Mormons baptizing Jews, posthumously

abcnews.go.com...

Jews and Mormons decided Monday to jointly scrutinize a Mormon database that includes the names of thousands of deceased Jews including Holocaust victims who were given unwanted, posthumous baptisms.

A committee with members of both religions will study how names get into the massive International Genealogical Index which has an estimated 4 million entries what processes are followed, and how greater order can be brought to the unwieldy listing.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes individuals' ability to choose a religion continues beyond the grave. Through its unique practice of proxy or vicarious baptisms, names are forwarded for baptism, and church members stand in for deceased non-Mormons. The church believes the ritual is required for the dead to reach heaven.

Researchers found the names of Holocaust victims in the church's massive index more than a decade ago. After Jewish leaders protested, the two sides signed an agreement in 1995, and about 380,000 names of Holocaust victims were removed.

The agreement also called for no further proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims, celebrities or people who are not relatives of those seeking the baptism.But Jewish leaders claim Mormons continue to posthumously baptize Jews and Holocaust victims. They said the meetings Sunday and Monday followed a decade of frustration over what they called broken promises.

Wow. So according to Mormans the can convert anyone to thier own religion after they died? and even after they were told not to by Jewsih leaders they kept on doing it?

Maybe they should start with atheists and agnostics instead of Jews? Supposadly they babtized Anne Frank posthumously allready

[edit on 12-4-2005 by Nygdan]

Considering that the action of "baptism of the dead" is total bunk anyway, it doesn't mean a thing.

Thats why they are considered a cult or at the very least not christian in theological studies and even in philosophical studies.

If they followed christian docturine they would see that baptisim is useless on a dead person. And if you practice protestant christianity it doesnt save you, you have to believe it in your heart. So if they died not believing.... the Bible clearly states that God will then judge their hearts and there is nothing that human beings can do..especially baptize them once they are dead what the heck is that gonna do? Its the same as them sneaking up on somebody and splashing water in their face and saying "OK YOU ARE BAPTIZED NOW!! HAHHAHA YOU ARE ONE OF US !!!"

Sometime people can be REALLY ...well nvm im just gonna end it here



[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]

[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]

Mormons are sure an odd bunch.

I dont know which group i find more "cultish" mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses?

Actually, when a mormen asks me what i believe, and i tell them im a protestant Christian they usually are kind and dont bother me.

On the other hand i work with this lady and she started making all of this crazy biblical interpretations and i made the mistake of asking her what denomination she was and i swear her face changed (lol) and she said "im one of jehovah's witnesses". and now she brings in these watch tower booklets for me all the time and keeps wanting to debate me.

I also remember a couple years ago i was at my friends house and her mom shouted "get away from all the windows and turn off the TV the Jehovah witnesses are coming to the door!" My friends mom was jewish and she would told us that "the jews are prizes to them. they are top priority to convert." LOLOL so we hid in the corner and we were all trying not to laugh because ,my friends mom found humor in the situation too but you knew she wasnt joking when she said to get away from those windows LOLOLOL.

so in my HOP they are both crazy cult groups but JW's are way more intrusive in my experiences with them.


[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]

Originally posted by Grey Fox
Mormons are sure an odd bunch.

You have no idea - but just to really get you going....Mormon Science and Space doctrine

Cosmology

- God says the correct name for our Sun is "Shinehah," which is the name He gave it. Also, the correct name of the moon is "Olea." See Abraham 3:13.

- God lives on a giant crystal ball. See D&C 130:6-8.

- God's home planet orbits a star named "Kolob." See Abraham 3:3

- Kolob is "the great governing star of our universe" and "the residence of God." See Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith's "Church History and Modern Revelation" Volume 3, Page 60.

- The Sun "borrows it's light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash.. which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars.. and receives light from the revolutions of Kolob." This quote comes directly from the Book of Abraham, Facsimile Number 2, Explanation for Figure 5. Also see: nowscape.com...

- The Sun is a celestialized world, where its inhabitants are perfected. The Prophet Brigham Young taught in General Conference: "So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized." See Journal of Discourses, 13:271. Also see Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1 Page 88: "Earth to be Celestialized Sun"

- The Earth will undergo a perfection after the millenium and become a huge seer stone of glass. People living on the Earth after this transformation will be able to look into the Earth and see things happening on "inferior" planets. See D&C 130:9

B.

Bleys, thanks for that info, I never knew that.

I'm wondering if the terms they're using are supposed to be based on ancient hebrew since that was the first language the bible was written in. If so just for everyone's information the Sun in hebrew is "Shemesh" and the moon is "Levana". Also in Hebrew the term for a great light (celestial body) is a "Maor" from the root "or" which means light.

Very interesting stuff!

[edit on 4-12-2005 by Djarums]

Not only is this not a conspiracy, it is also not recent, and an example of bigotted views coupled with an insular mindset to villianize something one has no real knowledge of.

I am not a mormon anymore but I feel compelled to stick up for a religion I was raised in and is misunderstood and villianized by people with nothing better to do. Yes there are psychos and molesters and every other type of deviant sheltering within the walls of the faith. But what faith can claim a membership devoid of these people?

In my opinion the baptisms for the dead idea is much less cruel than most religions insistence that if you don't pick right in life you are more or less screwed. The ritual is based around the belief that after death but before the time of judgement all souls are given the chance to convert to mormonism thereby meeting the final requirement to achieve the mormon heaven. As such you must still have lived a good life in the traditional christian sense. It is also believed that during the millenium of christs rule mentioned in revelations all those who have died without baptism will have this ritual done for them giving them the ability to go to heaven.

Yes they have a kooky religion and the baptisms for the dead thing is weird. It is not however sinister and is done with the sincere belief by the people doing it that they are doing something good. But even they concede that this ritual will only benefit you if you CHOOSE it to.

Thanks for the link and unbiased commentary Bleys. To the rest of you, be assured that no matter how strange you think mormons they think you just as strange.

I am glad that you agree that baptism of the dead is a kooky belief. It is biblically wrong, has no historical, pre mormon, antecedents, and might as well be done using a computer program for its effectiveness.

Your 3rd paragraph seems contadictory, if souls have not lead a good life on earth, and made the wrong chances, why should they get a second chance after death? If they do get a second chance then where does the involuntary baptism, seemingly against their wishes, get any validity? The concept of "choice" is absent.

However this tantrum over us discussing it, or describing it as so is uncalled for. We are equal opportuninty kooky religion bashers. Considering the bashing that christianity gets in the religion forum, in which your squeal is largly absent, it seems suprising that you venture forth on this occasion.

From what I've been taught, it's not necessarily baptism that saves you anyways...it's the belief in Jesus, the repentance of past sins, and the willingness to be led by God's spirit that does that. babtism is just a cleansing ceremony.....it cleanses the vessel and makes it like new.

I don't think it would "save" anyone. But it might enable the spirits of holocaust victims to rest more peacably.

I knew some one who died a few years back. One member of the family was mormon. the deceased was lutheran, the other was a disenchanted pentacostal, and well the last one just didn't care much about the religion. For some reason, the mormon seemed to go through alot of trouble to gain custody (dropped like a bombshell on the rest of the family be the funeral director) to gain custody of the remains, which they then took back to mormonland never to be returned. Anyone know, did the Mormon see any advantage (as far as the deceased soul's positon in the afterlife) in taking the remains so far from home?

What gets me is that the Mormons think thier religion trumps other religions and they belive they have a chance to win conerts after they have died. WOuldn't it be better to try and sve the living? Next thing you know Mormans are going ot be flying cropdusters filled with holy water and a loudspeaker systems. They will go over stadiums and concerts babtizing people in mass.

Babtizum is not how you get into heaven, but it certainly helps you with your faith to enable you to go into heaven. Tho I fail to see how things can change after you die.

Maybe jews should start doing proxy posthumous circumcision and bar mizvahs on dead mormans to convert them to Judasium

Originally posted by Jehosephat
Wow. So according to Mormans the can convert anyone to thier own religion after they died? and even after they were told not to by Jewsih leaders they kept on doing it?

As others have said, this has been their practice for at least a century and this is why the very best geneaological database in the world is, in fact, the records kept by the Mormon Temple.

This was their answer to the conundrum: "God loves everybody but he's going to send everyone but members of OUR religion to hell -- even babies and otherwise blameless people." As long as the person's name could be delivered and a family connection shown, they would arrange for a posthumus baptism so that this person could be sent to heaven.

There's all sorts of people in there who probably wouldn't have agreed with Mormon theology, including Native Americans.

I find it no "kookier" than other religions which believe that they have the ONLY true way to heaven (the "convert or suffer the torment of the damned for eternity" religions.) At least they have an "escape clause."

I always though baptism in order to work you have to be willing and occurs conscious and alive.

I come from a split seventh day adventist and Catholic home so I got baptized two times.

Occurs it was my parent's choice. But I find kind of morbid in a way picturing a group of people going around baptizing the death.

Not Exactly Something To Worry About

If the Mormons are wrong, then their posthumous baptisms are utterly meaningless, and thus nothing to get uptight about.

On the other hand, if they are right, then hey, they just bought you a free ticket into heaven.

Of course, that requires that they be right, which, based on my own studies of the LDS church, is something of a hit-or-miss proposition.

They do have some very cool ideas, some of which I agree with.

But mixed in with those are some things that would make even the most whacked-out schizophrenic offer them his anti-psychotic medications out of compassion.

Some LDS “scriptures” contradict other parts, which have been carefully weeded out over successive revisions of church texts. Nonetheless that fact that this has been done can be proven because many of the old texts have been kept unmodified for historical reasons.

It all makes for quite a mind game, overall, and God bless 'em, every Mormon I've known was a wonderful person. But every one of them had major issues trying to make sense of it all, and usually just “left it up to their bishop”.

When you consider "God's sacred truth" to be a matter of the declarations of man, you pretty much open the door to just about every manner of self-deceit the human mind can conceive of.

I don't wish to knock the Mormons at all. They tend to be very nice people as a general rule, and really aren't any more given to self-deceit than anyone else.

But like all authoritarian, hierarchical religious systems that claim to speak on God's behalf, the LDS church has its major issues. It goes with the turf.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
Maybe they should start with atheists and agnostics instead of Jews?

That'd make more sense, wouldn't it? I appreciate ya Jehosephat.

netchicken says:

"Considering that the action of "baptism of the dead" is total bunk anyway, it doesn't mean a thing....I am glad that you agree that baptism of the dead is a kooky belief. It is biblically wrong, has no historical, pre mormon, antecedents, and might as well be done using a computer program for its effectiveness."

I consider your comments as offensive as I would someone's referring to Jews as 'kikes" or Blacks as "niggars".

Although I am not LDS and disagree with much of their theology (including proxy baptisms and marriages), I consider any attack on a person's belief system -- especially if it's a faith-based system -- to be, quite simply, crude.

If a Mormon were to come to me and try to prove that there was something to his belief and tried to use "facts" to do so, I'd be on him like white on rice. I'd ask for evidence for his "facts" just as I do to those people who claim that they have "proof" of "chem-trails" or the Little Purple Men from Arcturus.

But a person's faith, whether or not you and I agree with it, is a much more private and innate part of his being, and by insulting his faith, you are insulting him. I would've hoped that, of all people, a super moderator would at least pay lip service to the idea of polite and courteous discourse.

Shame, Netchicken!

So, is there a 'dis-baptismal' ceremony that can be performed for Joseph Smith?

Ah, yes, here it is.

*mumbles mumbles* *waves hands* *puts old water into cup*

Congratulations Prophet Smith, you are formally un-baptised.

Now just step on this plate.
*Joseph Smith Steps on Plate*

L'Chaim!

Well, how about this, instead of them being wrong, and nothing happening. Or them being right and your all saved how about a third option.

The sacrament they use works, but thier religion is wrong so instead of possibly being saved in the "Right religion" you are now damned for being a LDS/Morman.

Some religions could be offended by this practice. In a way it is a subtle way of saying Mormans are right, and everyone else is wrong. My belief doesn't care what they do when I am dead, but I worry for them doing something that is removing people from saving faith in the Lord

This stuff has been going on for a very long time. If I have been baptized then I consider myself lucky. Mayhap their belief will work for me. If not, then some day mayhap they will baptize me and I will enter the kingdom. Or it's a not real thing and it won't matter. Either way it isn't a bother.

And I agree, generally, with Off_the_street... I might think your religion is the craziest thing since pet rocks, but I suspect I would never tell you that to your face.

I think some of you may be missing a piece of this when you say "it does no harm even if it does no good" - not true from a Jewish perspective. This is a desecration of a high order! How dare they?!

I generally had nothing against Mormons or the Mormon church until I heard this but now, I think they are arrogant, rude, and just-short of evil! This just steams my ass that they would desecrate the memory of Jewish Holocaust victims in this way!

Mormons? are you listening? we do not want any part of your supposedly divine Jesus! He was not and never has been the true Messiah upon which we still patiently wait. We do not want to be posthumously duped!