Have Traditional Left & Right Political Poles Flipped?

Hi Everyone,

I was recently on a family holiday with all my brothers, parents, partners & kids etc along the Kent coast.

We generally indulged in a few drinks in the evening, which most nights lead to a well natured discussion on views & current/recent affairs.

Me and my brothers fall into the 30 - 40 year old age bracket, my dad is close to 60.

My views are fairly typical amongst many of the followers & posters on here (distrusting of governments, not convinced climate change is man made, Agenda 2030, anti Ukraine war yada yada) and differ from most of my families on most things, with the odd exception.

Now, my brothers were quite shocked by my views on things (not in a horrible way, more that I've always been a softy!) and said that I'm on the whole very hard right.

My dad on the other hand thinks I'm very hard left.

I found such a difference in viewpoint of left/right between generations to be fascinating. This made me question whether I'm left or right in my views and frankly I have no idea!

But the question is, do you think the views of what makes somebody left or right wing has completely flipped around?

I'm hoping to keep to topic on this, rather than discussing particular events/viewpoints etc but of course appreciate this may help in sharing opinions.

Very interested to hear what you think!

a reply to: TurkeyGoose

I've also heard from some old timers that the philosophies of both parties has flipped or reversed over time.

Here is a comparison of philosophies now:

www.diffen.com...

Here is a comparison of philosophies back then:

In 1960, the Civil Rights issue was rolling to the forefront – and it was the large bloc of Southern voters; Democrats, who were violently opposed to Integration and voters rights. In many ways, the Republican Party of 1960 was much more liberal and left-leaning than many of the Democrats at the time.

We sometimes forget the roles of the two parties had almost become reversed by the time the 70s came about. Even as early as 1962, there was a movement afoot to take the Republican Party to a hard right, just as the Democratic party of Kennedy and Johnson were taking the Democratic party to the left of center and distancing themselves from the Dixiecrats of the South, who would eventually drop their party affiliation and head over to the GOP.

pastdaily.com...

a reply to: TurkeyGoose

Yes, in many ways they have (on specific topics).

However, I think the biggest flip is more general.

Conventional wisdom is that the liberal mind is more open to new ideas and conservative minds are more closed off. These days the opposite seems to be.

a reply to: eluryh22

Conventional wisdom is that the liberal mind is more open to new ideas and conservative minds are more closed off. These days the opposite seems to be.

It's more like conservatives think more about consequences IMHO and in my observations. That's not being closed off, that's being cautious about changing things just to change something. Blind activism. World is full of such examples.

a reply to: TurkeyGoose
Is it perhaps a reflection of how much the younger generation has been Americaniised? In Europe, anyone who was "against the goverment" has historically been left-wing. That's what being left-wing meant. Yet in America being "agin the government" has been a feature of conservatism, something I can only explain as a product of the federal nature of the United States and local patriotism focussed on the individual states. Anyone who values "law and order" feels they get it from local government, and national government only interferes with their freedoms. It's an attitude which ignores the phenomenon of American local tyrannies which can't be restrained from the over-distant centre.

If the internet has encouraged the younger generation to absorb American attitudes and assumptions, that might explain why they think of scepticism of government as a right-wing thing, while your older father recognises it as a tradtional left-wing approach.

The Ukraine waar is a good test. Traditionally, it was the right wing who feared Russia, and only the left thought that resisting Russia was unnecessary. Even the Russians justify themeslves by the charge that Ukraine is fascist, i.e. too right wing. So I too would have thought that being sceptical about the war was a left-wing approach.

originally posted by: TDDAgain
a reply to: eluryh22

Conventional wisdom is that the liberal mind is more open to new ideas and conservative minds are more closed off. These days the opposite seems to be.

It's more like conservatives think more about consequences IMHO and in my observations. That's not being closed off, that's being cautious about changing things just to change something. Blind activism. World is full of such examples.

You are correct in my opinion.

What I meant is that it seems conservatives (currently) are open to debates or discussions while liberals have more of a “my way or the highway” mentality.

One can’t even QUESTION vaccine efficacy.
One can’t even QUESTION if men should be in womens’ sports and spaces.

Just raising questions is enough to be banished.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: TurkeyGoose
Is it perhaps a reflection of how much the younger generation has been Americaniised? In Europe, anyone who was "against the goverment" has historically been left-wing. That's what being left-wing meant. Yet in America being "agin the government" has been a feature of conservatism, something I can only explain as a product of the federal nature of the United States and local patriotism focussed on the individual states. Anyone who values "law and order" feels they get it form local government, and national government only interferes with their freedoms. It's an attitude which ignores the phenomeonon of American local tyrannies which can't be restrained from the over-distant centre.

If the internet has encouraged the younger generation to absorb American attitudes and assumptions, that might explain why they think of scepticism of government as a right-wing thing.

I also think the younger generation are more global than previous generations therefore may have a wider understanding of people and governments outside of America, so can come at a political philosophy, let's say, a more-informed point of view and not necessarily what a two-party government has to offer.

a reply to: quintessentone

That’s BS.

Only about 4 democrats in office switched parties between the 60s and the 90s.

The republicans didn't have a majority in any southern States until the mid 90s.

Democrats have always been racist POS.

originally posted by: watchitburn
a reply to: quintessentone

That’s BS.

Only about 4 democrats in office switched parties between the 60s and the 90s.

The republicans didn't have a majority in any southern States until the mid 90s.

Democrats have always been racist POS.

Not according to historical accounts and we weren't there.

From one commenter in 2016 from my source above, is this still a true statement in some instances:

To my mind the story is at least incomplete. Living in Arlington, Va, at the time, my neighbors from R.I. confirmed my observation that Yankee Republicans were more conservative than the Democrats. In fact, it was still much about Union vs. Confederacy.

Has the division been there all along and always will be?

a reply to: eluryh22
So true.

That's progressive just for being progressive. The world isn't black or white, it's shades of everything in between.

a reply to: DISRAELI

or its an evolution of tactics.

Blair's labour and the conservatives are excellent examples of the left attacking the right from the right and now the right attacking the left from the left and its that export we are seeing..

its all very muddled but the Americanisation is just as gloss for the reverse.

its why I see 2 reformations underway an English and a continental one, few things outside terfdom can broach the divides across the nations of the uk and across Europe, certainl in ways the left/right could never achieve.

the way the culture wars have been fought, the entrenched positions people have taken the hills they have chosen to die on have set up the situation where the coming elections will be pivotal but not for trad left/right but rather to get out of the illiberal undemocratic cul de sac the culture wars have trapped the legacy parties and media in..

a reply to: quintessentone

I would argue far more insular and parochial.. they sit and home and think that means they understand the world and that it revolves around them like a pretty pick and mix..

previous generations lived in the world they lived under different systems seeing the good and bad..

we saw it post Brexit the demand to adopt German laws as it would negate the democratic outcome its not worldly thinking its childish and insular seeking to find ways to get what they want..

I can drop into anywhere in the world and I'd thrive, i know it I've done it and I've seen those who fail.... I know I am an internationalist and not a child that needs the world to shape to my whims..

a reply to: watchitburn

When I was growing up, this was the absolute truth. In my own family.

originally posted by: nickyw
a reply to: quintessentone

I would argue far more insular and parochial.. they sit and home and think that means they understand the world and that it revolves around them like a pretty pick and mix..

previous generations lived in the world they lived under different systems seeing the good and bad..

we saw it post Brexit the demand to adopt German laws as it would negate the democratic outcome its not worldly thinking its childish and insular seeking to find ways to get what they want..

I can drop into anywhere in the world and I'd thrive, i know it I've done it and I've seen those who fail.... I know I am an internationalist and not a child that needs the world to shape to my whims..

It's not a matter of needing the international political perspective, it's being global and connected to others of your generation who are evolving together in their own reality of their learning and experiences and challenging the status quo.

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: TurkeyGoose

I've also heard from some old timers that the philosophies of both parties has flipped or reversed over time.

Here is a comparison of philosophies now:

www.diffen.com...

Here is a comparison of philosophies back then:

In 1960, the Civil Rights issue was rolling to the forefront – and it was the large bloc of Southern voters; Democrats, who were violently opposed to Integration and voters rights. In many ways, the Republican Party of 1960 was much more liberal and left-leaning than many of the Democrats at the time.

We sometimes forget the roles of the two parties had almost become reversed by the time the 70s came about. Even as early as 1962, there was a movement afoot to take the Republican Party to a hard right, just as the Democratic party of Kennedy and Johnson were taking the Democratic party to the left of center and distancing themselves from the Dixiecrats of the South, who would eventually drop their party affiliation and head over to the GOP.

pastdaily.com...

with regard to the civil rights thing, the left didn't flip, they just decided rather than fight it, they could use it as a political cudule and milk the minorities for votes, while "keeping them in their place" by making sure they get just enough welfare to keep them in the plantation public housing.

The right has been about teaching a man to fish so they don't have to always give him their leftover bait.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: TurkeyGoose

I've also heard from some old timers that the philosophies of both parties has flipped or reversed over time.

Here is a comparison of philosophies now:

www.diffen.com...

Here is a comparison of philosophies back then:

In 1960, the Civil Rights issue was rolling to the forefront – and it was the large bloc of Southern voters; Democrats, who were violently opposed to Integration and voters rights. In many ways, the Republican Party of 1960 was much more liberal and left-leaning than many of the Democrats at the time.

We sometimes forget the roles of the two parties had almost become reversed by the time the 70s came about. Even as early as 1962, there was a movement afoot to take the Republican Party to a hard right, just as the Democratic party of Kennedy and Johnson were taking the Democratic party to the left of center and distancing themselves from the Dixiecrats of the South, who would eventually drop their party affiliation and head over to the GOP.

pastdaily.com...

with regard to the civil rights thing, the left didn't flip, they just decided rather than fight it, they could use it as a political cudule and milk the minorities for votes, while "keeping them in their place" by making sure they get just enough welfare to keep them in the plantation public housing.

The right has been about teaching a man to fish so they don't have to always give him their leftover bait.

The fishing seems to reflect salmon swimming upstream to a jump a waterfall where the elitists control the height and force of the water at that waterfall. People may learn how to fish but why bother when there aren't any fish left to fish because now the waterfall is too high and the rushing water is too strong for the fish to overcome?

originally posted by: watchitburn
a reply to: quintessentone

That’s BS.

Only about 4 democrats in office switched parties between the 60s and the 90s.

The republicans didn't have a majority in any southern States until the mid 90s.

Democrats have always been racist POS.

Exactly...

a reply to: TurkeyGoose

Can you please describe your dad's beliefs and what he believes in to call you on the left? Based on what you said you believe in, your brothers are correct, you seem to be on the very, very far right spectrum in today's times.

Everything you've listed about the government, support of Russia, climate change isn't real etc... all of that is MAGA thinking and there is no organization or a group existing today that is to the right of MAGA.

If I'm wrong maybe someone can correct me... in today's USA is any group of people considered more right than MAGA?

_______________________________

Edit to add:

I saw this comic a couple of weeks ago. Wanted to find it and post it here. I think it's fitting for this topic.

The way the sides have changed:

a reply to: TurkeyGoose

''Traditional left and right'' ? I think not. Both play out their limited ability to at least pretend to fulfill their promises to their limited constituency, What I see is that the constituency of both traditional and shallow parties have grown fed up over the ineffectiveness of this system and have become more radicalized. Sure, more of the left side started radicalizing in the late sixties but the right side has certainly caught up.