Observe for yourself

I say that what is true for you is what you have observed yourself. And when you lose that, you have lost everything. See what you see, not what someone tells you that you see. The ultimate freedom depends on knowing the ultimate Truth. Truth is not what people say it is, it is what it is. And Truth, quite remarkably, sets one free, just like philosophers have said down the ages. So I must ask you, are you making your life or is life making you? Some people can not overcome their programming and evolve past the level of an NPC. Others can become a fully awakened intelligence. They must understand that this body that we identify with is not us, but a vehicle, like a video games character model, for us to interact in this world. This shall be the truth that will outlast the universe.

a reply to: AwakenWithMe

We are but grains of sand in the Universe of Universes....mind boggling...on off to the Cosmos of Eternity...

You know what the obvious truth to truth itself is? Being. There can be no truth without life.

Life itself...is the greatest "truth".

Hey, God Bless ya. Cya.....!

a reply to: AwakenWithMe

Completely agree. I was talking about a quite similar issue with a friend of mine today.

We don't have to shape how other people see us; their perceptions belong to them, and it is not our purview to shape them. Likewise, we can view others through the lens in which we filter them and the world.

I am a scientist. I have not made a living doing that for more than 30 years, but I was born a scientist and that has been my life since I was a child. I like to do my own research, and arrive at my own conclusions. I remain always willing to have my mind changed with the presentation of superior data. We are that which we choose, or more properly, that which we accept and embrace. We are always free to choose another existance, but rarely have the stones to do so, even when trapped in a negative life.

I think our body is just a meat and bone armor to protect the brain, which is an organic house for our awareness and spirit.

Here's the thing: I am 65 years old. I never, ever thought I would live to be this old; I always thought that my ripping lifestyle would kill me far before now. So now, every day is literally a gift which I unwrap every morning. There is no "THE" truth. There is My truth (which for me trumps everything else) and there is Your truth. Truth doesn't equal facts. 'Facts" are ideas which have sufficient evidence to be considered inviolate. 'Truth' is something related, but different. 'Truth' is al collection of ideals which shape our awareness, and our perceptions. If we are super, super lucky, we end up in a compound of people whose 'truth' is similar enough as to allow us to coexist without rancor.

That's all there is. Get along and live. We once lived such that all our efforts contributed to the whole of our local community. That is almost still true for small rural communities. Now, our food and our power and everything else that sustains us comes from somewhere else, and people we don't even know toil for those goods. If we want very much to be a part of a local system, we can choose to live in a small community, for the illusion of contributing locally toward the common good.

We get along in our local community, and hope to not die prematurely. Humans are creatures FAR more vulnerable than we give ourselves credit for. We see ourselves as invincible. We are not. THAT is the truth. ;o)

originally posted by: AwakenWithMe
I say that what is true for you is what you have observed yourself. And when you lose that, you have lost everything. See what you see, not what someone tells you that you see. The ultimate freedom depends on knowing the ultimate Truth. Truth is not what people say it is, it is what it is. And Truth, quite remarkably, sets one free, just like philosophers have said down the ages. So I must ask you, are you making your life or is life making you? Some people can not overcome their programming and evolve past the level of an NPC. Others can become a fully awakened intelligence. They must understand that this body that we identify with is not us, but a vehicle, like a video games character model, for us to interact in this world. This shall be the truth that will outlast the universe.

Well Said . Do I Know you Brother ? .........Hmm..

originally posted by: AwakenWithMe
... Truth is not what people say it is, it is what it is.

Depends on what these people are saying whether or not what they are saying is true. For example, if someone were to say that our consciousness, or a person, continues his/her/its existence after the physical body dies (as per the myth of an immortal immaterial soul), then that would not be true. In that case I would agree with you that truth is not what (some) people are saying (on that subject in particular). If that is what they are saying.

Obviously this is not always the case, you and other people could also say something that happens to be true.

You are somewhat shooting yourself in the foot when you first warn us that "truth is not what people say it is", and then go on to tell us what "the truth that will outlast the universe" is. How can anyone who takes the first warning seriously trust that what you say is actually true? You are part of the group described as "people", aren't you?

originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: AwakenWithMe
... Truth is not what people say it is, it is what it is.

Depends on what these people are saying whether or not what they are saying is true. For example, if someone were to say that our consciousness, or a person, continues his/her/its existence after the physical body dies (as per the myth of an immortal immaterial soul), then that would not be true. In that case I would agree with you that truth is not what (some) people are saying (on that subject in particular). If that is what they are saying.

Obviously this is not always the case, you and other people could also say something that happens to be true.

You are somewhat shooting yourself in the foot when you first warn us that "truth is not what people say it is", and then go on to tell us what "the truth that will outlast the universe" is. How can anyone who takes the first warning seriously trust that what you say is actually true? You are part of the group described as "people", aren't you?

The most valuable asset we have, actually, is our ability to understand, to do the right thing, to be kind, to be decent. Freedom is for honest people. No man who is not himself honest can be free – he is his own trap. The test of true competence is the end result. Insecurity exists in the absence of knowledge. All security derives from knowledge. All real difficulty stems from no responsibility. Full responsibility is not fault; it is recognition of being cause. I don't need to be told I'm am correct, we will just assume it.

a reply to: AwakenWithMe

I think a frightening part of this existence is that you can make yourself believe any "truth" to be Truth.

Also, believing something so much materializes it (within the realm of possibility) in your life.

My biggest question is - how far does belief go? Can you materialize truth beyond this life? (aka, death)

We don't KNOW, but things come to be true when we fixate. Such as - you believing you are going to be a great guitar player, then 10 years down the road you've been practicing and now you can shred. Law of attraction type stuff. How far does it go?


The word Truth is very malleable for me.

a reply to: AwakenWithMe

Remembering your crayons before that hand or mouth took it out to "correct" it to match/mirror their world view to make a poppet out of you in a weak display of incompetence/insecurity in trying to dominate the indomitable spirit within is a difficult task to fight against when ahimsa(non-violence) is not observed... it a sort of mental cloning or marriage of better or worse and not ones own course or cause and effect then leaps in as if you are failing them when it was always them failing them-self in not having what it is they've felt they have lacked and in admiration instead of seeing those qualities in another and not saying it is the individual that it arises from but their experiences then that is how they fail in what is it? as I too can gain such a thing with practice of those qualities instead of drag this other around like a safety net or blanket as a self when it is not as one.

The delusion is the mirror in twining it to consciousness and the catch all is when those under that spell or delusion say: We are one as if that delusion is a solidarity when if is not anything other than affirming such a delusion instead of an actual reality.

The self actualized meaning the entire sum of one that has one is often followed and preyed upon for just such a read on and when liberty is the sate of law then they use and abuse those civil liberties to perform such a thing as crime etc against someone instead of learn such a thing themselves the result is ALWAYS a rotten egg not being genuine or the source of them as a self in not having one but a contrived one made up and picked like seven puzzles in one box with the correct amount of bones but the wrong flesh to complete it.

Of course society as a whole in herding etc to such a thing in popular culture only drives it to extremes in a profit driven manner to uphold systems that imprison and weaken and worsen it instead of actually make it stronger from betting profiling and accusing someone as being someone they are not... just like for which "IT" stands the very concept of freedom should NOT making it a very difficult conundrum and yet why so many people hermit hide or move to where no one knows them and hide it to not be singled out and stalked any more... But then the rumor mill grinds and the thinking people arent following to pry and find our not really caring then too many steps were taken to hide from the WEAK, jealous and pathetic.

jsyk in connecting with some what is called "celebrity" I honestly see them as a: Prostitute that has sold them self in body speech and image and acting in public as better than anyone else seriously stupid... kinda like a thief going door to door haven't you seen my wanted poster? Then when caught being ignored? "Dont you know who I am?" Yes; FAKE. Such a truth should wake them up or not since they cant really own them-self any longer many manage to emancipate from parents etc but from what is known simply as the business or industry... difficult the industry backstage is typically a good place as talents not that as coaching etc unfortunately the dark side door to those looking to get in is around when if those people were honest you could have it as id rather not have ever gotten involved with it. Strength building is what it does and if one doesn't break? Then it becomes character building or full circle of what is it that person has re as mentioned above? The worst is caving to the abhorrent sexual cravings and trafficking of humans in what is simply the circuit and allowed to be abused by the highest bidder with people that should protect looking the other way then oathing in and out of various scapegoating offices ect and or trying to character assassinate but that true self cannot be taken away as said with the indomitable spirit within. As in its just a job it does not and has not ever defined "me".

a reply to: AwakenWithMe

Are you suggesting there is no such thing as objective facts?

a reply to: AwakenWithMe

The ultimate freedom depends on knowing the ultimate Truth.

Freedom is illusory AwakenWithMe.

At least it is when humans require interaction with one another in groups.

What do you consider the "ultimate Truth" to be, as i imagine that would depend on perspective?

So I must ask you, are you making your life or is life making you?

Social circumstances and geography dictate a person's station in this life, people may well have the ability to change that fact, but its not as easy as just said and done.

In answer to the question through, six of one and a half dozen of the other i should imagine.

You play the cards you are dealt.

a reply to: Crowfoot

Aren't we all required to prostitute ourselves in some way to 'fit in' to the herding socialized framework? How do any of us break free and truly nurture the real me/us. Even the thinking person must back away to some extent for fear of being ostrasized and isolated. Loneliness can be detrimental to one's health so it boils down to one's choices, or lack of choices.

To AwakenWithMe:

It may be impossible to observe ourselves and our accepted realities in a complete manner because we all also operate, at different degrees or some not at all, on preconscious and subconscious levels. Where some of us can manifest or shape our dreams to push preconscious into the realm of consciousness, not all of us can interpret what we are trying to understand about ourselves and our reality. Others can interpret these inner rumblings which were buried there for perhaps a forgotten reason, then again not really forgotten if manifested in dreams.

It almost seems there is a push/pull force getting in the way of our self-awakening. I suppose that's why Buddha had to leave everyone and everything behind to pursue a path of enlightenment but was he ever really alone?

Maybe it's both AwakenWithMe: Life is making us and we are making life, the two can never be separated.

Nobody isn't observing for himself, ever and stating the obvious in this case is oppression.

a reply to: quintessentone
I suppose the not professing it is what leads both to; A state of grace and an ability to fall. In the everyone has a price or weakness factor... No matter what arises or no matter threat to friends, relatives, co workers or property in not dictating the individual realty is the only real way to win. However; Army after army is built as an fyi in a practice of such as that.

What is common? All life requires some sort of food, shelter from the elements using the elements based on the extremes of the extents found for their ability to move and subsist based on their own cutting back that those that may wish to join a non existing side as it may appear well, appears too extreme and abandons any and all ideas of; Hey I wanted to join them... which of course results in the death of the individual and the freedom they enjoyed if such a thing is accepted and then right back into bondage being responsible for more than oneself.

a reply to: quintessentone

Aren't we all required to prostitute ourselves in some way to 'fit in' to the herding socialized framework? How do any of us break free and truly nurture the real me/us. Even the thinking person must back away to some extent for fear of being ostrasized and isolated. Loneliness can be detrimental to one's health so it boils down to one's choices, or lack of choices.

Is it one or the other? A beautiful quote by Nisargadatta Maharaj might suggest otherwise ...."Wisdom tells me I am nothing. Love tells me I am everything. Between the two my life flows.". You not need appear dead to the world. You only need the world to appear dead to you. No longer desiring to taste forbidden fruits.

a reply to: glend

Siddhartha Gautama from the same area would say that; That is only halfway across... Even though he said hate only ceases by hate it goes without saying that although love and hate are wholly two separate things and not opposites; The illusion is that they are and for total liberation one must put an end to both hate and love as: Twice liberated for the complete uprooting of karma.

a reply to: Crowfoot

I understand what you saying. But I used "love" to describe the bliss one feels in a state of samadhi. Not the minds duality of love which is aligned with egotistical desires. That is not to say I am free of those dualities. But I am a work in progress. I step forward, two backward's, it seem's.

a reply to: glend

Might want to look into the Dharmata then as, Wicca says as above so below; The dhamma says; Samma samma as far as the elements within and without go they are just there the arising one experiences is not necessarily "self" based so looking into it to see the source that; That arising is dependent on for arising negates it then and there or puts the fire out.

There is a hotly debated topic on this currently as; Attachment to such states as you've described; As seeing the arising clearly is as if seeing a mirror of light and shadows not doing that then ensnared once again in the dance of skandha.

As much as I have tried the bhramaviharas it's clear that it was an addition to cannon by the Mahayanist as a condition for India to sanction them in title and practice as; Buddhist. Personal sanction to do that; As an individual practitioner is not difficult, allowing one to skip the monastic route(it's what I have done).

a reply to: Crowfoot

I try to see things as simplistic as I can. I see the mind as noise. The watcher as silence. I am attracted to the noise because for most of my life that has been my normal existence. Existing in memories, daydreaming of desire after desire. In overcoming many of my desires the noise of mind has lessened. The difference between the mind and watcher less prominent.

However, in place of the noise of thought, another noise has appeared. That of the nada, the unstuck sound. Which if I am not mistaken is called the holy ghost in Christianity. So instead of existing in silence I now listen to the nada (playing cymbals currently). When the nada is not there. I know I have spent too much time existing in thought. I need balance the two rather than allow one to over empower the other.

Buddha warned in Diamond Sutra if we do not burn the roots of all our desires a falling back will occur. That has certainly happened to me. So instead of turning my back on desires. I instead examine my desires through self-enquiry seeing them empty of everlasting happiness. The nada brings long forgotten memories to forefront of my conciousness. I just acknowledge those memories without trying to relive those memories. I see it as a cleansing process.

a reply to: glend

That silence will come on it's own same way jhana does; When your practice ripens for it to occur... I for the life of me; Can't get rid of mine it's been over eight years now.

a reply to: Crowfoot

I practice a meditation called yoga nidra (yogic sleep) for 1-2 hours every morning at 3am. The goal is to attain a state in which there is no sensation of your body at all (breath etc). It should help control your wayward mind. All you have to do is lay down in bed and imagine you are sinking into the mattress. First your legs then move up the body as those parts of body get heavier. Keep on sinking until you loose feeling of your entire body. You may experience a high pitch noise as the body enters a realm that I believe is our inner chamber. Just bathe in that emptiness for hour or so.