Florida passes bill allowing death penalty for child sexual abusers

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: IAMTAT

Decades of research has failed to find any effective deterrent or permanent cure for pedophilia.
...
Killing the offender might make the parents feel better, but the child has still been abused.

Killing the pedophile is actually the one sure-fire cure (they will never ever do it again).

That said,I am against the State having the power to kill people, so again prefer just declaring them an outlaw, so anyone who wants to can kill them with impunity.

I'm in total agreement with the sentiments of this post. I bolded the one small issue I take with it, trivial on my part probably. The State is just the tool of execution as, I believe, the death penalty can only be enacted by a unanimous vote of jurors. It can be recommended and argued for by prosecutors but it ultimately comes from the jurors.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Killing the pedophile is actually the one sure-fire cure (they will never ever do it again).

You're right about that. I hate that it's true, but if there's another cure, we don't know it.

That said, I am against the State having the power to kill people...

Exactly this!

...so again prefer just declaring them an outlaw, so anyone who wants to can kill them with impunity.

Even I cannot deny that sometimes -- just some times -- the law of the jungle is the most effective and efficient. Not pretty, but it gets the job done. In this case, protecting children and stopping a predator.

I want to think we can do better though. Forced sterilization? A permanent scarlet letter?

And, while this won't be popular among many, holding parents to greater accountability? In my experience, too often parents make it possible, and ignore crucial clues and evidence.

I once helped my sister "kidnap" a girl who she found was being sexually abused when my sister was giving her a bath. (I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations is up by now!) She was only 4 years old. My sister saw swelling and bruising, and asked her about it. It was an old man in their apartment complex that was "babysitting" her. The girl's mother should have seen it and known. The girl's grandmother should have seen it and known. They claimed they never knew. The telling part was that they were more furious with US than with the child's abuser. My sister made it VERY CLEAR that she was watching and if it ever happened again, THEY wouldn't know what hit 'em.

I should add that my sister did contact the police, I took the girl to my kids' pediatrician for an examination and gather evidence, the pervert was successfully prosecuted and convicted and incarcerated. And we kept the girl. Refused to give her back until they could provide better for her. Which did happen -- thank God!

a reply to: Sookiechacha

Good, maybe we can lure the U.N. to Florida...

But seriously, this should be a no brainer. A pedophile cannot be cured and will only continue to harm the innocent until they no longer are able to.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Most children are abused by family members or close friends of the family. Often, people are shocked, and often in denial, to learn that a beloved friend or family member is accused or guilty of such crimes.

A 4-year-old can't really speak to their own abuse, it takes someone to observe, advocate and intervene for them. Even a 17-year-old cheerleader will have a difficult time convincing people that a beloved football player raped her.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Why do suppose animals, including humans, evolved to experience empathy? What is it for, if not survival of the species?

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: tanstaafl

Most children are abused by family members or close friends of the family. Often, people are shocked, and often in denial, to learn that a beloved friend or family member is accused or guilty of such crimes.

A 4-year-old can't really speak to their own abuse, it takes someone to observe, advocate and intervene for them. Even a 17-year-old cheerleader will have a difficult time convincing people that a beloved football player raped her.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Why do suppose animals, including humans, evolved to experience empathy? What is it for, if not survival of the species?

Empathy is a wonderful thing. Having so much it becomes dangerous to little children is a good place to draw that line. We can allow adults to do adult activities, but we should never teach certain things like sexual perversions to young people under 18.

originally posted by: Moon68
a reply to: tanstaafl
I'm in total agreement with the sentiments of this post. I bolded the one small issue I take with it, trivial on my part probably. The State is just the tool of execution as, I believe, the death penalty can only be enacted by a unanimous vote of jurors. It can be recommended and argued for by prosecutors but it ultimately comes from the jurors.

I understand your point, and don't necessarily disagree, but it is really only relevant when the judicial system is functioning honestly and fairly - and it hasn't done that in a long, long time, if it ever did.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: tanstaafl
I once helped my sister "kidnap" a girl who she found was being sexually abused when my sister was giving her a bath. (I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations is up by now!) She was only 4 years old. My sister saw swelling and bruising, and asked her about it. It was an old man in their apartment complex that was "babysitting" her. The girl's mother should have seen it and known. The girl's grandmother should have seen it and known. They claimed they never knew. The telling part was that they were more furious with US than with the child's abuser. My sister made it VERY CLEAR that she was watching and if it ever happened again, THEY wouldn't know what hit 'em.

I should add that my sister did contact the police, I took the girl to my kids' pediatrician for an examination and gather evidence, the pervert was successfully prosecuted and convicted and incarcerated. And we kept the girl. Refused to give her back until they could provide better for her. Which did happen -- thank God!

That is some story...

How in the hell did that happen? You kidnapped a girl from her rightful mother, and you were allowed to keep her???

How does that happen?

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: Moon68
a reply to: tanstaafl
I'm in total agreement with the sentiments of this post. I bolded the one small issue I take with it, trivial on my part probably. The State is just the tool of execution as, I believe, the death penalty can only be enacted by a unanimous vote of jurors. It can be recommended and argued for by prosecutors but it ultimately comes from the jurors.

I understand your point, and don't necessarily disagree, but it is really only relevant when the judicial system is functioning honestly and fairly - and it hasn't done that in a long, long time, if it ever did.

Point taken, however, it's the system we have and I like to believe that, more times than not, it works as intended. In my view, it's probably one of, if not the, better systems in the world. Infallible? Absolutely not! But, better than mob justice...usually

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: tanstaafl

Most children are abused by family members or close friends of the family. Often, people are shocked, and often in denial, to learn that a beloved friend or family member is accused or guilty of such crimes.

A 4-year-old can't really speak to their own abuse, it takes someone to observe, advocate and intervene for them. Even a 17-year-old cheerleader will have a difficult time convincing people that a beloved football player raped her.

Irrelevant to my point. You used 'beloved' in the present tense. Stockholm syndrome?

a reply to: tanstaafl

Why do suppose animals, including humans, evolved to experience empathy? What is it for, if not survival of the species?

Empathy is not altruism.

a reply to: tanstaafl

I suppose it depends ones perspective concerning altruism. Personally, I see it as slow suicide.

Auguste Comte viewed it as an absolute, all or nothing approach. Even the Bible's "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" didn't go far enough for him. Any act done for any reason other than for the advancement of another's well-being were morally unjustified and should be compelled by ostracization or force if necessary, completely in conflict with liberty and benevolence. It left no room for self-realization, self-ownership or the power to choose.

From the view of Objectivism, Ayn Rand's take regarding altruism, quote:

“The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value."

If altruism is a duty then someone will exploit it and it no longer becomes charitable or generous. The one who gives will be enslaved to those that would take all in chasing some "noble" goal.

originally posted by: Moon68
a reply to: tanstaafl

I suppose it depends ones perspective concerning altruism. Personally, I see it as slow suicide.

The attempt to pursue it, yes, no doubt.

But I still maintain that it simply isn't within the purview of the human species. Everything we do - everything - is selfish in nature, whether it is for love (sacrificing my life to save or try to save a loved one is done out of love not some dumbass sense of altruism), just as the philanthropist donating millions to charity does it for the accolades, or the secret santa philanthropist does it because they enjoy helping others, or whatever the reason.

But of course this is just my opinion...

a reply to: tanstaafl

That is some story...

How in the hell did that happen? You kidnapped a girl from her rightful mother, and you were allowed to keep her???

How does that happen?

Well, this was almost 40 years ago, laws were different, and the "kidnap" part was refusing to give her back, not taking her. The child was spending the weekend with my sister with the mother's consent. My sister refused to take her home Sunday night as originally planned. We had her for two more days before the mother returned my sister's calls. My sister also told her that we were taking her to the doctor, and that after that we were calling the police. I wasn't present for the conversation, but I think my sister basically told her that she had been negligent (and not just this time or matter -- this was just the worst) and if she didn't like it to call the police on us and explain it all to them. The mother didn't call the police on us. We ended up having her for a few months. The mother decided to wait out the trial and stay in the apartment complex. So we had her until the pervert went to jail.

The poor girl actually had to go to court and testify against him. It was horrible.

The girl is now in her 40s, and she and my sister are still close.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: tanstaafl

Most children are abused by family members or close friends of the family. Often, people are shocked, and often in denial, to learn that a beloved friend or family member is accused or guilty of such crimes.

A 4-year-old can't really speak to their own abuse, it takes someone to observe, advocate and intervene for them. Even a 17-year-old cheerleader will have a difficult time convincing people that a beloved football player raped her.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Why do suppose animals, including humans, evolved to experience empathy? What is it for, if not survival of the species?

Usually people are shocked because they had no idea whatsoever that person even had a problem. I don't know if there is just too much of a "stigma" attached, but the importance of mental health has been constantly stressed the past couple decades by a lot of people (news segments, advertisements, other means of communication). Maybe realizing they have a problem and seeking counseling and other things to try and help stop them from abusing children is too difficult because there is a "stigma". But I think anyone who is reaching out honestly for help with this issue should probably be praised.

I just don't understand why there aren't more intervention or help for these people or if help does exist, are they just scared, not want help? Do efforts to help not work?

a reply to: tanstaafl

Irrelevant to my point.

What is your point? The guy has been dead for over 50 years.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: tanstaafl
Well, this was almost 40 years ago, laws were different, and the "kidnap" part was refusing to give her back, not taking her. The child was spending the weekend with my sister with the mother's consent.

Oh, wow, ok, that all makes a lot more sense now, thanks. Kudos to your sister for being strong enough to handle the situation like that, and to you all for helping that poor little girl out. I have two daughters, 8 and 5, and I just ... can't ... imagine ... my mind starts going bonkers when I think about someone doing something like that to a child. Old man or not, ...

Well, anyway, glad to hear it had a happier ending than some do.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: tanstaafl

What is your point?

My apologies for overstepping...

a reply to: tanstaafl

I brought it up to comment on how irreparably devastated, I, as a victim, would have been if a "beloved" family member was executed because of me.

Sorry, not sorry, that you want to make that contentious.

if you have an open and shut case where there is zero doubt the offender abused a child


no appeals

no free cot and 3 hot meals


just a .22 in the back of the court house.



that or send the all to an island in the middle of the atlantic and see if they can survive.


there is no rehabbing a child molester, its who they are. its like being attracted to woman or men, no amount f prison is going to change that.


extermination is the only fix so the genes and passed on trauma don't get passed to younger generations.


most S.O's are victims them self's but continue the cycle, someone has to stop the cycle be it with a bullet or sending them to an island never to leave./

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: jazzman1122

they are monsters of the worst kind.

i say let them burn for eternity

One problem is it cost more to execute someone than put them in prison for life. I understand the fundamental idea to make a punishment so hard that people don't do a crime like kidnapping after Lindburg's child was kidnapped. I would think putting them in the general prison population would be the worst of the two punishments.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: tanstaafl

Sorry, not sorry, that you want to make that contentious.

My apologies for overstepping...

a reply to: tanstaafl

But it does explain a lot about your posts, so thanks for that.

No it doesn't. It explains that my abuser was a family member, my grandfather's brother, my mother's uncle, a jovial, fun loving, life of the party type guy that was well loved by my family.

It doesn't explain one god-damned thing about me or my posts.