Donald Trump States he never swore Oath to the Constitution - MSM

a reply to: Sookiechacha

The presidency isn't a title, it's an federal office that is filled once every 4 years, after a national election.

No?

Article II Section I

The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his office during the term of four years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same term, be elected, as follows:

Looks like a title to me....

So much that it is mentioned a total of 43 times in The Constitution...

That's exactly how it works.

You forgot your source Sookie.....

a reply to: JinMI

Sounds like an office to me.

Article II, Section 1, Clause 5:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

Article II, Section 1, Clause 8
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

That's not how the law works, sorry.

Source?

a reply to: Sookiechacha

"execute"

Execute the office of the presidency. I know, reading is difficult.

Source?

Sure, I'll post it again as the reading part is proving malignant...

The rule of lenity is a principle used in criminal law, also called rule of strict construction, stating that when a law is unclear or ambiguous, the court should apply it in the way that is most favorable to the defendant, or to construe the statute against the state. The rule of lenity stems from two constitutional objectives: first, the separation of powers, as it limits the scope of statutory language in penal statutes and does not allow the courts to establish the contours of a crime and its punishment. Second, the rule of lenity stems from the wish to “protect the legislature’s constitutional lawmaking prerogative, and to limit the courts’ encroachment on a legislative function”.

The rule of lenity

a reply to: JinMI

Sure, I'll post it again as the reading part is proving malignant...

The rule of lenity is a principle used in criminal law,

Okay, first of all, that's a "rule" not a LAW.

Secondly, your Rule of Lenity is used in criminal law. This is a constitutional law issue, not a criminal law issue.

Third, whether or not the Office of Presidency is an office eligible for disqualification by the 14th Amendment is not a matter in which lenity is required.  It either is or it isn't an eligible office.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

Okay, first of all, that's a "rule" not a LAW.

Right, a rule that shapes how laws are applied.

Secondly, your Rule of Leniency is used in criminal law. This is a constitutional law issue, not a criminal law issue.

It's a law issue. Can you explain to me then how the rule of lenity wouldn't apply to this nebulous "constitutional law" you're trying to build?

Third, whether or not the Office of Presidency is an office eligible for disqualification by the 14th Amendment is not a matter in which leniency is required. It either is or it isn't an eligible office.

Then based on 5 court rulings...it isn't.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: chr0naut

" Barrack Obama was born in the Kapiolani Medical Center for Women and Children in Honolulu and is a natural born citizen of the United States. "

False . Obama was Born in Kenya , his Mother then took a Flight to Hawaii and went into a Hospital there and Claimed he was Born in Hawaii . Nice Try with that LIE ............

Obama's mother Ann Dunham, met Obama's biological father Barack Obama Sr, in Hawaii at university there. They married on Maui, on February 2, 1961 and Obama was born on August 4 the same year. They did not travel to Kenya during that time period. After the birth of Obama, the family moved to Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Anne Durham moved back to Hawaii in 1963 and divorced Barack Obama Sr. in 1964.

Additionally, the flight from Kenya to Hawaii would take more than 21 hours, so for her to have given birth in Kenya, to have had the mandatory 24+ hours stay in hospital there, to organize plane tickets, and then fly to Hawaii with a newborn, to gain entry to the maternity hospital in Hawaii, and register the birth there, is extremely far-fetched and would require a whole chain of bureaucratic malfeasance, organized by someone who was only a student, across multiple countries.

And the authentic birth certificate said he was born in Hawaii.

A Work of Fiction , and a Bad one at that .

a reply to: Mahogani

" The 14th, sec3 covers all positions, military and civilian. "

It does Not Cover the Commander in Chief if Not Specified .

a reply to: JinMI

Right, a rule that shapes how laws are applied.

Criminal law.

Can you explain to me then how the rule of lenity wouldn't apply to this nebulous "constitutional law" you're trying to build?

This issue has no defendant. Either the presidency qualifies as an office under the 14th Amendment, or it doesn't. It's unimaginable to me to think that an insurrectionist wouldn't be able to run for city mayor, council person or a senator, but President of United States? Sure, why not?

Then based on 5 court rulings...it isn't.

What 5 court rulings? I'm not aware of a single ruling that addresses whether or not the office of the presidency is eligible for disqualification under the 14th Amendment.

2 warnings on the same post that was removed for "political trolling and baiting" for having the audacity to relay an international law with zero political preference or bias stated? That's incredibly insulting and very telling. Wow.

Anyway, it seems like there's a bit of a gray area.

The Presidency can be considered an "Office" as the wordage is somewhat open for that interpretation; the President, however, is not an officer, as defined by SCOTUS - with one of the main defining features of an Officer being appointed; the President is elected, not appointed.

The 14th goes on to list other individuals that aren't necessarily appointed and are elected, but the President isn't mentioned within those explicit references either.

Ergo, visa vi, concordantly, not applicable.

a reply to: dothedew

The presidency, AKA The Commander and Chief, is a civilian position. It is not a military position.

the President, however, is not an officer, as defined by SCOTUS

...In what SCOTUS ruling?

Officers are not elected. They are appointed. Who appoints them? The POTUS.

For some reason all of the rules have changed with Mr Trump. The POTUS is the authority in the US.

The U.S. Supreme Court wrote in Nixon v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 731 (1982): “Article II, § 1, of the Constitution provides that "[t]he executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States. . . ." This grant of authority establishes the President as the chief constitutional officer of the Executive Branch, entrusted with supervisory and policy responsibilities of utmost discretion and sensitivity. (457 U.S. 749-750).”

He is in charge. This would go to the documents case also.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

...In what SCOTUS ruling?

Oh God..... I have to find it again. I stumbled across it yesterday when I was digging around for analysis regarding all of this. Give me a few minutes here and I should be able to link it. I want to say it was a ruling in either 2007 or 2010.

Free Enter. Fund v. Pub. Co. Accounting Oversight Bd. (2010)

This is from the Opinion regarding the scope of the language relating to Officers of the United States.

Chief Justice Roberts observed that "[t]he people do not vote for the 'Officers of the United States.'" Rather, "officers of the United States" are appointed exclusively pursuant to Article II, Section 2 procedures. It follows that the President, who is an elected official, is not an "officer of the United States."

Opinion (and Order) of the Court, 561 U.S. 477 (2010)

The presidency, AKA The Commander and Chief, is a civilian position. It is not a military position.

That's what I thought initially as well, but as usual, there's case law and precedent somewhere that can add some clarity to titles, language, stipulations, exceptions, etc. Believe me, I went down quite the wormhole to find things.

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: chr0naut

" Barrack Obama was born in the Kapiolani Medical Center for Women and Children in Honolulu and is a natural born citizen of the United States. "

False . Obama was Born in Kenya , his Mother then took a Flight to Hawaii and went into a Hospital there and Claimed he was Born in Hawaii . Nice Try with that LIE ............

Obama's mother Ann Dunham, met Obama's biological father Barack Obama Sr, in Hawaii at university there. They married on Maui, on February 2, 1961 and Obama was born on August 4 the same year. They did not travel to Kenya during that time period. After the birth of Obama, the family moved to Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Anne Durham moved back to Hawaii in 1963 and divorced Barack Obama Sr. in 1964.

Additionally, the flight from Kenya to Hawaii would take more than 21 hours, so for her to have given birth in Kenya, to have had the mandatory 24+ hours stay in hospital there, to organize plane tickets, and then fly to Hawaii with a newborn, to gain entry to the maternity hospital in Hawaii, and register the birth there, is extremely far-fetched and would require a whole chain of bureaucratic malfeasance, organized by someone who was only a student, across multiple countries.

And the authentic birth certificate said he was born in Hawaii.

A Work of Fiction , and a Bad one at that .

Does it matter now that Obama has been President - for two terms - and is no longer President, and will never be President again, and he didn't end the world, or even just the USA?

originally posted by: dothedew
a reply to: Sookiechacha

...In what SCOTUS ruling?

Oh God..... I have to find it again. I stumbled across it yesterday when I was digging around for analysis regarding all of this. Give me a few minutes here and I should be able to link it. I want to say it was a ruling in either 2007 or 2010.

Free Enter. Fund v. Pub. Co. Accounting Oversight Bd. (2010)

This is from the Opinion regarding the scope of the language relating to Officers of the United States.

Chief Justice Roberts observed that "[t]he people do not vote for the 'Officers of the United States.'" Rather, "officers of the United States" are appointed exclusively pursuant to Article II, Section 2 procedures. It follows that the President, who is an elected official, is not an "officer of the United States."

Opinion (and Order) of the Court, 561 U.S. 477 (2010)

The presidency, AKA The Commander and Chief, is a civilian position. It is not a military position.

That's what I thought initially as well, but as usual, there's case law and precedent somewhere that can add some clarity to titles, language, stipulations, exceptions, etc. Believe me, I went down quite the wormhole to find things.

In Trump's case, he definitely wasn't acting as an officer of the United States. He was an officer of Donald J Trump, and his corporation/s, and no-one else.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: dothedew
a reply to: Sookiechacha

In Trump's case, he definitely wasn't acting as an officer of the United States. He was an officer of Donald J Trump, and his corporation/s, and no-one else.

I'd go so far as that he was acting as an Agent of the United States, treating it a business just like any other (and as it's been established as such over the last century and a half through a multitude of court rulings and government filings) and did a good job of it.

He didn't act as an officer of feelings, PC culture, self-defeating rules set forth as to not offend people, or pressure from the loud back seats. Not an Officer of the US though.

a reply to: dothedew

Okay! I think I'm following the line of thinking you're trying to express here.

Here's a super informative article.
Is the President an "officer of the United States" for purposes of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment?

This question can only be decided by SCOTUS. And when they do, either way, they'll be legislating constitutional law from the bench.

originally posted by: dothedew

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: dothedew
a reply to: Sookiechacha

In Trump's case, he definitely wasn't acting as an officer of the United States. He was an officer of Donald J Trump, and his corporation/s, and no-one else.

I'd go so far as that he was acting as an Agent of the United States, treating it a business just like any other (and as it's been established as such over the last century and a half through a multitude of court rulings and government filings) and did a good job of it.

He didn't act as an officer of feelings, PC culture, self-defeating rules set forth as to not offend people, or pressure from the loud back seats. Not an Officer of the US though.

Trump initiated actions against people whom he deemed as non US citizens, who were in fact US citizens by law and he tried to influence public opinion so others would believe him.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: dothedew

The presidency, AKA The Commander and Chief, is a civilian position. It is not a military position.

the President, however, is not an officer, as defined by SCOTUS

...In what SCOTUS ruling?

Wrong . Can a Civilian Order a nuclear Strike ? A Foolish statement there Sookwhatchamacallit .

a reply to: chr0naut

...: and is no longer President, "


You Sure of that ? Who do you think Joe Blows Handler is Dummkopf ?

a reply to: Zanti Misfit


The Office of the President is a Civil Office. The President is a civilian. The US Military is accountable to civilian authority by design.

This is Civics 101.