There's more to the Fentanyl crisis than meets the eye (or is reported in the MSM)

a reply to: GArnold

Interesting that you bring up 12 step programs. The most amazing thing, other than saving millions of lives around the world since the 30s, is that it's free and works as well or better than the medical profession does.

A news Article claimed it was a Street Gang. Street Gangs aren't known for being smart. But they are known for being sick and sadistic.

This showed up after 9/11. A supply of opiates could have been started since a lot of opiates come from Afghanistan. So, this could still be part of the War on Terrorism.

And the Authorities looked back into the Tylenol Murders back in the 80's, which is why we have all of this safety packaging in the medicines now.

For someone to have access to the exact dosage of Fentanyl; means:

1.) Someone at a Pharmaceutical Company was originally involved
or
2.) There was a break-in at a Pharmaceutical Company.

This is almost like Corporate Espionage.

originally posted by: CoyoteAngels
a reply to: GArnold

Interesting that you bring up 12 step programs. The most amazing thing, other than saving millions of lives around the world since the 30s, is that it's free and works as well or better than the medical profession does.

Patently untrue. The success rate for Aa or any 12 strep program is 10%. I knew someone would be "hurt" by any 12 Step criticism. There are better ways than 12 steps.

"Peer reviewed studies peg the success rate of AA somewhere between five and 10 percent,” writes Dodes. “About one of every 15 people who enter these programs is able to become and stay sober.”

This contrasts with AA’s self-reported figures: A 2007 internal survey found that 33 percent of members said they had been sober for more than a decade. Twelve percent claimed sobriety for five to 10 years, 24 percent were sober for one to five years, and 31 percent were sober for under a year. Of course, those don’t take into account the large number of alcoholics who never make it through their first year of meetings, subsequently never completing the 12 steps (the definition of success, by AA’s standards)."


By going to treatment and following all the suggestions that can improve to 14-16% success rate. Cold turkey is 2%.

If you wish to make the argument it helped millions then by the very definition it hasn't helped billions


www.theatlantic.com...

Wanted to share this Forgotten Languages post, which I haven't been able to stop thinking about since reading:

7-15-23 Weaponization of Fentanyl

forgottenlanguages-full.forgottenlanguages.org...

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I'm a little confused here. The way I understood it, the fentanyl is produced in China and exported to Mexico, where it's cut in with other drugs to produce black market versions of vicodin, oxycontin, heroin, etc. to lessen the production cost and increase potency. I don't think anyone's buying fentanyl to use as strictly fentanyl, are they? They think they're buying prescription pills illegally but not aware that they're made with fentanyl. As for the lethality, most of the time it doesn't kill the user but sometimes it does. It's like playing Russian roulette but with more chambers. I would guess something like one out of every thousand users dies from it. Is this correct?

a reply to: GArnold

I am a recovering co-dependent with a number of alcoholics in my life, both in recovery and not. Alanon saved my sanity. THat is a 12 step program to address the needs of parents, spouses and even friends that are effected by a relationship with an alcoholic or addict.

Do you have an alternative suggestion for people that cope with addiction as a family member, or loved one?

I did not find the Atlantic coverage of any use. They looked at AA,, not NA, not Alanon. They did not mention the recovery rate of other treatment approaches.

I stand by my statement that 12 step programs have saved millions of lives and quality of life and their families.

And you really can't beat the price. Medical treatments cost thousands upon thousands of dollars. This wasn''t even mentioned in the Atlantic piece. One would think something as expensive as in-patient drug or alcohol rehab would have better results!

Like one of my alcoholic relatives said after his first of many rehab stays. He said it was a 10k introduction to AA.
At that time, that is what it cost. More than 35 years ago. He only went to meetings in the hospital. As soon as he was out, maybe one or two meetings, then no more, then soon, drinking again. As long as he went to the meetings he stayed sober.

I quess it comes down to how badly someone wants it.

> E.) Even if the primary source for fentanyl really IS China, China doesn't do themselves any favors by killing their customers either.

Yes they do. Their stated goal is the destruction of the US by any means necessary. This was publicly said, it's not a secret.

a reply to: GArnold

> Patently untrue. The success rate for Aa or any 12 strep program is 10%.

I was the person who made statistical reports for a non-profit, and one of the things we did was counseling for drug addicts. After getting off their substance of choice, the rate at which they went back on drugs was about 90%. This matches the 10% success rate above.

originally posted by: bulrush
a reply to: GArnold

> Patently untrue. The success rate for Aa or any 12 strep program is 10%.

I was the person who made statistical reports for a non-profit, and one of the things we did was counseling for drug addicts. After getting off their substance of choice, the rate at which they went back on drugs was about 90%. This matches the 10% success rate above.

Ye, again I worked in treatment for a long time. Director of case management in California. I wish I had an answer. Am I bashing AA? Not at all. It is a part of the solution. The reason the Atlantic article discussed AA was if all sprrung from the ideaS. When I see people succeed.
There are usually multiple steps.

1. Surrender
2. Idea of not going back to same environment
3. Encourage balance in life.
4. Finding something your passionate about
5. Educating and speaking fro the family.
6. Going to support meetings.

originally posted by: GArnold

originally posted by: bulrush
a reply to: GArnold

> Patently untrue. The success rate for Aa or any 12 strep program is 10%.

I was the person who made statistical reports for a non-profit, and one of the things we did was counseling for drug addicts. After getting off their substance of choice, the rate at which they went back on drugs was about 90%. This matches the 10% success rate above.

Ye, again I worked in treatment for a long time. Director of case management in California. I wish I had an answer. Am I bashing AA? Not at all. It is a part of the solution. The reason the Atlantic article discussed AA was if all sprrung from the ideaS. When I see people succeed.
There are usually multiple steps.

1. Surrender
2. Idea of not going back to same environment
3. Encourage balance in life.
4. Finding something your passionate about
5. Educating and speaking fro the family.
6. Going to support meetings.

The main point I am making is thhat there is no economic advantage for recovery places to have people recover. 90% of people walking in will either be ba cl or relapse within a year. The pressure to continue people in treatment under the companies umbrella is intense. Over 10 billion is made on recovery this year. In 4 years that number doubles. There is a lot of money at stake. Most rehabs I have seen are not good. In California our success rate where I worked wax 30-40% which is 3x the national average. I ran the outreach dept and we called twice a week both clients and families ( if the had a release ) . But we tried to encompass all the things I mentioned above.

originally posted by: GArnold

originally posted by: GArnold

originally posted by: bulrush
a reply to: GArnold

> Patently untrue. The success rate for Aa or any 12 strep program is 10%.

I was the person who made statistical reports for a non-profit, and one of the things we did was counseling for drug addicts. After getting off their substance of choice, the rate at which they went back on drugs was about 90%. This matches the 10% success rate above.

Ye, again I worked in treatment for a long time. Director of case management in California. I wish I had an answer. Am I bashing AA? Not at all. It is a part of the solution. The reason the Atlantic article discussed AA was if all sprrung from the ideaS. When I see people succeed.
There are usually multiple steps.

1. Surrender
2. Idea of not going back to same environment
3. Encourage balance in life.
4. Finding something your passionate about
5. Educating and speaking fro the family.
6. Going to support meetings.

The main point I am making is thhat there is no economic advantage for recovery places to have people recover. 90% of people walking in will either be ba cl or relapse within a year. The pressure to continue people in treatment under the companies umbrella is intense. Over 10 billion is made on recovery this year. In 4 years that number doubles. There is a lot of money at stake. Most rehabs I have seen are not good. In California our success rate where I worked wax 30-40% which is 3x the national average. I ran the outreach dept and we called twice a week both clients and families ( if the had a release ) . But we tried to encompass all the things I mentioned above.

By success the definition we used was clean and sober for a year aftter residential. We tracked people for 3 years.

My overall point is that a new approach is needed. Maybe reward people in some way for proven years (s) of clean and sober. We need to change the way money is flowing into treatment. We need to have facilities really concentrate on what’s best for the client instead of what’s best for the Facility.

We need to provide hope and light at the end of the tunnel. Most people walking in the door know the stats and arrive defeated.


Before we post with Sterotypes . Most addicts/alcoholics I have met are great people. Most are highly intelligent. Depression and isolation are real things. What you are seeing on the street is a mental health crisis of unparalleled magnitude. A lot of addiction is people honestly trying to medicate themselves because they have no access to mental health resources.

a reply to: Flatwoods

Precisely, that was exactly the point of the OP. The party line is...dealers are cutting other drugs with fentanyl to increase profits. And I disagree with this party line, hence the point of the OP was/is...dealers wouldn't do this unless they wanted to kill their customers...which is bad for (future) business. Therefore, it makes no sense, and something else must be going on.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk
For the ones not killed outright this can be summarized as the slow numbing of the population by bombardment and the rest of us by osmosis.
Most individuals are not able to rationalize the fact that Alfentanil is your legit anesthetic (in IV form) and at an initial dosage of a mere 8-20mcg (based on ass size) can produce induction of analgesia(fully under) followed by .5-1 mcg to keep you there while a Ortho saws out half of your hip. Not trying to hold a math class but at 1000mcg to 1mg (1mg being the usual start point of any oral hcl) the amount to produce a potential fatal episode without assisted or controlled ventilation and a whole bunch of benzos/nitrous/hexane is insanely small. It is such a small amount that to accurately weigh it for dosing requires equipment. Lots of very expensive equipment if your serious about not cooking people. Any use outside of the hands of an anesthesiologist is beyond lunacy as it was designed to take you to the edge of death and be able to pull you back with most of your chit intact. In fact I know many/most anesthesiologist(s) that refuse to take delivery of alfent unless it is dissolved in their carrier of choice with a established dosage ratio ie. Saline, saline w/5% dextrose, alkaline positive bolus etc. It's that powerful! The only way to accurately dose Alfentanil is IV. The Only Way. It is not a temperature stable molecule once it is north of 250f so the cats smoking it are in for some crackle lung, heat changes it to another compound and it is not a good one.
Tranq users I'm sorry to say are mostly beyond recovery once the lesions go volcanic as the body starts to consume itself at which point the reasoning center of their gray matter looks like a dirty sink sponge on a contrast MRI.
If you like your street level pills and zelinsky dust my advice is buy a bunch of fentanyl test strips or liquid invert tests.
Usually just being in close proximity to it is more than enough to trigger the resulting + . And yes, many richards have been put in the dirt from undetectable yet fatal levels in the air during routine handling.
Check your material before consumption and even then..one just has to ingest/insulfate/smoke? that one granule the size of a mere grain of salt and in less than 3 minutes you are taking a dirt nap... It ain't worth it Chaps!

The history of opium would be revealing in how long (centuries) this has been going on. Wars were fought over protecting the enormous profits to be made in the opium trade. It has been the single largest source of illicit income for over 200 years under management of the British crown. If depopulation is the true goal then fentanyl makes sense. It's just the latest iteration of a deadly street drug. Create unemployment and homelessness and you're guaranteed a steady stream of new customers.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I have to tend to agree with you. A drug dealer wants you alive, high as a kite but alive so you'll come back for more. I unfortunately believe that we are nothing but mere cattle for the governments. Once we're too many, a culling needs to take place.

Another thought though, is this is a great way for China to wage war against the U.S., flood the borders with ultra cheap ultra fatal drugs.

Either way, it's no good.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

That's not a party line, that's the truth. Without going into too much detail, I have a severe dependency on a med that was prescribed to me for 25 years, 1-2mg 3-5x daily. I'm not saying that was responsible on the doctor's part in the slightest but I didn't know any better than to follow the instructed dosage until it was much too late. Because of all the "prescription reform" going on, most everyone is afraid to prescribe it. So they stopped. Just... Stopped.

Anyone with pharmaceutical knowledge will know what I'm referencing but it's virtually impossible to overdose on this drug yet the withdrawal is among the few forms of withdrawal that can very easily be lethal. To help "ease me away from it" they wrote me a new script for... Antihistamines.

My choices were rehab (not possible for a multitude of reasons), dying (I'd... You know... Rather not yet), or finding alternative sources and substitutes. One substitute is a Russian surgical sedative (not a controlled substance in most states) that used to be cheaper than dirt but is not $500+ for a 2 week supply.

Another is a non-controlled analogue that's nearly impossible to find and also unaffordable at this point.

The last is easily found if you know where to look. The problem is that NO ONE in their right mind is going to buy it anymore, most of it is fake, and, you guessed it... Laced with fentanyl to make it seem more potent. That's fine for recreational users but people that have a medical condition aren't fond of taking a med to help them through the day then being higher than giraffe balls. As a matter of fact someone just told me within the past few days that a celebrities son had died from taking a counterfeit version of this med that had turned out to be fentanyl.

So I can say with one million percent certainty, that's not a party line or scare tactic. It's happening, I can send you some sources on where it's coming from and who is doing it (fentanyl can be synthesized EXTREMELY easily in a VERY short period of time in a Chinese or Mexican shack or garage, if you know what you're doing it can make meth production look like rocket science).

Eta: before anyone makes suggestions regarding how I handle my problem, I was able to taper down to a point where I'm able to use nootropics available from GNC to regulate the reason for the meds in the first place. Only because of one single Dr that was willing to help me using a method developed by a Dr Ashton.