Bakhmut officially falls. Medvedev responds to Elon Musk.

a reply to: knoxie

I had being accused of being a Russian bot over the Ukrainian conflict which is untrue.

It would appear Bakhmut did fall. Which means phase two is to begin.

Bakhmut will be encircled by the Ukrainan forces waiting for the so called 'Spring Offensive'. I expect the delay was for a reason. First, the Wagner forces had to be depleted, along with much of the support they drained over the months.

The next phase is to start that delayed offensive and focus it on encircling and capturing Wagner forces and whatever remaining Russian forces are around Bakhmut.

We should see this in the next few days.

a reply to: Mahogany

the Wagner forces had to be depleted

Ukrainian forces had depleted much of their special forces.

If they had a chance agaisnt Russia they should have started the offensive agaisnt Rus last year.

originally posted by: knoxie
Wow, if ATS isn’t a Russian propaganda site I don’t know what is. It’s been obvious for awhile but y’all have proved it.

Not sure you could call ats pro Russian propaganda. I think the ats response is related to questioning Biden and the democrats motivation in the situation, funding the war and what’s being hidden

a reply to: vNex92

You don't realize this yet, but Bakhmut was a trap... a trap that took months to set.

Prigozhin was so hell bent on getting Bakhmut at any cost, probably because his life depended on it, he didn't think far enough to realize what comes after that.

He and his forces will either get deleted or become prisoners of war. They have no way out.

a reply to: Mahogany

Bakhmut was a meat grinder.

Ukraine AFU had lost a of troops trained under western countries.


I dont think Ukraine has the time to recapture those loses and no offense but zelensky did a bad move.

a reply to: Mahogany

The biggest mistake for the Zelensky govt to do was to attack the oldest Orthodox church in Ukraine.

originally posted by: Mahogany
It would appear Bakhmut did fall. Which means phase two is to begin.

Bakhmut will be encircled by the Ukrainan forces waiting for the so called 'Spring Offensive'. I expect the delay was for a reason. First, the Wagner forces had to be depleted, along with much of the support they drained over the months.

The next phase is to start that delayed offensive and focus it on encircling and capturing Wagner forces and whatever remaining Russian forces are around Bakhmut.

We should see this in the next few days.

The counter-offensive was a ploy to buy time to try to drag the West and NATO further into this mess .

originally posted by: GAOTU789
If you want to see what Russia has finally "won" after almost 9 months, go to about 8:30 of this video...

www.youtube.com...

Also, if you want really unbiased analysis of the war, that dude in the video is someone you should be watching.

I wonder if Russia understands what a Pyrrhic victory really is. But hey, they added a few more km^2 to their total, while Ukraine has taken back about double the size of Bakhmut around it's flanks.

Glorious victory for Mother Russia though, all hail the mighty bear lol.

5.21.2023

I've never seen such major conflict between multiple U.S. media outlets about a military occurrence inside Ukraine, as I've seen today. Here's an example...

ABC: "Zelenskyy says Bakhmut is destroyed."

ABC Source: abcnews.go.com...


CNBC: "Zelenskyy says Bakhmut is fine".

CNBC Source: www.cnbc.com...

There's as many saying Bakhmut has been taken by the Russians, as say there's no truth to the rumor that Russians have taken the city of Bakhmut.

Spam

originally posted by: GAOTU789
If you want to see what Russia has finally "won" after almost 9 months, go to about 8:30 of this video...

www.youtube.com...

Also, if you want really unbiased analysis of the war, that dude in the video is someone you should be watching.

I wonder if Russia understands what a Pyrrhic victory really is. But hey, they added a few more km^2 to their total, while Ukraine has taken back about double the size of Bakhmut around it's flanks.

Glorious victory for Mother Russia though, all hail the mighty bear lol.

The destruction of the area is not really relevant, a wasteland makes for the ideal DMZ once the war ends and the new border lines have been drawn ... It makes for a nice separation that is easy to patrol and monitor.

Also your pyrrhic victory comment is somewhat misrepresentative of the the information in the video you linked to ... Look at ~10m and read:

The issue Ukraine has is that while having a superior force ratios's they have dispersed thier forces on a wide front in hope of both thining out the Russian reserves and obscuring where the different axis's of attack will come from.

The clear downside is that Ukrainian forces have been dispersed across the entire front. This will result in each axis being unable to take and hold much ground. Additionally, as each axis is generally not supporting, another failure on one axis cannot be quickly fixed as the other reserves required to create, the necessary operational spear point, which could reach any strategically important terrain.

Furthermore, even if Ukrainians are able to advance, Russian artillery while degraded is still operational and will most likely stop any advance.

Ukrainian airpower is also insufficient to maintain CAS with COP keating, requiring a total of 144 modern airframes flying constant sorties for 48 hours to keep TIC from being overrun.
Ukraine doesn't even have anything close to this level of airpower, and as such, it is my view that Western support for this, without reform would constitute exterm criminal negligence that unnecessarily endangers lives.

That said, the Russian force is exhausted, and their morale is low, which I hope will help Ukraine win. However, hope is not a strategy.

[sic - all typos left in from original] + bold added by me to highlight partisan reporting

I'm not sure I could agree with your characterisation of this reporter as anything close to neutral, all of his sourcing appears to be of either of Ukrainian or Allied Western origin. And is cheerleading specific reports that have been rebutted by the Russian state (in some cases with corroboration from the UN / IAEA).

IMO it is at best, representative of a low key acknowledgement, of just how poorly things have been going for Ukraine since the effective fall of Donbass and collapse of Kherson.

If only the UK and US would stop preventing peace talks. Lives could be saved! Those that cheer on the killing of the people on either side of the battle lines should hang their head in shame!

a reply to: AllAnIllusion

You do know that Russia withdrew from Kherson in November?

whatever, as long as the USA stops sending money for this nonsense

originally posted by: Salamandy
whatever, as long as the USA stops sending money for this nonsense

That seems to be the only consistent factual information coming from the US.

Another $375 million of taxpayer money into the pit.

a reply to: AllAnIllusion

Well that email is from someone on the ground in Ukraine, fighting for Ukraine, what would you expect him to say? The Russians are exhausted so I hope that leads to their victory? And which reports are you referencing exactly? Russian rebuttal of anything is like, hearing something break, walking into the room, seeing your kid standing over the broken vase and them saying "nope, wasn't me, it was the cat!!" when you don't own a cat, but of course your mileage may vary.

What would you consider an unbiased source?

IMO it is at best, representative of a low key acknowledgement, of just how poorly things have been going for Ukraine since the effective fall of Donbass and collapse of Kherson.

Do tell, I must have missed these events.

a reply to: JinMI

it is insane. but believe them when they preach about words on a computer screen leading to real life violence

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: GAOTU789
If you want to see what Russia has finally "won" after almost 9 months, go to about 8:30 of this video...

www.youtube.com...

Also, if you want really unbiased analysis of the war, that dude in the video is someone you should be watching.

I wonder if Russia understands what a Pyrrhic victory really is. But hey, they added a few more km^2 to their total, while Ukraine has taken back about double the size of Bakhmut around it's flanks.

Glorious victory for Mother Russia though, all hail the mighty bear lol.

5.21.2023

I've never seen such major conflict between multiple U.S. media outlets about a military occurrence inside Ukraine, as I've seen today. Here's an example...

ABC: "Zelenskyy says Bakhmut is destroyed."

ABC Source: abcnews.go.com...


CNBC: "Zelenskyy says Bakhmut is fine".

CNBC Source: www.cnbc.com...

There's as many saying Bakhmut has been taken by the Russians, as say there's no truth to the rumor that Russians have taken the city of Bakhmut.

Was about to post this....

It's ambiguous as hell ain't CWM here are the NBC headlines... note the keyword "hoping" Regardless below in red seem to be the pertinent points. This does highlight the problems with propaganda and perception from both sides.

there isn't one good source on the war it seems you need multiple sources and confirmations and even then the actual truth may still be elusive. I can rationalize a fairly intelligent positive assessment for both sides but it doesn't make it true to what's happening on the ground

Ukraine signals the battle for Bakhmut is far from over after Russia claims victory
Moscow declared a triumphant victory in the eastern city over the weekend, but Kyiv suggested that it was hoping to encircle Russian forces.

www.nbcnews.com...

May 22, 2023, 8:27 AM EDT
By Yuliya Talmazan
Russia may have effectively captured the symbolic prize of Bakhmut, but in many ways the battle for the city might only just be beginning.

Moscow declared a triumphant victory in Bakhmut over the weekend, its first in nearly a year, with state media extolling its “liberation” and President Vladimir Putin promising “state rewards” to those who “distinguished” themselves in the war’s longest and bloodiest battle.

However, Putin’s troops — exhausted and depleted by the sort of fighting not seen in Europe since World War II — may struggle to push deeper into the eastern Donbas region while Kyiv’s military will seek to take advantage of recent gains by trying to encircle them, according to Ukrainian officials and Western military analysts.

'Mission accomplished'?
Russian state media headlines on Monday declared Bakhmut was already being de-mined after the country’s defense ministry and mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin said Saturday that forces led by Wagner fighters had taken full control of the battered city.

Prigozhin posted images of his fighters raising flags over partially-destroyed buildings in the city, which has been left in ruins by months of conflict that has seen both sides suffer huge losses.

A news anchor on Russia’s Channel One called the city’s capture “an event of historic proportions” and “a mission accomplished,” at the top of a newscast Sunday afternoon, as Putin congratulated Wagner units and Russia’s regular army, despite weeks of bitter feuding between Prigozhin and Russia’s top military brass.

But the celebrations were dismissed in Kyiv, where officials insisted that the city was not completely under Russian control and that the battle was far from over.

“Despite the fact that we now control a small part of Bakhmut, the importance of its defense does not lose its relevance,” the commander of ground forces for the Ukrainian Armed Forces, Oleksandr Syrskyi, said Sunday. “We continue to advance on the flanks in the suburbs of Bakhmut and are actually approaching the capture of the city in a tactical encirclement,” he added.

Serhii Cherevaty, spokesman for the Eastern Group of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, also said late Sunday that Ukraine’s forces maintain control of “several buildings and fortifications in the southwestern part of the city.”

NBC News could not verify the claims from either side about the situation on the ground.

The conflicting messages about who controls the city may indicate that there are a number of things that are happening simultaneously and the battle for the city may not be over but rather entering a new phase, said Neil Melvin, the director of international security studies at the Royal United Services Institute, or RUSI, a London-based think tank.

In strategic terms, the Russians have “effective control” of Bakhmut in the sense that recent advances in the city itself mean that they have occupied almost all of it, said Christopher Tuck, an expert in conflict and security at King’s College London. But Ukrainian forces still have a presence in a very small portion of the west of the city, meaning that the Russians do not have “total control” over it, according to Tuck.

“The differences between these two positions might seem small, but they do have political significance because the Russians are keen to portray Bakhmut as a victory, whilst Ukraine is keen to demonstrate that the fighting is still ongoing and that the Russians therefore have not yet won.”

Ukraine will want Moscow to feel that Bakhmut remains vulnerable, so the Russian military is forced to reinforce its troops there and take resources away from other areas of the lengthy front-line, potentially opening up opportunities elsewhere for Ukraine’s counteroffensive.In strategic terms, the Russians have “effective control” of Bakhmut in the sense that recent advances in the city itself mean that they have occupied almost all of it, said Christopher Tuck, an expert in conflict and security at King’s College London. But Ukrainian forces still have a presence in a very small portion of the west of the city, meaning that the Russians do not have “total control” over it, according to Tuck.

“The differences between these two positions might seem small, but they do have political significance because the Russians are keen to portray Bakhmut as a victory, whilst Ukraine is keen to demonstrate that the fighting is still ongoing and that the Russians therefore have not yet won.”

Ukraine will want Moscow to feel that Bakhmut remains vulnerable, so the Russian military is forced to reinforce its troops there and take resources away from other areas of the lengthy front-line, potentially opening up opportunities elsewhere for Ukraine’s counteroffensive.

a reply to: GAOTU789

What would you consider an unbiased source?

Simple answer to that is I don't think there are any! ... They all seem to have a perspective.

I like the frank reporting from US army Colonel Douglas Macgregor as a decorated senior US military strategist and Trump appointed advisor on defence (Wikipedia page) but it's not without baggage/bias.

Similarly, Scott Ritter a former US Marine corps Intelligence Officer and UN Special Commission Weapons Inspector (Wikipedia page) with whom there are connotations that many may seize upon to discredit his reporting.

For rebuttals just look at the Kinzhal Missles - Ukraine says they shot them down, Russia say they actually struck and took out that very same battery of Patriot launchers plus the RADAR control ... It even got a partial confirmation by CNN ... and many other reports of significant infrastructure targets being hit in that attack.

Russia’s Defense Ministry said Wednesday that five launchers and the radar of a Patriot missile defense system supplied by the US to Ukraine were destroyed in a strike on May 16.

"According to reliably confirmed data, on May 16, as a result of a strike by the Kinzhal hypersonic missile system in the city of Kyiv, a multifunctional radar station as well as five launchers of the Patriot anti-aircraft missile system manufactured by the United States were hit and completely destroyed," the ministry said in a statement.

Separately, US cable news network CNN claimed that the system was not destroyed but only damaged and that its most important part, the radar, remains operational. M ain Article
CNN reporting

As for your cat argument ... Just because you don't own a cat and didn't see one doesn't mean that one wasn't there ...

I'm oft to be heard making the statement "It's like being a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there" when trying to tease the real complete details out from people that only want to give out half the information.

I'm not sure whether your responses are there just to reinforce your perspective of some kind of Ukrainian 'success' but cheerleading for war is not a pretty look.

Down with war! Stop ALL the killing! Demand PEACE NOW!!!

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Yes I get that ... They achieved their objective and then withdrew from territory they didn't plan on holding.

There's been a lot of suggestions that Ukrainian attacks don't care if they hit civilian targets ... This was certainly the case for the 8 years plus of attacks on Luhansk and Donetsk and was widely reported upon with near daily civilian casualties.

I'm sure you'll have a long list of 'but Russia did this' events that you'd want to spew in response ... don't bother nearly nothing can be honestly verified at this point, and the past cannot be undone.

All I know is that people are dying whether they are soldiers that signed up, young and old alike that have been forced to fight through conscription and innocent civilian victims.

If this is what you or others here cheer for then maybe seek help.

a reply to: AllAnIllusion

No, I won't bother.

What would be the point?

You seem to have already dismissed anything I might say before you have even heard it.