Not good news for Russia

a reply to: musicismagic

No, America is not fighting Russia. The US and European countries are sending weapons to Ukraine for Ukrainians to use. The US and some of these European countries are obviously supplying actionable intelligence as well. However, no US or NATO troops are fighting in Ukraine. If they were, don't you think Russia would've killed and collected, or captured a few by now, and crowed to the high heavens about it?

Sure, there are probably some special op and support troops from NATO, but they're not involved in combat, so they're not fighting Russia.

I'm no big fan of Sleepy Joe, but he and his administration have done a good job of supporting Ukraine and getting other countries to do so as well without escalating the conflict, i.e. getting the US or NATO directly involved.

a reply to: MrInquisitive

All the worlds a stage, you're watching a clown show and nothing is as it seems.

originally posted by: ADSE255
a reply to: MrInquisitive

All the worlds a stage, you're watching a clown show and nothing is as it seems.

And you know this is the case exactly how? I don't entirely disagree with your sentiment in general, but I was responding to someone claiming that the US is at war with Russia, literally fighting the Russian military in Ukraine, which I contend is horse excrement. I've yet to see any evidence of this, and if it were the case, like I already wrote, we would have heard all about it by now from Russia. And it seems to me that the west is helping to thwart Russian aggression without getting involved directly. Have I got that wrong somehow?

originally posted by: MrInquisitive
a reply to: musicismagic

No, America is not fighting Russia. The US and European countries are sending weapons to Ukraine for Ukrainians to use. The US and some of these European countries are obviously supplying actionable intelligence as well. However, no US or NATO troops are fighting in Ukraine. [...]

Depends a bit on how you define 'fighting'.
There are training groups on the ground. There are military advisor groups on the ground. All intelligence (satellite, remote sensing etc.) is fed to Ukraine, real-time tactics developed and shared. Potential sabotage targets within Russia. Tons more stuff is going on. Massive amounts of weapons and even more money being poured in. Maximum political pressure and blackmailing on all countries to isolate Russia. Blowing up the Nordstream pipeline.


Would that count as fighting? In my eyes, that is a definite yes.

a reply to: ADSE255

They "Liberated" Poland from the Polish in 1939. Does this sound familiar?

Why did Russia invade Poland 1939?

The “reason” given was that Russia had to come to the aid of its “blood brothers,” the Ukrainians and Byelorussians, who were trapped in territory that had been illegally annexed by Poland. Now Poland was squeezed from West and East—trapped between two behemoths.

originally posted by: Torlin

originally posted by: MrInquisitive
a reply to: musicismagic

No, America is not fighting Russia. The US and European countries are sending weapons to Ukraine for Ukrainians to use. The US and some of these European countries are obviously supplying actionable intelligence as well. However, no US or NATO troops are fighting in Ukraine. [...]

Depends a bit on how you define 'fighting'.
There are training groups on the ground. There are military advisor groups on the ground. All intelligence (satellite, remote sensing etc.) is fed to Ukraine, real-time tactics developed and shared. Potential sabotage targets within Russia. Tons more stuff is going on. Massive amounts of weapons and even more money being poured in. Maximum political pressure and blackmailing on all countries to isolate Russia. Blowing up the Nordstream pipeline.


Would that count as fighting? In my eyes, that is a definite yes.

I use the actual definition of fighting: "taking part in a violent struggle involving the exchange of physical blows or the use of weapons." As such, what we are doing is not fighting there. Words have specific means. Misusing them intentionally is being disingenuous.

Somewhere in this thread I think I also had a post where I acknowledged that the US, UK and some other countries no doubt have special forces and other support personnel in Ukraine training Ukrainians. That is not fighting. Unless US or NATO forces are actually involved in kinetic exchanges with Russian troops, they aren't fighting them. And that is a major distinction that matters as far as escalation is concerned. China and Russia supported Viet Nam, but the US never claimed that they were fighting us -- although some Russian airmen may have indeed done so.

As for the Nord Stream pipeline, that is still a matter of debate. Claiming that it is an established fact based on a report based on one anonymous source does not cut it. I'm still agnostic on the matter, and doubt anyone who claims they know for sure one way or the other.

People criticizing what the US is doing to support Ukraine seem to like to be fast and loose with their words and claims. It doesn't make for a well-reasoned argument.

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: musicismagic

If America was fighting Russia they would be trashed in days with a shock and awe campaign that would make their heads spin.

Yeah, like those sandal wearing, goat herding peasants in Afghanistan. Showed them a thing or two...

The US is good at "shock and awe" bullying of helpless little countries with no air defence. Then when they send the troops in, they lose.

Nukes are not the reason they are using the Ukrainians to fight Russia.

originally posted by: Quintilian

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: musicismagic

If America was fighting Russia they would be trashed in days with a shock and awe campaign that would make their heads spin.

Yeah, like those sandal wearing, goat herding peasants in Afghanistan. Showed them a thing or two...

The US is good at "shock and awe" bullying of helpless little countries with no air defence. Then when they send the troops in, they lose.

Nukes are not the reason they are using the Ukrainians to fight Russia.

Iraq had air defense and the US thrashed their conventional army twice. It was the later asymmetrical counter-insurgency fight that the US and NATO had problems with, both in Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia had similar problems in Chechnya and Afghanistan. However, Russia is also having a terrible time of it in a conventional war against Ukraine, which has been outgunned from the beginning. Why Ukraine have been able to hold its own is equipment provided from the west, including the US, and intelligence from the US, UK and other NATO members. You're trying to suggest that the US, with its ground, naval and air forces and all of its intelligence capabilities wouldn't be able to do a number on Russia if hostilities between the two countries broke out? Never mind other NATO countries' support. That's just plain risible.

The US is not using the Ukrainians to fight Russia. It is supporting Ukraine in its defense against the Russian invasion, and it doesn't want to get directly involved both for political reasons and because of the possibility of escalating the war to a nuclear one. Sure, it is happy to support this proxy war against Russia to wear down Russia's fighting capabilities, but It didn't start the war, the Russians did, and it was against Ukraine.