which was in essence a creation of Akhenaten 1372BC tries to reconcile the fact that they not only went so far to declare themselves God through J.C. a man on the same level as something much bigger and very alien.

All the Creation myths are really just meaningful in the context of what peeps knew at the time about how things work.
I mean sure you can get here and there 'inspired bits' out of it, but that is mostly due to the same mechanism through which Tarot fe also works to inspire some: the meaning is always what you want to read into it.

Is God invisible? How would that be possible if it is the sum and root of our universe it is everything but invisible.

God is a spirit. We wanted a God with hands and a face. He made provision and gave us Himself, in flesh form. Only certain things were partitioned. Such as the date of his return. we are in a war.

As for Akhenaten: He was a Satanic turd, and is awaiting his judgement, and transfer to Hell and then into the Lake of fire. Don't be an Akhenaten.. I cant stand to look at him. He looks like someone alive today that totally disgusts me. Sorry for messing up your thread Disraeli

a reply to: visitedbythem

lovely
being challenged and react with 'I hate' is obviously sign of being a just awesome, enlightened spirit.
lol

Get over it he invented monotheism, if you like him or not is really so tally irrelevant and only your personal problem, because it proves your religion is not special whatsoever. Just the logical consequence of an on-going process.

Firstborn means the first born. To be born means you have a beginning. What this means is that Jesus was the first creation by God. And the only direct creation by him, because all other things were created through him and for him. That is also why Jesus is called the "only-begotten." (John 3:16) To be begotten means you were created. The "only-begotten" means he was the only direct creation by his Father, Jehovah God.

You're using mental gymnastics, which make no sense, to contradict scripture, to try and uphold false doctrines, much like that FlyingFans does. I don't say this to be mean. Nor to argue.

It's the same with Stephen Hawking when he states something like: ""Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing." Once smart, learned people try to justify preconceived prejudices about God and the nature of the universe they end up sounding like babbling fools.

FlyingFans went on for days about how death is like sleep, but sleep is not being asleep. I forget all the mental gymnastics she was going through to get from being dead is asleep but you're awake and alive.

To quote you:

"First-born of all creation”. This is explained by v17, “He is before all things”. That is, he precedes creation. He was “begotten of his Father” before created things came into existence. Therefore it is NOT legitimate to interpret the phrase as “The earliest born member of the category of created things”.

You even mentioned here that Jesus was "born" and he was "begotten." He is the "firstborn of all creation." Jehovah God did not have a beginning. Jesus is the beginning of Jehovah's creation. Before Jesus existed Jehovah was still the King of Eternity. And was complete and lacked nothing and needed nothing. And after creating Jesus he still needed nothing. And it appears from the scripture that he created all other things both in heaven and on earth both invisible and visible through and for Jesus Christ, not for himself: "All other things have been created through him and for him."-Colossians 1:16.

You see smart and learned people always have to twist things and ignore truths to get to their falsehoods in the end. No matter who they are. People who may not be as intelligent or as learned may be beguiled by such tomfoolery. But even an ordinary uneducated person can figure out that because a law such as gravity exists that means the universe can and will create itself from nothing is utter nonsense. Just like saying that the Bible says that the dead are asleep, but that means they are alive and awake. Again you don't need to be a genius to figure out that's nonsense.

Just like stating that Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation" and was "begotten" by God doesn't mean he was created or the first of God's creations.

a reply to: randomuser2034

what about Adam and Eve, the universe itself before that? Is that not first borns?

You're using mental gymnastics, which make no sense

a cry for help from your subconscious. The mirror says you are taking it too far to justify the contradictions and how you're waiting for thousands of years still no answer... it's rough I get it

There seems to be some confusion here.

In the beginning (Berisheet?) was the Word. And the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh (as we requested) and dwelt among us.

Thats not the first time he appeared in flesh form either. Who do you think was wrestling Jacob. That was not AN angel. AN angel of the Lord and THE angel of the Lord have different meanings.

Remember when during the transfiguration Moses came down and said to Yeshua " Who the heck are you? Ive never seen you before". Me neither.... He knew exactly who He was and could have fallen at his feet in worship and all would be fine. You may worship Christ, because He is your Creator. All things were created by the Word. Jesus is the Word.

originally posted by: ButterfliesAndPonies
a reply to: randomuser2034

what about Adam and Eve, the universe itself before that? Is that not first borns?

You're using mental gymnastics, which make no sense

a cry for help from your subconscious. The mirror says you are taking it too far to justify the contradictions and how you're waiting for thousands of years still no answer... it's rough I get it

What about Adam and Eve? Adam was a son of God as he did not have a human father. Eve was taken from the rib of Adam. Who do you think Jehovah God used to create Adam and Eve?

Proverbs refers to the relationship between Jesus Christ and Jehovah God as Wisdom personified this way:

Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.
23 From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth.
24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth,
When there were no springs overflowing with water.
25 Before the mountains were set in place,
Before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields
Or the first clods of earth’s soil.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there;
When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,
28 When he established the clouds above,
When he founded the fountains of the deep,
29 When he set a decree for the sea
That its waters should not pass beyond his order,
When he established the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time;
31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth,
And I was especially fond of the sons of men.


Jesus was produced, or created, by God as his earliest of achievements of long ago. And Jesus was there when God created the heavens and the earth. He was beside Jehovah God as a "master worker." He was used in creating all other things. And Jehovah God was especially fond of his only-begotten son Jesus Christ, day by day. And Jesus rejoiced before his Father all the time. And he rejoiced in the creation and the inhabiting of the earth with life. And what Jesus was especially fond of, was the sons of man. Jehovah has a great fondness for Jesus that he does not have for any one else. And Jesus has a special fondness for humankind.

a reply to: visitedbythem

Jesus was an imposter.
And actually the whole thing was a scam from the start. Politics.
Which makes it fitting that you peeps now chose The Donald as his successor.
lol
Just that you won't get 200 years of leeway this timme because it is absolutely possible to know better this time around.

But I am not in the judging business. What I'd like to keep repeating is just this:
question everything and most of all what you want to believe

Why is it so important to you that man is all that is out there? Is it not much more meaningful and beautiful if there is something truly ALIEN!™ to us that has the judging power?

a reply to: ButterfliesAndPonies

2 Peter 3:3

3Most importantly, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4“Where is the promise of His coming?” they will ask. “Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation.”…

Hey there! Good job at fulfilling prophecy!

a reply to: visitedbythem

Dude: I am the prophecy

a reply to: randomuser2034

Define Jesus?
If you use it as liberal as you do it loses all meaning to me?

originally posted by: visitedbythem
There seems to be some confusion here.

In the beginning (Berisheet?) was the Word. And the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh (as we requested) and dwelt among us.

Thats not the first time he appeared in flesh form either. Who do you think was wrestling Jacob. That was not AN angel. AN angel of the Lord and THE angel of the Lord have different meanings.

Remember when during the transfiguration Moses came down and said to Yeshua " Who the heck are you? Ive never seen you before". Me neither.... He knew exactly who He was and could have fallen at his feet in worship and all would be fine. You may worship Christ, because He is your Creator. All things were created by the Word. Jesus is the Word.

All things were created "through" not "by." And when Moses and the elders had a vision of Jehovah God on the Holy Mountain, it was a vision. They were not looking at God himself. A little later on Jehovah himself even told Moses that no one can look on his face and live. Jehovah is the Creator. All things were created by Jehovah God. Jesus is the one through whom God created all things as the master worker. Jesus is the only-begotten firstborn of all creation. The very first of God's creation, his "only-begotten." By means of Jesus Christ and for Jesus Christ all other things were created.

originally posted by: ButterfliesAndPonies
a reply to: randomuser2034

Define Jesus?
If you use it as liberal as you do it loses all meaning to me?

Jesus is the "only-begotten" son of God. The first-born of all creation.

a reply to: ButterfliesAndPonies

I think we all know who the imposter is here. He is filled with his father the devil

a reply to: randomuser2034

sooooo not the dude who lived 2000-ish years ago?

a reply to: DISRAELI2

I think it may be inspired by Pinocchio.
I first heard it in 1964. The head was granted the wish "to be a real boy" by a fairy godmother. No pub or beer.

a reply to: visitedbythem

who is the devil? Prometheus who gave humanity the fire ie the original light-bearer of whom J.C. was also one?

Ot the torturer and surpresser of human progress who killed J.C. and wants humans to live in the dirt and do nothing but worship Him?

Don't get me wrong I can handle that either way. But I am into that sort of deviant joy.

originally posted by: ButterfliesAndPonies
a reply to: randomuser2034

sooooo not the dude who lived 2000-ish years ago?

The "firstborn" son of God had a prehuman existence. Even Jesus himself said:

"Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been."-John 8:58.

And he said he descended from heaven:

"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."-John 3:13.

But Jesus never claimed to be God. He said that God is greater than him:

"The Father is greater than I am."-John 14:28.

And he said that he worshipped the same God that his followers worshipped:

"But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”-John 20:17.

In fact Jesus prayed to God all the time. It is recorded in the gospels that he prayed to God all the time. Prayer is an act of worship to God.