Information supports Intelligent Design

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originally posted by: Satanwasframed
a reply to: cooperton

No I believe in human rights unlike the Bible. Stalin and Mao aren't anything compared to the millenia of Christian violence. Not only that they didn't do it in the name of some made up god. All of these arguments have been had over decades. Your religion doesn't hold up and is a literal doctrine of hatred and supremacy. Feel free to be a slave to a book forever though. I choose freedom

Is Belief in God Reasonable?

...

SHOULD RELIGIOUS EVILS JUSTIFY DISBELIEF IN GOD?

Many people do not believe in a Creator because of the well-known abuses and corruptions that blacken the history of many religions. Is that a sound reason for disbelief? No. “The excesses and atrocities of organized religion,” says Roy Abraham Varghese in his preface to Antony Flew’s book There Is a God, “have no bearing whatsoever on the existence of God, just as the threat of nuclear proliferation has no bearing on the question of whether E=mc^2.” * [Energy equals mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light.]

When you say "Christianity" (as in your preceding comment) you actually are referring to Christendom, the religions that claim to represent Christianity, but how could that be true, when of (true/actual) Christians the Bible says:

“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare* [“We do not wage warfare.” Lit., “we are not doing military service.” ...; Lat., non . . . mi·li·ta'mus.] according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God;” (2 Cor 10:3-5)

The religions of Christendom do not have the same official stance on military service. Some churches are actually used as recruiting platforms for the military. Not to mention the individual preachers in their churches who praise or paint military service as some great or noble service to your country (in defence of your country), which then becomes the opinion and attitude of the whole so-called "Christian" community there. And yes, this attitude has led to countless deaths, wars and much violence, past and present. But all this violence cannot be categorized as "Christian violence", since it's very unchristian, and identifies these religions and its leaders as the counterfeit apostles of Christ that Paul talked about in the next chapter (2 Cor 11:13-15).

“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333) “It will be seen presently that the evidence for the existence of a single Christian soldier between 60 and about 165 A.D. is exceedingly slight; . . . up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least, no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism.” (The Early Church and the World, by C. J. Cadoux, 1955, pp. 275, 276) “In the second century, Christianity . . . had affirmed the incompatibility of military service with Christianity.” (A Short History of Rome, by G. Ferrero and C. Barbagallo, 1919, p. 382) “The behavior of the Christians was very different from that of the Romans. . . . Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers.” (Our World Through the Ages, by N. Platt and M. J. Drummond, 1961, p. 125) “The first Christians thought it was wrong to fight, and would not serve in the army even when the Empire needed soldiers.” (The New World’s Foundations in the Old, by R. and W. M. West, 1929, p. 131) “The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.” (Editorial introduction to “Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246) “While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: whereislogic

Ok, but what does that have to do with what I said?

You were talking about a leap of faith, which made me think of that giant leap of blind faith. As I said: "Talk about blind faith."

Even if we were to concede intelligent design, how does that automatically make the giant leap to the OP's god, or any other singular god worshiped on earth?

It doesn't, but since that seemed obvious to me, I didn't feel obliged to respond to that subject before. I will however point out now that there is a trail of evidence that points in the direction of the specific God explained in the Bible. In other words, if you follow the evidence where it leads, it leads to the God of the Bible, and AFAIK* only the Bible's explanation of how these things occurred fits all the evidence. (*: and I've looked into quite a few alternative accounts of these events, or models for the origin of the universe, Earth and most notably, the life on it) I will admit that it's a slighly more complicated puzzle to solve, requiring one to put the evidence from different fields of science together to complete the picture/puzzle, to build an ever stronger and stronger case for 1 specific candidate. It is not as clear-cut as simply admitting 2 well-established (observed many times) facts that inescapably lead to only 1 possible rational conclusion (by induction, or common sense if you will), that machinery and technology is the product of creation (more specifically engineering) and that life is made up (consists) of machinery and technology, leading to the inescapable conclusion that life is the product of creation (engineering).

But I know you're not that interested in a detailed explanation of what that evidence entails, so I don't want to waste too much time getting into that. But a lot of it also has to do with human history, human behaviour and fulfilled predictions of future* events as well as human behaviour (*: at the time these detailed predictions were written, they are now already history). For those who want an idea of what I'm referring to now:



And coming back to my remark about how "the Bible's explanation of how these things occurred fits all the evidence":

Chapter Six: An Ancient Creation Record—Can You Trust It? (Is There a Creator Who Cares About You?)

But someone may want to start with:

Chapter Two: How Did Our Universe Get Here?—The Controversy

originally posted by: Satanwasframed
a reply to: cooperton

Lol they would change the name if more of them knew about mentally challenged people, like yourself, using it to try and prove creation. In their defense I didn't think they thought people would be this stupid. All your doing is talking about a ribosome. It has nothing to do with a creator.

Round and round we go

It was nice of the moderator to leave this demonstration of what I was talking about in my first comment in this thread concerning the effect of propaganda on people and in particular their view of those who have an opposing viewpoint to those using the propaganda techniques that involve playing on pride and the fear of seeming stupid in particular, in order to win people over to their side.

The propagandist makes sure that his message appears to be the right and moral one and that it gives you a sense of importance and belonging if you follow it. You are one of the smart ones, you are not alone, you are comfortable and secure—so they say.

Source: Do Not Be a Victim of Propaganda! (Awake!—2000)

originally posted by: Satanwasframed
a reply to: cooperton
Stalin and Mao aren't anything compared to the millenia of Christian violence.

Yeah they're incomparably higher than all Christian violence:

Mao is estimated at 40-80 million, you'd be a huge fan he hated religion. So did Stalin, coming in around 20-40 million people. Not to mention Christianity opposes violence, and commands to turn the other cheek. Many have acted under the veil of Christianity in order to impose force, but that is starkly against Christ's teachings. Whereas atheism on the other hand touts survival of the fittest, the theory that very much motivated Hitler.

a reply to: whereislogic

You were talking about a leap of faith, which made me think of that giant leap of blind faith. As I said: "Talk about blind faith."

It doesn't, but since that seemed obvious to me, I didn't feel obliged to respond to that subject before.

Fair enough.

I will however point out now that there is a trail of evidence that points in the direction of the specific God explained in the Bible.

Biblical history and archaeology were of great interest to me at one time in my life (still are, but from a different perspective). I spent a great deal of time reading about it. I didn't end up with the same conclusions you have, but that's for another time and another thread.

Intelligent design raises more questions than answers, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

originally posted by: ARM1986
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

In a universe so vast, where almost anything is possible, you might do well to reconsider your position. Add in the fact that there are strong indications of a multiverse, and such dismissive arrogance would seem foolish at best. There are questions that we are very unlikely to answer, but just because we can’t it doesn’t mean there is no answer.

Purposeful Design or Mindless Process? (Awake!—2009)

...

In efforts to explain by natural processes alone the design and fine-tuning evident in the cosmos, still others turn to what has been called the multiverse, or many-universe, theory. According to this hypothesis, perhaps we live in just one of countless universes​—all of which have different conditions, but none of which have any purpose or design. Now according to that line of reasoning and the laws of probability, if you have enough universes, eventually one of them should have the right conditions to support life. However, there actually is no scientific evidence to support the multiverse theory. It is pure speculation.

After stating that he did not subscribe to that hypothesis, Nobel Prize-winning biochemist Christian de Duve said: “In my opinion, life and mind are such extraordinary manifestations of matter that they remain meaningful, however many universes unable to give rise to them exist or are possible. Diluting our universe with trillions of others in no way diminishes the significance of its unique properties, which I see as revealing clues to the ‘Ultimate Reality’ that lies behind them.”

Human Consciousness

The fact that we form theories for the existence of the cosmos is remarkable. In a universe without purpose, such an ability would have to be nothing but the result of a mindless process. Does that seem reasonable to you?

The human brain has been described as “the most marvelous and mysterious object in the whole universe.” No amount of knowledge in the fields of physics and chemistry can in itself produce adequate explanations for the human capacity for abstract thought and our widespread search for purpose in life.

Either the human mind, with its quest for understanding, was put in place by a superior intelligence, or it arose randomly. Which of these two possibilities seems more reasonable to you?

...

"strong indications", only in the eye of the biased beholder who wants to see such strong indications. In reality though, "there actually is no scientific evidence to support the multiverse theory. It is pure speculation."

Just more of the type of stuff Franklin M. Harold was talking about in my quote when I responded to Klassified, when Franklin used the term "wishful speculations".

a reply to: cooperton

Your God killed everyone but a drunk and his family. Unless you don't believe in that of course

There is intelligent design. Because there is intelligent design, billions of years of time and evolution are un necessary. These things are contrary to faith and are a direct afront. That is why the secular world and those who claim themselves wise see religion as something for the un intelligent peasants. Little do they know the irony of the battle of faiths - for both of our worlds views - that of the bible vs the secular world of the God of nothing via distant time and evolution are both entirely based on faith. The only difference is our faith is evident and is the very power of God unto salvation, wherein their faith is masqueraded in a lie as truth - for they don't even realize it's faith, but "science", are told and swallowed a lie so they can create their own God or have no God, both of which tell them, no matter what happens, things will be okay. There will be no judgement. Both of these are entirely wrong and false.

Having no respect for history, even myself in the past, creating instead your their own God, a story of who we are, what's God's plans are, instead of looking back to history as something valuable. If the past is so important and worthless to throw it away, why wouldn't the future be - that is the logic of it, alas has man been blinded by technology and knowledge - thinking themselves limitless unto one day birthing even there own god of AI or turning themselves into one with merging man and machine, on creating immortality, HA, such vain and pointless imaginations, deeply wicked and evil, lacking wisdom to see how unbareable such a reality and eternity would become, if even granted the time to reach it, for as men continue in knowledge, only unto inventing more evil ways to sin and destroy themselves, leadning to more vainity and pride, unto more corruption and control of governments. Salvation and wisdom of God are what make live worth living and possible long term

That you can become a god, through knowledge, which turned into modern day tech, is the oldest lie of satan.

Imagine how red shifted light, and the molecular decay rate of atoms are the god of this new technological age - it is in these things they place their faith in and all their hope to escape the judgement of God's wraith. Neither of these mechanisms are none to be constant throughout time. There is no evidence to prove what happened in the past is what is happening today and will happen in the future. The redshift and decay rates all assume that is the case with zero evidence.

What does such a weak invented god of technology and knowledge promise, or hope? Nothing, but declare the worthlisness of and pointless of life and the nature. There is no right or wrong, so no moral ground work to preserve the sanctifiy of life - so go ahead an kill babies. So too genocides. These are the things such philosophy brings about, behold its fruit. What a weak and heartless, mindless, non entity the God of the secular world serves and created. The further irony is, they don't even know this is actually a form of Satanism, for he is god of this world so this is his religion and worldview he masquerages as truth aka "science". Just notice the vaccine disaster - look to the science. You will know it by its fruit - What has the fruit of science given you - alas the tool itself is turned against you - you place your faith in science and it bites you back - such a lack of justice and righteousness is this god, no?


Just open up the book of God's Word and see for yourself to get to the very heart of the nature of things - seek and you shall find - find out for yourself who you are in the plan of God's redemption and creation unto New Jerusalem and a new Heavens and Earth.

The sure things man claims to know in his science are but vain imaginations in the light of and against prophecy, for all things learned change and are proven false in science. The amount it claims to understand is less than a piece of dust against the scale of an infinite universe of knowledge

Herein is the rub - the futility of knowledge and the lack of logic utilized when confronted with perfection and a lack of knowledge - that only leads unto a higher power - God.

Wisdom is of upmost important - that is spiritual and directly given of God. For what good is knowledge without understanding.

a reply to: TTU77

Is that why we died of disease and lived in darkness for millenia? It's funny because science has done more for humanity than any religion. If we left it to yall we'd be praying for electricity rather than making it

originally posted by: Satanwasframed
a reply to: TTU77

Is that why we died of disease and lived in darkness for millenia? It's funny because science has done more for humanity than any religion. If we left it to yall we'd be praying for electricity rather than making it

Science came about because of Christianity, so did school, so did democracy to some part - certainly the constituion of the United States.

You seem to be blinded by science and technology, so was I, having been fed so many lies constantly, millions of years this, or billion that. All lies and deception.

Science and technology itself is based upon reason and logic, that is entirely the worldview of God. Do you even know what side of the fence you are arguing from? Morality and Reason are all attributed to a design creator. Whereas the big bang and evolution, there is no basis for morality or reason because all things happened by chance for reason, unlike a God who made us in his image with the capacity to reason and love, and it is from his own lays he puts into our hearts is the basis of morality, right or wrong and the evidence we have to explain the reason we have to hope in these truths is PROPHECY - that holy thing found no where else in mankinds history. That is the elephant in the room no secularist or evolutionists dares ponder lest they find themselves coping one way or the other - lest, how do you cope with the reality of prophecy and how thousands of years point to Christ, and thousands of years later, he is the most important and influential person in history, and His Word, still, to this day is the best selling book of all time. You might find it interesting to note, you won't find this book on the best sellers list - ONLY this book is taken out - ASK yourself why??

The more people are entertained with more knowledge and technology, the more spiritually in ruin they are and unhappiness. Spirituallity, Drawing near to God, wisdom and righteous are way, way, way more worthy, precious, and awesome than anything technology or science can ever provide. Nay, you are but fallen into the snare of the devil friend, of the pride of life and hedonism, for he seeks to rob, destroy, and kill all the things of the spirit God has promised you through Christ, that you look at the things of this world or sin as but the puke a dog returns back to eat - not knowing or seeing anything better, and as a blind man not knowing where he is headed in the darkness.

Eternal life, peacy joy, bills and the very rightouesness of God are waiting for all those who call upon the name of the Lord and come to a saving knowledge of Christ. It is these things precisely the pride of life, hedonism, that the devil, being the god of this world, is pulling the wool over your eyes in the form of science and technology, ity's all vanity and idolatry. Instead, through science and tech, no enterain you and give you vain, evil dreams of becoming immortal god without God, which is impossible and evil without His Rightouesness and all sustaining power. Such an existence is bound to turn from bittersweet to increasingly unendurable to a living state of hell and suffering without the grace, mercy, wisdom and love of the one True God and Jesus.
To entertain is to be amused, which is the opposite of muse. This is a spiritual battle of the mind. You either muse on God or are amused unto your destruction. For the mind control the emotions and will of the heart - soul. The mind is the gatekeeper of the soul. Thus, he is a robber, seeking to rob you of your glorious destiny in Christ for God's namesake.

You deserve way better than this, as an image bearer of God, you are meant and welcomed to become holy and sanctified through the spirit of God in Christ - as a child of light, able to enter heaven amidst the holy, beautiful and good heavenly creatures as well. The Lord is calling His creation by name out from the world, making them peculiar, unto a new people that will inherit the earth with eternal immortal glorified bodies. That is the reason for our hope. What is the reason for your hope.

Come into the light, be open, you know where the road of darkness leads. Are you truly happen. Are things truly well? Are you content spiritually where you want nothing from this world but shun it. Is that considered a loss to you? Have you ever imagined anything being of greater value than the world itself and all the physical treasure, knowledge, and riches? How about spiritual treaure, or its fruit? God's ways are not like our ways, or our thoughts not like his. For He grants the wisdom of God unto salvation to even babes and denies the same wisdom to the proud who claim themselves wise in their own vain imaginations.

Friend, I say this in love, that I might stablish in you a spiritual gift of truth. That we may both be exceedingly glad and encouraged in our mutual faith, such is my hope and prayer for all those still abide in God's wraith, for the whole world was cast away and doomed until Christ came to redeem it. It is through Christ, God judiciously pardons the wicked. For he is both love and holiness and both must be accounted for.

Blessing and amen. Please take my word to heart, if possible.

a reply to: TTU77

School started in small-scale in ancient Egypt and the Greeks had large schools. Hell, the library of alexandria was in egypt under greek rule. If you had reason and logic you wouldn't believe in some God or some man made book. There is no truth in the Bible. I've heard all of this before. God's ways aren't anything because he probably doesn't exist. I live happier as an atheist than when I was an ordained minister. Not everything is because of God or Christians. Yall are getting worse with these responses. Hail satan

The Christian church created the bases of the Western system of education. From its beginning the Christian community faced external and internal challenges to its faith, which it met by developing and utilizing intellectual and educational resources.

The above is from britannica.com !

www.britannica.com...

You are happier because no you are free to sin and give in to the desires of the flesh. This is a deceitful illusion for the gate of heaven is straight and narrow and few find it, for it is easier to sin and make up your own god that tells you "all is well" "everything will be okay" no matter what happens, even if I die, it will all be okay.

This is a lie and far, far, far from the truth and you have prophecy as evidence. God died for you. To turn your back on that, after hearing of it, would God be just or unjust to punish you. What more can he do to preserver his soveriengty and your free will, for he seeks those who will worship him in spirit and truth, and do so from there own free will.

I implore you, it terrifies me to no end the holiness and righteousness of God. Even now, he is with you sustaining you. If he withdraw for a moment, darkness and void immidiately.

Fear is the beginning of wisdom unto GOD. If you are so confident, ask Him to increase your fear of Him, from the heart and do it powerfully and see how the very world itself will become as dung comepared to his righteousness, his smile upon you, how the sweet meditations and blissful time spent in prayer will content you beyond measure and unto a more profound peace and rest, a rest and peace that passive all understanding.

Alas, what then does your believe promise you. What is the reason for your hope? Where is your hope? Besides there is no judgement, for you have no evidence as powerful to the contrarty as prophecy is unto the bible and all the good works and glory the bible has in the world today. Who are you to come up against it? Are you right to do so, friend?

You are right to mention the school system, so I clarified my idea, nonetheless the disregarded everything else I said. Open your heart, for that is the evidence of a wise person, wiling to learn new things, open even unto the very wisdom of God. For all who call upon his name, he will in no wise cast out.

But tarry not, for we can not see the end of all things, unlike God. We don't know how much time we have. We cannot take it for granted can come to a decision in the future. Why not take heed to the bible, its warning and its prophecy as evidence its true and be wise and take precaution for your eternal soul - is it not the safest thing to then to accept Jesus's sacrfice?

Peace and blessings.

a reply to: TTU77

Lol I literally live better today than I did. You make a lot of assumptions. Just because you are unhappy without your Dom God doesn't mean other people are. You needing to believe insome higher power to be happy is your baggage, not mine. Please stop assuming so much. Because I have some assumptions too. Like Christians are literally gay for Jesus, mentally unstable, and irrational. You literally need th ethreat of hell to be a good person. I do it because I want to and believe it's the right thing to do. It's pretty sad how brainwashed you are. The fear they've instilled in you. The fact your forced to worship an imaginry homicidal maniac.

a reply to: TTU77

There's more than one way to have a school, genius.

originally posted by: Satanwasframed
a reply to: TTU77

School started in small-scale in ancient Egypt and the Greeks had large schools. Hell, the library of alexandria was in egypt under greek rule. If you had reason and logic you wouldn't believe in some God or some man made book. There is no truth in the Bible. I've heard all of this before. God's ways aren't anything because he probably doesn't exist. I live happier as an atheist than when I was an ordained minister. Not everything is because of God or Christians. Yall are getting worse with these responses. Hail satan

You are a seadoo on the ocean of life.

a reply to: peck420

This is my favorite comment thus far. But I have to say I'm wondering if this is a compliment or an insult.

I've never been on a jet ski and I'm terrified of the ocean. My only real fear lol. My life's been more of a river though. Just flowing down stream until my inevitable demise. It'd be nice for something after death, sure, but I doubt it and I'm at peace with that. I make every day a good day because we have such little time on this beautiful planet.

originally posted by: Satanwasframed
a reply to: TTU77

Lol I literally live better today than I did. You make a lot of assumptions. Just because you are unhappy without your Dom God doesn't mean other people are. You needing to believe insome higher power to be happy is your baggage, not mine. Please stop assuming so much. Because I have some assumptions too. Like Christians are literally gay for Jesus, mentally unstable, and irrational. You literally need th ethreat of hell to be a good person. I do it because I want to and believe it's the right thing to do. It's pretty sad how brainwashed you are. The fear they've instilled in you. The fact your forced to worship an imaginry homicidal maniac.

You don't get it do you. The threat of hell is the beginning of Wisdom, that leads to salvation unto good works, not for fear, but out of love and gratitude.

You are blantantly false on all of your claims, over, and over, and over again. You lack wisdom, truly, a scary state - remember, much that has been given, much is required. As an ordained minister how many times have you read the bible or prayed, or fellowshipped, truly?

It's tragic to be honest, I'm quite fearful for you and have sadness in me for you.

Why do people reject God? It says in the bible, for they love darkness? Is there some sin you can't let go of? Are you honest and brave enough to admit it? You say you are moral, but do you still stop yourself from sinning - because that is called spiritual fruit.

How can you boast of morality, claim to be good, God says there is none good, thus you lack wisdom, now, if you say you sin and enjoy it, admit that you lack spiritual fruit as well. Perhaps there is some idolatry that has torn you away - too much youtube, ats?

You claim to be happy, but how can one be with no wisdom, sense of spirituality, and downright rude - for a happy person is rude not, for their is much, much bitterness in you - therefor you are a liar if you say your are happy if this is true.

Back to point - you lack basic fundamental knowledge of the basics of Christianity or the gospel.

Do you claim to be saved?

God bless you friend.

a reply to: TTU77

Another backwards sermon spinning BS. I'm good