Evolution is a product of encoded information not anything natural

a reply to: datguy

I'm done. You're trolling. You said:

then what are mutations in the genetic code?

Mutations aren't in the genetic code. The genetic code has been the same for billions of years. If you can't accept that you're wrong on something so basic what's the point?

a reply to: neoholographic

Are you seriously incapable of holding a conversation?
you JUST linked to examples of exactly mutations in the genetic code while denying they exist
what is sickle cell anemia?
what is alzheimers?
what is hemophelia?
they are ALL mutations in the genetic code and only a few of them to boot
and ones that your "sophisticated machinery" fails to error correct
is this why you keep calling me a troll, because im not wrong and your just detracting from the actual conversation to demonize me for asking questions?

a reply to: datguy

You said:

they are ALL mutations in the genetic code

Show me the changes to the genetic code.



If a sequence has GTT which equals the amino acid valine and a mutation occurs and now the sequence is GGT which equals the amino acid Glycine, the machinery couldn't repair the error if the genetic code changed.

Let me say that again:

If a sequence has GTT which equals the amino acid valine and a mutation occurs and now the sequence is GGT which equals the amino acid glycine, the machinery couldn't repair the error if the genetic code changed.

The fact that you can't admit you're wrong when you say:

Not only HAS the code changed

This supports exactly what I said in the OP. I said:

So what's naturally evolving? Species just propigate the code through reproduction. We all carry the same code that has coded for the same amino acids for billions of years. This code can be expressed differently. If you have 100 websites all coded in HTML, then the 100 websites would all contain HTML code but they all can look different because the way the codes are expressed.

WE ALL CARRY THE SAME CODE THAT HAS CODED FOR THE SAME AMINO ACIDS FOR BILLIONS OF YEARS.

Just admit you're wrong. You're starting to look silly because you know you're wrong and if you admit it all of your questions are answered. My whole point depends on the genetic code being the same code for billions of years. You can't do error detection and correction if the genetic code changes.

a reply to: neoholographic

i have shown examples of that change already in a previous post but sure here are more examples

DNA Is Constantly Changing through the Process of Mutation

DNA is a dynamic and adaptable molecule. As such, the nucleotide sequences found within it are subject to change as the result of a phenomenon called mutation.

One specific example, as i mentioned earlier, is sickle cell anemia :

Sickle Cell Disease—Genetics

Sickle cell disease (SCD) is amonogenetic disorder due to a single base-pair point mutation in the β-globin gene resulting in the substitution of the amino acid valine for glutamic acid in the β-globin chain.

Sickle cell anemia

Sickle cell anemia results from the single amino acid substitution of valine for glutamic acid in the beta-chain owing to a nucleotide defect that causes the production of abnormal beta-chains in hemoglobin S

Let me repeat that for you...

Sickle cell anemia results from the single amino acid substitution of valine for glutamic acid in the beta-chain owing to a nucleotide defect that causes the production of abnormal beta-chains in hemoglobin S

hope you don't mind if I take this scientific information over your word...

Yes we do all carry that same code, but it does change and mutate which results in conditions like sickle cell anemia, cancer, down syndrome, and others. and this is know at the nucleotide level of singular base pairs.

While some mutations take place in non reproductive cells and can cause serious cancers it makes me wonder why some science refers to cancer as hereditary, if they are indeed hereditary then this would show that your error correction code has some faults.
Now this is not to predicate that DNA or cells cannot repair themselves but how can examples of genotoxic materials be accounted for when compared with this error correction code, when outside forces are introduced does this code react the same to "natural mutation"

Then we have to ask about the concept that these mutations are in fact permanent, they may not be hereditary but this error correction code does not change them once they take place and this IS at the nucleotide level which you have repeatedly denied
Mutation-Definition

A mutation is a permanent, heritable change in the nucleotide sequence or the process by which such a change occurs in a gene or in a chromosome.

There are two major types of mutations: small-scale and large-scale. Small-scale mutations are genetic mutations, often in the form of substitutions, deletions, and insertions of one or more nucleotides. Mutations occurring in certain areas of chromosomes are large-scale mutations.

who is looking silly now?

originally posted by: datguy
a reply to: whereislogic

Wow, you got really butt hurt and then assumed I had no idea what I talking about. As if there was more evidence of god than evolution, oh wait...

Anywhoo...here some interesting information on cymatics that maybe you could understand before assaulting, based on the use of certain terminology.

I didn't get butt hurt and I wasn't assaulting you. I was genuinely trying to point out what would "help in these type of discussions", as I put it before. I wasn't implying you had no idea what you were talking about. Besides, everyone in this thread can do with a bit more background information about the error-correcting systems in the cell, the facts of the matter.

a reply to: whereislogic

I apologize, I may have jumped the gun on assuming your motives.
Regardless of my retort, Your post was very informative and I thank you for your time and input.

a reply to: datguy

Are you serious or are you just being obtuse?

You said:

Sickle cell anemia results from the single amino acid substitution of valine for glutamic acid in the beta-chain owing to a nucleotide defect that causes the production of abnormal beta-chains in hemoglobin S

THIS ISN'T A CHANGE IN THE GENETIC CODE!

This is the genetic code.



GTT coded for valine and GAA coded for Glutamic acid before and after the mutation. The genetic code didn't change and hasn't changed for billions of years. You're one of those guys that can't admit that you're wrong on a message board LOL! WHY?

You can't have error derection and correction if the genetic code changes and you can't have evolution without encoding/decoding and error correction.

I have to think you're a troll that doesn't want to admit you're wrong.

a reply to: datguy

Also, it's one thing to be aware of the error-correcting systems in the cell, it's another to see the level of coordination and organization of the processes and machinery involved in them. First having a look at the facts of the matter, and not any interpretation yet.

You may have noticed that some of the articles you link in this thread, including some of the ones you linked in your response to me, already add an evolutionary interpretation or argumentation to the facts they present, i.e. they present them in that light, or in support of evolutionary teachings.

I think what happened here is that you took some issues with me adding "(rather than so-called evolutionary biology)" to my suggestion to "try to catch up on a little factual biology" (regarding the error-correcting systems in the cell). But that is what I meant with that.

a reply to: neoholographic

1) i did not say that, i quoted that from the linked article
2) said linked article states a "nucleotide defect", please explain what that is if not a mutation or "change"
3) all of my information is coming from online papers and articles, just like the ones you are linking to in all your posts so its hard to admit that I am wrong when its not my information contradicting your comments
4) that is NOT the genetic code, that is an example of the nucleotide bases that create the genetic code once they are paired to create nucleic acids.

Genomes. 2nd edition. Chapter 14 Mutation, Repair and Recombination

A mutation (Section 14.1) is a change in the nucleotide sequence of a short region of a genome (Figure 14.1A). Many mutations are point mutations that replace one nucleotide with another; others involve insertion or deletion of one or a few nucleotides. Mutations result either from errors in DNA replication or from the damaging effects of mutagens, such as chemicals and radiation, which react with DNA and change the structures of individual nucleotides.

I am not wrong

a reply to: datguy

Yoiu have a serious problem my guy. You said:

4) that is NOT the genetic code, that is an example of the nucleotide bases that create the genetic code once they are paired to create nucleic acids.

What??? You do know if anyone types Genetic Code in a search engine, they will see this:



To deny the genetic code because you can't admit that you're wrong is a level of trolldom rarely seen. Here's more:

The genetic code is a set of instructions that direct the translation of DNA into 20 amino acids, the basic units of proteins in living cells. The genetic code is made up of codons, which are three-letter chains of nucleotides. Each codon codes for one specific amino acid.

In 1961, Francis Crick and colleagues introduced the idea of the codon. However, it was Marshall Nirenberg and co-workers who deciphered the genetic code. They showed that four nucleotide bases – A (adenine), U (uracil), G (guanine) and C (cytosine) ─ form codons of different base combinations that code for all 20 amino acids during protein synthesis
link

It also talks about redundancy:

This coding for one amino acid by more than one codon is referred to as the redundancy of the genetic code. For example, the amino acid lysine is coded for by both the AAG and AAA triplets. Importantly, there is no overlapping in the genetic code, so one nucleotide can only be part of one codon, not two codons that are next to each other.
link

It also talks about the start and stop codons you can see in the genetic code:

Translation begins with a START codon. AUG is the most common start codon, which in eukaryotes, codes for methionine and in prokaryotes, codes for formyl methionine.

STOP codons signal the end of the polypeptide chain during protein synthesis. Also called nonsense or termination codons the STOP codons are UAG, UGA, and UAA and are given the names amber, opal and ochre, respectively. STOP codons trigger the ribosome to release the new polypeptide chain, since no tRNA anticodons complement these stop codons.
link

You have to be joking now! I will leave you with this:





Like I said, the Genetic Code has coded for the same 20 amino acids for billions of years!

a reply to: datguy

Maybe you 2 should stop talking past eachother and pay more attention to what the other is saying. It's clear, and was already clear a page ago, that neoholographic is referring to something else than what you are talking about as changing due to mutation (the nucleotide sequence of genomes) when he says "the genetic code didn't change and hasn't changed for billions of years." Look at the picture he keeps sharing. That's what he's talking about when he's using the term "the genetic code".

He's not talking about changes in the nucleotide sequence of genomes. Then you argue:

4) that is NOT the genetic code, that is an example of the nucleotide bases that create the genetic code once they are paired to create nucleic acids.

If you don't agree with his terminology, why not point that out at the start, instead of bringing up changes to the nucleotide sequence of genomes to argue that he's wrong about what he is talking about that hasn't changed?

By the way, he is using the correct terminology, but it's 'curious' to see how long it took for you to point out you don't agree with that usage of the term "the genetic code", i.e., that that (what is shown in the picture) is the genetic code.

Why not leave it as creationist cults believes in magic and the rest of the world believes in nature? Why continually create these threads? What satisfaction or goals do you achieve?

Creation cults like yours believe in the words of whichever ancient scrolls created them. Scientific researchers - who dedicate their lives and careers to finding facts and furthering our understanding of the world - believe in the natural processes of evolution and species development. Unless you think these hundreds of thousands of people are hiding the truth? Or maybe you think they are dumber than you? I mean, they spend decades learning and refining their fields and you've outwitted them by spending 5 minutes on the internet. The fools!

Oh yes, I forgot. This is a conspiracy forum. And the creation topic is firmly rooted in the mystic section, where it belongs.

a reply to: neoholographic

yes that's exactly what i have said, and the information you added only acts a redundancy to my statement.
Not sure why you cant see that the table you show, of individual nucleotides, are bits and pieces of the structure, not the structure itself.
They are like bricks in the wall that help make the genetic code whole

If you take only use a single nucleotide you cannot create anything.

a reply to: whereislogic

I tried that already
and no, the table he refers to is a simplistic list of individual nucleotides.
It would be the same if I showed you a brick and told you it was bridge, it is not accurate.

should we go back to this post?
www.abovetopsecret.com...
where I pointed out the disconnect in the terminology and attempted to continue the discussion which was ignored and I was again called a troll.

Or what about the several posts prior to that where I attempted to connect with the OP by indicating that there was misunderstanding between us, to which I was continuously called a troll.

I made attempts and gave the OP every chance to hold a civil discussion about his topic despite the obvious faults in his understanding,
now I will not allow him to mislead people based on his poor terminology and understanding

A brick is not a bridge

To add to the active discussion, if only to help out, one guy is genuinely talking about the Genetic Code. It's a list of all the combinations of base pairs to make proteins. It's like a list of ingredients in a kitchen.

The other guy is taking about a genetic sequence, which is a string of proteins that make a part or whole organism. This is like banquet table - where all sorts of treats are possible using the fixed ingredients in the kitchen.

Unfortunately, neither of the guys knows what they are talking about and so are unable to correct each other.

Welcome to the internet!

a reply to: datguy

double post

a reply to: datguy

Sadly, you just can't admit that you're wrong so you just make stuff up. You said:

Not sure why you cant see that the table you show, of individual nucleotides, are bits and pieces of the structure, not the structure itself.
They are like bricks in the wall that help make the genetic code whole

This is just a flat out lie and quite sad that you're so worried about saying you're wrong on a message board that you will just lie. Individual nucleotides A,T,C and G make up the genetic code, they're not bricks of a wall LOL! What in the world are you talking about?

A, T, C and G make up 3 letter codons that code for 20 amino acids and start and stop codons and this is the genetic code that has been the same for billions of years.

You said there's mutations in the genetic code and they're not. You were wrong and now you're just making things up because you can't say you were wrong.

Show one paper, scientist, geneticist, lay person that says this isn't the complete genetic code and says anything about bricks and single nucleotides!

a reply to: TerraLiga

You said:

Why not leave it as creationist cults believes in magic and the rest of the world believes in nature? Why continually create these threads? What satisfaction or goals do you achieve?

This is basically saying I can't refute what you said so please stop posting threads I can't refute on ATS a website that has message boards where people post on different topics! Imagine posting not about the topic of the thread but to complain that you're posting on a message board!

Back to the thread.

Tell me, when has there been mutations to the genetic code that codes for 20 amino acids and has stop and start codons?

a reply to: neoholographic

most of posts include this evidence but you continue to ignore it and deflect from the reality that you are spreading misinformation.

But alas, here is more evidence for you to ignore

YOU SAID: "Tell me, when has there been mutations to the genetic code that codes for 20 amino acids and has stop and start codons?"
This occurs anytime there is a POINT MUTATION

A point mutation occurs in a genome when a single base pair is added, deleted or changed.
very rare point mutations in your somatic cells, which are the cells that won't be sperm or eggs, ultimately could lead to symptomatic disease.

Notice the author of the article uses the term "changed" that isn't something I added

Point Mutation
Point Mutation

I would also like to add, again, that your "error correction code" continuously fails to correct many of these errors which lead to many genetic disorders and conditions

Now go ahead, post the same question I've answered several times, then show the same table of nucleotides, mislabel them and then call me a troll.
Unfortunately I wont be able to respond until later tomorrow or early monday, I hope you have a great weekend

It's always fun to see actual science bludgeon its way into and over fantasy perceptions.
The gullible remain such. Woe be upon the modern world.

Be more "awake" so that we can laugh at you more.