A Lesser One is Greater Than He

originally posted by: nugget1
a reply to: randomuser

Instead of seeking their Creator, they turn to mere mundane vices to give them temporary pleasure. But that ultimately leaves them scared, abused, and hopeless. And thus we have a world filled with people chasing after the wind in a hopeless search for fulfillment and happiness that can only be found in serving God.

I won't disagree with you, but will say there are other ways to view the Creator than from the many different established religious views.

Some think a relationship with the Almighty has perhaps been corrupted with the almighty collection plate. If one wants to follow Jesus example and teachings the last place that comes to my mind is the opulent churches that profess to be doing his works.

One day science may discover that even though animals aren't able to communicate they may actually be more sentient than we realize. Of course, that goes against the relatively new Biblical philosophy which we should take as gospel because....why again?

Believing in a Supreme Being and the hereafter is a choice ,a personal choice, no matter how you cut it.

The world is full of people who want to push their choices on others. In order to make that work thousands of years of history have to deliberately be ignored.

I appreciate where you're coming from. And respect your point of view. Certainly religion has been the cause of much evil throughout history. And no one should ever force anything on another. God created us with freewill to chose for ourselves.

Of course there is evidence that the Bible is inspired. Hmm..you know there is a brochure that does a very good job going through explaining some of this convincing proof. Here it is:

A Book For All People

It is my opinion you may find the evidence brought out in it worthy of attention.

originally posted by: SeaWorthy
a reply to: nugget1

So true we always have choice!
I note how many Scientists are now saying we are indeed made not evolved. The more they learn the less they can continue in that old story. Look up some there are many many of them now telling their stories.

I enjoyed the video on design in biochemical systems. Thanks for sharing. You brought up good points about the evilness of the people back then as well. Too many people judge God without being there. They actually judge blindly without knowing any of the facts. That is not a failure on God's part, but on the part of the judgemental human.

It brings to mind an interview I watched with a biochemist:

A Biochemist Explains His Faith

Here are a few other good ones:

A Physician Explains Her Faith

A Roboticist Explains His Faith

A Pediatrician Explains His Faith

A Brain Researcher Explains His Faith

a reply to: randomuser

I've personally gotten to know a few JW's throughout my life. As is my habit, I did some research into the history of their beliefs to try and understand. I'm not a fan of self deception, nor do I believe any organized religion has gotten it right, especially the ones that hyper-focus on some passages, add to or take away from the book they believe is the Holy Word.

Jehovah's Witnesses, JW's, Russellism
Founder: Charles Taze Russell

Overview
Jehovah's Witnesses trace their origins to the nineteenth century Adventist movement in America . That movement began with William Miller, a Baptist lay preacher who, in the year 1816, began proclaiming that Christ would return in 1843. His predictions of the Second Coming or Second Advent captured the imagination of thousands in Baptist and other mainline churches. Perhaps as many as 50,000 followers put their trust in Miller's chronological calculations and prepared to welcome the Lord, while, as the appointed time approached, others watched nervously from a distance. Recalculations moved the promised second advent from March, 1843 to March, 1844, and then to October of that year. Alas, that date too passed uneventfully.

After the "Disappointment of 1844" Miller's following fell apart, with most of those who had looked to him returning to their respective churches before his death in 1849. But other disappointed followers kept the movement alive, although in fragmented form. Their activities eventually led to the formation of several sects under the broad heading of "Adventism" including the Advent Christian Church, the Life and Advent Union, the Seventh-Day Adventists, and various Second Adventist groups.

Jehovah's Witnesses, likewise, trace their roots back to the Adventists. But they do not often admit this to outsiders; nor do many Witnesses know the details themselves. Jehovah's Witnesses are accustomed to defending themselves against the charge that they are a new religious cult. They will often respond that theirs is the most ancient religious group, older than Catholic and Protestant churches. In fact, they assert that "Jehovah's witnesses have a history almost 6,000 years long, beginning while the first man, Adam, was still alive," that Adam's son Abel was "the first of an unbroken line of Witnesses," and that "Jesus' disciples were all Jehovah's witnesses [sic] too." (Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, pp. 8-9)

An outsider listening to such claims quickly realizes, of course, that the sect has simply appropriated unto itself all the characters named in the Bible as faithful witnesses of God. By such extrapolation the denomination is able to stretch its history back to the beginnings of the human family, at least in the eyes of adherents who are willing to accept such arguments. But outside observers generally dismiss this sort of rhetoric and instead reckon the Witnesses as dating back only to Charles Taze Russell, who was born on February 16, 1852, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

[www.eaec.org...]

I often wonder what kind of gigantic, elaborate church Christ would build to preach in and if he'd use tithes and the collection plate to build even more.

Seems to me we're worshiping the wrong way in all the wrong places. According to the Washington Post (pay wall) the US gives religions 82.5 billion dollars a year. When I look at the grandiose churches around town I can't imagine that being pleasing in any way to Jesus; it seems to be the exact opposite.

[www.washingtonpost.com...]

When a religion decides to pick and choose what parts of the Bible they're going to accept as valid and what parts they're going to ignore, I see that as a red flag.

JW Beliefs

They believe that Jesus did not rise from the dead. Russell says His body either dissolved into gases or is still preserved somewhere.

They believe that God is not triune (i.e., Father, Son, and Holy Ghost).

They believe that there is no such thing as a hell of everlasting torment. Hell is just the grave. The wicked are simply annihilated.

They believe that man has no spirit.

They believe the Holy Ghost is not a person of the Godhead, just a "life force" of God.

They exercise mind control over members.

They believe that man must work to be part of "God's system of things".

They believe that only the 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation will live in heaven with God.

They believe all dead people will have a second chance for eternal life at the millennium. If you do not prove worthiness at this time, you'll be destroyed.

The believe the blood of Christ does not forgive sins, it gives us a "chance" to live again. They have NO assurance of salvation as Jehovah's Witnesses who supposedly know the truth.

They believe Jesus is the archangel Michael - Jesus is a created being.

They believe Jesus is just an agent of God, nothing more.

They believe that Jesus' second coming occurred invisibly in 1874. Russell's successor, Rutherford, says this was confirmed by the creation of the first labor organization in 1874.

They believed Russell when he said that in 1914 the millennium would occur and righteousness would be restored to the earth. As 1914 approached, he, and his successor, changed the date to 1915, 1916, 1924, 1928, and on and on to the present day! When you ask a Jehovah's Witness about this, they'll give you the party line, "Well, the Watchtower is reaching different levels of enlightenment."

a reply to: nugget1

They believe that Jesus did not rise from the dead. Russell says His body either dissolved into gases or is still preserved somewhere.

Did you actually believe what was said about Russell? That thing about Jesus Christ is the most ridiculous, absurd thing I've ever heard. I mean a couple days ago I had another ATSer say he heard that JWs teach that Jesus is alive and hidden in a JW tower somewhere. I mean the lies people make up and others believe are simply incredible.

Did you know the JWs have a website you can go to and find out their teachings for yourself? Here it is: JW.ORG.

What I find curious is you have links to other sites but not anything official. Or even citations to quotes from the society. I mean Jesus didn't get resurrected, you really believe JWs believe that? You knew a few in your life, you should have taken the time to talk to a couple.

Here I did something for you. Here is a link that will take you directly to what they have written on Jesus Christ since 1986. There is a lot more available but this is a good starting point:

Jesus Christ

You can start under "Resurrection:"

resurrection: it-1 1197; w17.12 8-11; lfb 212-213; jy 304-305; w14 11/15 3-7; w13 3/1 3-7; g 12/13 11; w04 1/15 12; my story 102; lr 202-206; ct 161-162; gt chapter 128; si 180, 297

“appeared to angels” (1Ti 3:16): w90 1/15 13

as a spirit: ijwbq article 93; w20.12 11; it-2 1018; w14 11/15 4; rs 217, 334-335, 341-342

authenticity: w20.12 3, 5; wp16.2 4; w14 11/15 4-6; w13 3/1 4-6; w12 4/1 7; w09 5/1 7-8; w01 3/15 3-7; w95 8/15 10-11; sh 254-256; gm 78-84, 86; pe 169; w86 8/15 19; Lmn 19-20

body not resurrected: ijwbq article 93; w20.12 11; it-1 349, 841, 1197; it-2 786, 789-790; pe 143-145; rs 217-218, 334-335, 341-342

day of offering barley firstfruits: it-1 828, 837; it-2 528; w07 1/1 21; w07 7/15 26

“declared righteous in spirit” (1Ti 3:16): w90 1/15 13

empowered to perform future: it-2 783-785; re 28; w86 2/15 11-12, 19

“First and the Last” (Re 1:17; 2:8): w09 1/15 30-31; re 27-28, 37-38

“firstborn from the dead” (Re 1:5): it-1 836; re 18

“firstfruits” (1Co 15:20, 23): w20.12 5; w98 7/1 17

“first to be resurrected” (Ac 26:23): pe 172

foundation for new world: sh 375-376

from Hades: it-1 1016; w08 11/1 9

God’s Son by: it-2 1001

guarantee for others: w15 3/1 6-7; w13 3/1 7; w07 5/15 27; re 38; we 6; w98 7/1 16-17; sh 376; w89 6/15 7

heavenly: it-2 785-786

Jehovah’s power demonstrated: it-2 665

Peter and John investigate tomb: jy 304; w91 3/15 24; gt chapter 128

preaches to “spirits in prison” (1Pe 3:19): it-2 674; w13 6/15 23; w13 12/15 16; rs 163

significance: w14 11/15 6-7

whether Jesus resurrected himself (Joh 2:19): w13 3/1 6; rs 423-424
Resurrection



As for the 1914 I've had recent discussions about his on ATS with several members. All of them again weren't citing any real quotes from the JW literature, just misrepresentations and lies from outside sources. Which I find quite perplexing when you have the source available to you.

I actually have a thread about 1914 here:

Pieces of a Divine Puzzle Come Together - A Timeline Decoded

You seem to me to be a fairly intelligent person. Don't be so easily bamboozled with false stories, lies, and half truths.

I deal with the subject of the 144,000 regularly with ATSers, and wrote actually a nice thread on it awhile ago here:

Who Are the 144,000.

I see you have written many lies, after more lies. I wonder if you would be interested into finding out for yourself what the truth is? I've been to JW meetings for decades and can tell you with 100% certainty they definitely don't pick and chose what they want to believe from the Bible. And they definitely don't teach that Jesus wasn't resurrected from the dead. I just recently posted on Jesus' resurrection:

"For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.  But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence."-1 Corinthians 15:22-23.

Notice that Christ is the firstfruits. He is the first to be resurrected from the dead to heavenly life.

Source.



ETA:

Jesus wasn't resurrected?

This is from my OP on this very thread:

Even after Jesus was resurrected they wanted to know if he was going to restore the kingdom to Israel at that time.

What Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe

From the official source.

a reply to: randomuser

As for the 1914 I've had recent discussions about his on ATS with several members. All of them again weren't citing any real quotes from the JW literature, just misrepresentations and lies from outside sources. Which I find quite perplexing when you have the source available to you.

That's the thing about the JW religion; their beliefs and doctrine continually change. I prefer looking at the past history of a religion to see what m kind of man invented the doctrine according to his interpretation of what the Bible says.

Old Light, New Light & Black Light

When the organization wrote prophecies in the Watchtower magazine that failed, they use the terminology of "new light" to explain it away.

The concept of New light is taken from Proverbs 4:18

“But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.”

Typical of the JW's almost complete lack of Bible knowledge, this verse is not speaking about prophecy or direct revelation from God, but the righteous man's increasing ability to live a holier life with age and experience.

New Light should not contradict Old Light, but it often does with Jehovah's Witnesses.

The fact that Jehovah's Witnesses actually swallow this "New Light" explanation from the organization when prophecies fail is the ultimate testimony of their blind faith in false human organizations.

We invite all new Jehovah's Witness converts to closely decide for themselves if "New light" adds to "Old Light" or flatly contradicts it.

Will the men of Sodom be resurrected?

Yes; Watchtower 7/18/1879 p. 8

No; Watchtower 6/1/1952 p. 338

Yes; Watchtower78/1/1965 p. 47g

No; Watchtower7 6/1/1988 p. 31

Yes; Live Forever (old edition ) p. 179

No; Live Forever (new edition ) p. 179

Yes; Insight, volume 2, p. 985

No; Revelation book, p. 273

Contradictory light! BLINKING LIGHT! Not new light!

Examples
Old Light
Original prophecy New Light
More specific prophecy
(Adds to Old Light) Black Light
Failed prophecy
(contradicts Old Light)
We give an answer The answer is yes The answer is now no!
It will be a color It will be blue We were wrong about blue, it will now be red
It will rain It will rain today We were wrong about today, it will rain tomorrow
Armageddon is in the Bible Armageddon in 1925 &1975 We were wrong when we said 1925 &1975

Apostate Doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses

16 Truths that JW's Teach 14 Apostate and Anti-Biblical False Doctrines that JW's Teach
Bible is God's Word and is truth
Bible is more reliable than tradition
God's name is Jehovah
Christ's one sacrifice is sufficient
Human death is due to Adam's sin
Adamic death will cease
New covenant made with spiritual Israel
Christ's congregation is built upon himself
Images must not be used in worship
Spiritism must be shunned
Satan is invisible ruler of world
Christ is not equal to God because He is a creature

Christ was first of God's creations
Christ died on a stake, not a cross
Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person
Christ's presence is in spirit
Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated
Wicked will be eternally destroyed

The human soul ceases to exist at death
Hell is mankind's common grave
Only a little flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ
The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God

If you're going to proselytize on an open forum you're going to have to face some inconvenient challenges to your doctrine. It's all in the JW history, which curiously continues to evolve and change .......because the interpretation of the Scriptures keeps changing to suit man.

BTW, the practice of 'shunning' is abhorrent to me, but I guess we should be glad JW's don't embrace stoning too.

If you become a Jehovah's Witness and then leave them because of their false teachings, you will be literally shunned. Your family that remains in the organization will not be permitted to even talk to you!

[Jehovah's Witness (JW's)]

Calling me a liar because you don't like the source used to expose JW history makes it seem you've run out of valid excuses for defending a religion that picks and chooses what to follow and twists the Word to support their ideology.
Maybe an internet forum that allows open discussion isn't the optimal place to push a bastardized version of the Bible?
MHO

a reply to: nugget1

Jehovah's Witnesses don't have doctrine. That is not true. In fact that is one of the hallmarks of having the truth. Only believing what the Bible teaches. As their understanding of Bible truth progresses they are willing to change their understanding. Even servants of God in the Bible have had to do that. Just look at the examples in the OP of the very apostles who thought that Jesus' kingdom was going to rule while he was on earth. Just because they did not understand certain aspects of God's purposes and later had to change their thinking doesn't mean they didn't have the sayings of truth. It simply meant they didn't understand everything at that time.

Over the years I've read the majority of Russell's works and I can tell you for a fact he never ever wrote or taught or believed things you wrote about him above, such as he taught that Jesus never had a resurrection. Yes you did write a lie. I don't think you invented the lie. But I do believe you know it's not true. You will never be able provide proof of that. So why do you write it? Do you really believe that? And if you realize that you copy/pasted such an egregious lie what do you think about your source? If it is willing to write such blatant lies is it trustworthy?

And you have all of their writings and teachings at JW.ORG, and yet you won't use it to show us this supposed fact. I even gave you some direct links you can start your search on. What motivates you to write such lies? You know I don't sit here and write lies about others. There is no integrity in that. You will never find the truth that way either.

In the OP we discussed John the Baptist. People called him demon possessed because he didn't drink wine or eat. On the other hand people lied about Jesus and said he was a glutton because he did eat with sinners and drink wine. He wasn't too impressed or concerned about their lies, he merely replied, "wisdom is proved righteous by its works." And he told those wicked religious leaders that if they didn't want to believe what he said, to believe the works he was performing among them.

"Likewise, John came neither eating nor drinking [living the life of a Nazarene], but people say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of man did come eating and drinking, but people say, ‘Look! A man who is a glutton and is given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works.”-Matthew 11:18-19.

"If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me. But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father."-John 10:37-38.

a reply to: randomuser

Jehovah's Witnesses don't have doctrine. That is not true.

Semantics. Call it a 'belief system' or 'tenet' if it makes you feel better. JW's are extremely rigid in their beliefs, and if you dare to question any of the things that don't make sense you risk being ostracized/shunned by the congregation and your entire family.
JW beliefs have morphed many times through the years, and still are changing today as the leaders receive 'divine inspiration'.

Over the years I've read the majority of Russell's works and I can tell you for a fact he never ever wrote or taught or believed things you wrote about him above, such as he taught that Jesus never had a resurrection. Yes you did write a lie.

You're reading the sanctioned JW version, so how can you be sure he never wrote the things that have so long been attributed to him? Wouldn't you want to do some independent research research in a quest for truth?

Yes you did write a lie.

Did I now? Perhaps you're the one who's lying-to yourself. If your only going to go by the official JW version/interpretation you've emersed yourself in how will you ever know you're not going down a Jim Jones path?

To believe only 1444,000 people-all JW's -are going to be the 'chosen ones' is quite the mental gymnastics.

There is plenty of literature on Charles Russell's writings, including well-researched documentation; I bet you haven't, nor will you research the complete history of the JW religion.

Rather than calling me a liar and then quoting the Watchtower as an ;official' source, how about quoting some independent sources showing how 8 million JW's got it right and 2.38 billion Christians have it all wrong?

a reply to: nugget1

What? JW sanctioned? I had the complete Studies in the Scriptures in my home library back in the States. And between my grandma and my parents in the local Kingdom Hall I had all the publications ever printed by the Watchtower Society. And in my late teens to early twenties, I read through almost all of them. You realize the Watchtower Society is a publishing society. They have all of their works published in print for the public. You can find them in public libraries, in private libraries at home, in used book stores. I am becoming more and more disillusioned with your sincerity and your integrity the more and more we converse. And none of that changes the fact you can simply go to any Kingdom Hall, or talk to any JW and find out what they believe from them. It is not like it is a hidden mystery.

In fact if you look through my threads all of it is right there in the public. Even just going to the JW.ORG you can see what they believe. JWs are probably the most open out of all religions on earth about their beliefs and teachings. And I can tell you what you were quoting from was untrue and lies. Charles Russell never EVER believed Jesus was not resurrected and never taught that. It is an outright bald face lie.

And telling me that I only read the history that is JW sanctioned is a lie as well. I had in my possession at one time or at my disposable all of the writings of the Watchtower Society and search through them as well. How do you expect to find truth if all you can do is lie? And if you didn't know before you certainly know now.

I know prejudice can be hard to overcome, especially when you have believed lies and have been lied to all your life. But humility and honesty can help you overcome it. I am willing to help you if you want. Be like the Jews who were listening to lies being spread about Jesus and the early Christian congregation everywhere. They said:

"But we think it proper to hear from you what your thoughts are, for truly as regards this sect, we know that it is spoken against everywhere."-Acts 28:22.

Objects of Persecution

a reply to: randomuser

And telling me that I only read the history that is JW sanctioned is a lie as well. I had in my possession at one time or at my disposable all of the writings of the Watchtower Society and search through them as well. How do you expect to find truth if all you can do is lie? And if you didn't know before you certainly know now.

Who do you think writes the watchtower?

I'm not sure how anyone can expect to find the truth if the only information they're willing to consider are the writings from their church.

I know prejudice can be hard to overcome, especially when you have believed lies and have been lied to all your life.

Same with close-minded bias from growing up under generational dogma.

Since you've read nearly every Watchtower publication, I guess you failed to notice how their beliefs have kept changing through the years.

Why do JW's get so upset with people who refuse to accept their beliefs?

238 billion people see the 8 million JW's as cult members. If they're truly God's chosen people and the 144,000 best of the best will rule in heaven why does it seem to be such a sore point?

I've often wondered: does proselytizing on social media count as 'good works'?

a reply to: nugget1

You really haven't apologized for the lies. And that is where we stand. You stand on foundations of lies. The only thing I have used is God's word in the Bible which is the truth. There is no doctrine or dogma in truth. Just God's word.

I thought I would see even a little shame from you for posting blatant lies. I thought perhaps there was a little chance you didn't know and would admit it. I know if I wrote blatant lies about someone and it was pointed out I would feel deeply ashamed and apologize, and change my ways so as not to do it again.

a reply to: randomuser

Sure, I'll apologize. I'm sorry you feel the need to lie to yourself.

a reply to: nugget1

You Did It For Me

You deny that Jesus and the father are one. You're completely lost.

Jesus is God. Pray about it, ask the holy spirit to show you. Free yourself.a reply to: randomuser

originally posted by: Joneselius
You deny that Jesus and the father are one. You're completely lost.

Jesus is God. Pray about it, ask the holy spirit to show you. Free yourself.a reply to: randomuser

To the contrary! Jesus and Jehovah are one. And not only that Jesus' servants on earth are one with him and his Father just as Jesus prayed to his God and Father on the night before he died:

“I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one. -John 17:11.

In fact this is evidence of Jehovah's Witnesses having the truth. They are not only one with each other. But they are one with Jesus Christ and Jehovah God.

You Gave Your Only-Begotten Son