JUST IN: 20 armed IRS agents raid Great Falls gun store

originally posted by: nugget1
. I also hope the loose canons don't take the bait and react with protests; remember, it's 'domestic terrorism' if conservatives gather in numbers to peacefully protest.

If you're allowing you're political opposition to dictate when you can protest doesn't that mean they won?

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: UberL33t

Hmmm.

For what purpose does the IRS need 4473s?

Not the ATF, FBI, DEA...but the IRS?

Perhaps the store was involved in illegal sales or other financial (tax) fraud.

If the amount of money that the store made, and claimed on tax, was inconsistent with the number of legitimate sales, then there would definitely be something dodgy going on.

a reply to: chr0naut

Unless they know beyond a shadow of the doubt that every single person that bought something there was a criminal and involved in a crime they just screwed up if the judge is remotely impartial.

originally posted by: UberL33t
Took NO FINANCIAL RECORDS, accounting or tax statements just every 4473 BUYER’S INFORMATION form.

Rep. Rosendale to Newsmax: IRS Targets Conservatives Who Want to Own Guns

Montana GOP Rep. Matt Rosendale told Newsmax on Friday that the Internal Revenue Service's raid and subsequent closure of a store licensed to sell firearms and accessories earlier this week is the agency's latest attempt "to create a database" on conservatives who want to own a gun.

"This is stormtrooper-type activity, and we're not used to seeing it in our country whatsoever," Rosendale said while appearing on "The Chris Salcedo Show." "This is the kind of activity that demonstrates why we were trying to, in the House of Representatives, defund those additional 87,000 IRS agents."

I'm at a loss for words...

All I can come up with is...

So it begins...

4473 21(C) reads: “you intend to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition in furtherance of any felony or other offense punishable by imprisonment for a term of more than one year, a Federal crime of terrorism, or a drug trafficking offense?”

Most likely:

IRS seized these in relation to some organized crime operation that is being pursued on tax fraud charges and utilized this location in furtherance of their overall criminal enterprise.

Seizing one gun stores records of purchases isn’t remotely comparable to any attempt to seize firearms or build a registry.

There are one half billion or more legally owned firearms in the USA.

The IRS could raid gun stores for decades and never make even a dent in creating a registry of legally owned guns, let alone any entity of the USG being able to functionally and logistically seize half a billion firearms.

I’m certain authoritarian minded DC hacks would love to seize guns.

I’m equally certain that it is functionally and logistically impossible to attempt to do so in CONUS based solely on the math.

originally posted by: dandandat2

originally posted by: nugget1
. I also hope the loose canons don't take the bait and react with protests; remember, it's 'domestic terrorism' if conservatives gather in numbers to peacefully protest.

If you're allowing you're political opposition to dictate when you can protest doesn't that mean they won?

Have you forgotten J6 and all the people jailed without charges-some who weren't even there?

Have you heard what happened to the protest by Truckers in Canada?

Do you think this administration will give conservatives a pass? Hell, they won't even allow free speech if it goes against their narrative/delusions.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: rnaa

Money laundering scheme...sounds like something that would get investigated, on a federal level from a bureaucracy.

You mean a Federal bureaucracy like the IRS or the ATF? I concur.

Taxes paid come from the POS at a local retailer.

Not quite right. Taxes are COMPUTED by the retailer's POS system, the retailer still has to submit paperwork and payment.

Unless, of course, the sales are off the books. So if they have evidence that more guns have passed through the store than the store can account for? Or they have been fencing stolen weapons? Or illegally importing from Canada?

originally posted by: nugget1

originally posted by: dandandat2

originally posted by: nugget1
. I also hope the loose canons don't take the bait and react with protests; remember, it's 'domestic terrorism' if conservatives gather in numbers to peacefully protest.

If you're allowing you're political opposition to dictate when you can protest doesn't that mean they won?

Have you forgotten J6 and all the people jailed without charges-some who weren't even there?

No one has been 'jailed' without charges (of course some were held for a few hours before arraignment)

Have you heard what happened to the protest by Truckers in Canada?

No, did they get charged for the insurrection too?

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: chr0naut

Unless they know beyond a shadow of the doubt that every single person that bought something there was a criminal and involved in a crime they just screwed up if the judge is remotely impartial.

Nope. That's not how this works.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: chr0naut

Unless they know beyond a shadow of the doubt that every single person that bought something there was a criminal and involved in a crime they just screwed up if the judge is remotely impartial.

No, the assumption is not that the people who filled out the forms have done something illegal, it is that the management of the shop has done something illegal, and that the evidence of the forms will be presented in court to show this.

Like, for instance, if the shop owner/management has declared less than they have actually made, in their tax submissions, or possibly, that the shop has been turning over far more profit than could have been possible from their sales?

Additionally, aren't the forms supposed to be submitted to government authorities (like the ATF)? Why were 4,473 of the filled-out forms all still sitting there in the shop? Do you think that the shop 'owns' the filled out regulatory forms?

I am fairly sure that the IRS have the legal authority to seize documents to establish that tax fraud has occurred, and that the shop can claim no ownership of the ATF forms seized.

You also seemed to have missed that it was reported that the IRS were working with both the ATF, and local police, on this raid. It sounds like the authorities had very specific suspicions, and recovered very specific evidence to support their case.

a reply to: chr0naut

a reply to: chr0naut

When purchasing a firearm is you fill out the background check information electronically then it gets sent off. (the stuff the ATF and FBI are not supposed to keep but have been)

The store then makes a hard copy and keeps it on file in case it gets used in a crime, as an example.

The atf has to do random checks of gun stores to make sure the information is kept, but as I understand it there has to be a legal reason for them to remove the information from the store.

But since congress even called out the ATF for keeping information on citizens they are not supposed to, Ill side with the store till evidence shows otherwise.

Lastly the 4473 is a firearms transaction record.

a reply to: chr0naut

Criminals don’t fill out 4473s and if they tried they would be discovered as a prohibited person and it which case there would be no sale

originally posted by: Brotherman
a reply to: chr0naut

Criminals don’t fill out 4473s and if they tried they would be discovered as a prohibited person and it which case there would be no sale

Precisely.

Despite the erroneous inference of the article, it is not the people who have lawfully transacted business with the shop who are under tax audit.