Russian bomber shot down by Patriot system

Russian bomber shot down by Patriot system

Just came across this. The Ukranian military has allegedly shot down a Russian fighter/bomber using a Patriot air defense system. I say allegedly because the comment was made by an unnamed Pentagon and US Congress.

This possibly happened May 13. There's a tweet here that has video. twitter.com...

It's theorized that it was a Patriot missile because range at which the aircraft were destroyed were beyond the range of most of their air defense systems.

originally posted by: grey580
Russian bomber shot down by Patriot system

Just came across this. The Ukranian military has allegedly shot down a Russian fighter/bomber using a Patriot air defense system. I say allegedly because the comment was made by an unnamed Pentagon and US Congress.

This possibly happened May 13. There's a tweet here that has video. twitter.com...

It's theorized that it was a Patriot missile because range at which the aircraft were destroyed were beyond the range of most of their air defense systems.

Thanks for the link, just saw where Biden wants to train Ukrainians to fly F-16s, not sure why they wouldn't have been training them already, even if it was just small groups in anticipation of sending F-16s

Id imagine once that happens, it could be a turning point or it could escalate quickly

a reply to: grey580

There were two Russian fighters (I believe it was an Su-34 and Su-35), and two helicopters that crashed in fairly short order the other day. The initial claim was possible sabotage. Now Ukraine is claiming that at least one of them was Patriot.

a reply to: putnam6

The problem is getting them F-16s. The US doesn't have any available to give, and only a few of our allies that fly them have any available to give. Norway is the only one that's completely withdrawn their aircraft, and 32 are going to Romania, with at least some of the remaining 32 spoken for by Draken. So it's been a matter of where they're going to come from.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: grey580

There were two Russian fighters (I believe it was an Su-34 and Su-35), and two helicopters that crashed in fairly short order the other day. The initial claim was possible sabotage. Now Ukraine is claiming that at least one of them was Patriot.

Is it normal to use a PMB to shoot down helicopters and planes, I know it has the capability obviously, but aren't there other less expensive means to deal with the slower and less agile targets?

That said if it's reaching out and downing Russian aircraft over Russia, it can't be the PMB thats in Kyiv. can it?

a reply to: putnam6

Patriot has the range to hit them, where others don't. It was designed to shoot down both aircraft and missiles. NASAMS and IRIS-T both have a range of between 15-20 miles, where the Patriot has a range, against aircraft, of up to 100 miles depending on missile variant. Patriot is mobile, so if it was used to shoot them down, one of the two was probably moved closer to the border in the air defense mission, at least temporarily, and one left near Kyiv for the missile defense role. There's no evidence beyond Ukraine saying they did it, that Patriot was used though.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Are there any in storage out in desert at Davis Monthan which can be refurbed and used ?

Do any of the aircraft there have any time left on airframes so can be refurbed?

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: putnam6

The problem is getting them F-16s. The US doesn't have any available to give, and only a few of our allies that fly them have any available to give. Norway is the only one that's completely withdrawn their aircraft, and 32 are going to Romania, with at least some of the remaining 32 spoken for by Draken. So it's been a matter of where they're going to come from.

Hmmm could be why Zelensky's in the Middle East Jordan, Oman, and the UAE seems to have newish models.

even though Forbes is saying its unlikely

www.forbes.com... 0334dcd

After months of repeatedly insisting that it urgently needs F-16 fighter jets to strengthen its air defense, there are strong indications Ukraine may finally acquire that fighter aircraft. The U.S. has agreed to support a European-led initiative to train Ukrainian pilots to fly the fighter. Ukraine could, therefore, soon acquire used F-16s currently in service with European air forces. However, Europe is not the region with the most F-16s outside the United States.

President Joe Biden informed world leaders at the G7 summit in Japan of his decision to back the European training plan. His decision marks a major turnaround from his administration's previous stances that Ukraine was not ready to receive the aircraft or that training would take too long to impact the war's outcome. Any transfer of F-16s serving in European air forces to a third country requires U.S. authorization, which they will now likely receive for any Ukraine transfer.

Belgium, Denmark, and Norway are also reportedly willing to supply Ukraine with F-16s. These three countries, along with the Netherlands, have an estimated 125 of these fighters between them. But aside from the United States itself, the region with the largest number of F-16s is not Europe. It is the Middle East.

The U.S. probably wouldn't object to Israel supplying Ukraine with F-16s. However, given this Croatian precedent, it may first condition its approval on Israel downgrading those jets by stripping them of such sensitive components.

Still, with Israel's unwillingness to date to transfer any air defenses Ukraine has directly requested, it may also prove unwilling to give Kyiv even older F-16s anytime soon. Last year, Israel even turned down a U.S. request to transfer outdated American-built MIM-23 Hawk surface-to-air missiles it has in storage.

a reply to: firerescue

Quite a few can be refurbished, but you're looking at upwards of 18 months depending on how long they've been stored. The second B-52 that came back to service was in the desert 7 years, and took almost two to get fully updated and returned to service. The first took a little over a year.

a reply to: grey580

dont believe to much of the Ukrainian media.

a reply to: putnam6

Zelensky is in the Arab Summit giving lectures to the Summit how Russia had committed war crimes in Syria which is quite comical.

If it wasn't Russia's intervention in Syria, Syria would have being another failed state as Libya.

a reply to: putnam6

Jordan just signed a contract to get 16 Block 70 F-16s and support equipment, so they could potentially be a source. There are a few other operators in the region that could potentially provide a few aircraft, to add up to the 32 talked about, if they add them to a European donation. The Netherlands has some that they could give, now that they're transitioning to the F-35.

a reply to: Zaphod58

What are your thoughts on wether the F-16 is suitable for us in Ukraine?

BusinessInsider

This article claims that the F-16 is out matched by the Russian are defenses.

a reply to: grey580

Source: Revealed in a comment to CNN by unnamed representatives of the Pentagon

Sounds legit...

Like US weapons systemsin general that seem overhyped, the effect a few old f16's might have is likely to be overhyped. As despite all of this modern weaponry, the US military has been losing to some rather meagre opposition for a very long time now.

It's unlikely the f16 has really been proven in conditions where they face modern well established air defences and a modern air force. As the US usually picks on weak countries that have no real air defense or air force to speak of (yet still manage to lose when they send in ground troops).

If they are stationed in the Ukraine it's unlikely many will ever get to take off and those that do probably won't last long. If they are stationed elsewhere there is a real risk of escalation, as Russia would be well within their rights to attack them at these bases with missiles.

The only thing that will come of this is that countries will be able to offload their old stock and increase the risk of escalation, while making no real difference for the Ukraine.

originally posted by: Idelb06
a reply to: Zaphod58

What are your thoughts on wether the F-16 is suitable for us in Ukraine?

BusinessInsider

This article claims that the F-16 is out matched by the Russian are defenses.

I know youre not talking to me but theres a lot to be said for actually having air superiority in an area before you bring in fighters

a reply to: Quintilian

I keep hearing how Russia will be able to smack them out of the sky, and yet a year plus on the Ukrainian Air Force is still flying quite successful missions. The F-16 is going to get hurt at first, simply because the pilots won't have the advantage of time for things to become second nature to them, so they won't be able to get the best out of them, like they can their current aircraft. They will have a big advantage however, in that they won't have to jury rig weapons systems, and will be able to get more effective use out of them.

rumors say it wasn't patriot or ghost of patriots lol

supposedly a ukraine special force group got deep in russian territory, shot those down with stingers/man pads. dont shoot the messenger

fog of war is dense, it could be anything. dc warhawk has a financial interest to claim it was patriot, raytheon stocks could climb after such claims.

a reply to: trombleforth

Yeah, no. The Patriot system was barely damaged and never lost operational capability.

When DU weapons are damaged they don’t release a radioactive cloud. Even if they did, the winds are blowing the wrong way for it to go to Poland, or to the northwest. It would be heading east.