War on Terror? What Terror?

IMO, the Patriot Act was merely the political equivalent of the burning of the Reichstag.

I’m not saying this to pick a fight or anything but I want you to show me the actual legislation of the "Patriot Act" that dismantles the governing body of the US.

Originally posted by Moon Puppy
What news sources are you talking about. Everything I see from the "BS" networks try to hang him.

- What like the gov paid (but forgot to tell the readership/viewers that they were) propagandists?

Liberal media my as$.

Hell CBS even completely discredited themselves over this idea he is some sort of draft dodger. (Wonder what all the reservest today have to say about them being draft dodgers)

- If you really think getting into the 'Champaign squadron' (with never a chance in a million if Bush doing anything or going anywhere but sit at home) is the same as any other 'reservist' I suggest you get your brains examined.

(and apparantly he couldn't even manage that without disappearing for extended periods)

For Bunny---On october 20th 1942, the us government ordered the seizure of Nazi German Banking Operations in new york city which were being conducted by prescott bush. Under the Trading with the enemy Act, the government took over the Union Banking Corps. shares,all of which were owned by Prescott Bush, E Ronlad "Bunny" Harriman and three Nazi executives, and two other associates of Prescott Bush....On Nov. 17, 1942...President Rooselvelt's Alien custodian, Leo t. Crowley, signed Vesting Order#248 seizing the property of Prescott Bush under the Trading With The Enemy Act.

And there's so much more. Just google Bush Family Nazi connections--Oh and Bush family Eugenics,[population genetics manipulation and control,].

Off subject, I know, but seems you need a little better understanding of the Bush Family.

[edit on 12-4-2005 by kazi]

From a group who hunts Nazis

Rumors about the alleged Nazi "ties" of the late Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, have circulated widely through the Internet in recent years. These charges are untenable and politically motivated.

Despite some early financial dealings between Prescott Bush and a Nazi industrialist named Fritz Thyssen (who was arrested by the Nazi regime in 1938 and imprisoned during the war), Prescott Bush was neither a Nazi nor a Nazi sympathizer.

I know you folks will not accept this info as well, I'm sure that the ADL is just another wing of the Trilateralist-Mason-CFR conspiracy folks. I mean, the ADL even believes there was a Holocaust in Nazi Germany...

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey


- If you really think getting into the 'Champaign squadron' (with never a chance in a million if Bush doing anything or going anywhere but sit at home) is the same as any other 'reservist' I suggest you get your brains examined.

(and apparantly he couldn't even manage that without disappearing for extended periods)

You obviously don't understand how the "RESERVES" works. The whole idea is that you are not on a military base 24/7. Or maybe you are relaying on those CBS documents as your evidence…

The idea of flying an F104 to meet possible nuclear bombers is some sort of skate duty would warrant the head examination. (unless of course you can show how smart you are by pointing out a misspelled word again, mistakes happens, I’d love to see yours)

Midnight, you said alot and said nothing at the same time. Congrats on that accomplishment.

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
Those who have been applying the social & political tactics the the Nazi Party after WW 2. You are aware how the top personel from Hitler's administration were divided between USSR & USA, aren't you? It's not any single individual that really holds the political power. That type of "politician" knows the value of being the "power behind the throne" rather than sitting on the throne...Because sitting on that throne also puts a bullseye on your chest.

You still didn't answer my question. Who are these people, and what are they waiting for? They could have easily done it after WW2 when the people were much more trusting of the government. Why are "they" making things more difficult?

Ah, but it is working because the vast majority fail to see it happening. This country needs to have that majority to be aware of it, otherwise those tactics will just slip right by them & take effect.

Do you have examples or are you just stating your opinion?

Not like the "soap-box" speeches that you mention later in your post because that won't work.

Checking over my post.......hmmm........what are you talking about?

...Your habit of using sarcastic humor to tear apart comments adds nothing to ideas for possible solutions.

Checking over my post again..........again what are you talking about?

solutions to what btw?

Such behavior is more consistant with an "Internet Troll" than someone who has any useful input to a discussion. Yes, I've been known to use humor & sarcasm at times, but it's always to make a point or to suppliment actual logic & reasoning concerning the topic at hand...Unlike you.

You quoted me, so I'm assuming you're talking to me, no?
Did you even read my posts?

Have you been aware of how much the US government has bypassed or totally disregarded the Constitution? Read the Constitution itself as well as the history & conditions surrounding the legislation of Amendments.

I'm 100% sure I know more about our constitution and our government than you. 100% positive. I would love however for you to show me examples of how the gov has totally disreagarded the Constitution.
Is there a reason why I should read the history and conditions surrounding legislation of amendments?

IMO, the Patriot Act was merely the political equivalent of the burning of the Reichstag.

You're kidding I hope...

So "constitutional" doesn't describe the the way that the American government operates.

You haven't read it obviously.

Evidently you're too lazy to research my statements yourself, so you try to make me do your legwork for you? Visit the library sometime...They have wonderful inventions there, called books, that will serve to inform you.

You don't get it. If you're going to make claims on here, you have to back them up with verifiable facts. I'm not the one making the claim.
A bunch of words mean nothing if you can't back up what you're saying.

To me, it sounds like you're merely comparing the number of incidents...Well, I hate to inform you of this, but there will be more terrorist acts recorded before 9/11 than after. A lot more history happened before 9/11.

Then how can you say the War on Terror has made the situation worse?

At any rate, what effect do you think the Patriot Act has had on the US Constitution? According to the terms of that document, it "legally" leaves the government free to openly commit more acts upon the citizens.

So far it has had NO effect. Not one thing in the Constitution has been changed. And if you had read the PatAct, you would know if anything it's non-citizens would be the ones who have to "worry". The checks and balances are still there when it comes to US citizens.

This was even after the US has been responsible for funding & training terrorists all over the world. (For one example out of many, you do know that the CIA trained Osama bin Laden in terrorist tactics, don't you?)

Ahh yes, the old "we trained all the bad guys" argument.
When the facts are out and looked at, it's not an argument that holds much water. Unfortunately and fustratingly, not all the facts can be out yet. I said before (in another thread?) most of what the CIA does, you will never know. And if you do know, it's for a reason. Also, if you do know, ALOT of the time you're not going to always know why.

think that the few short years after our Founding Fathers first formed the government might apply?

If you were white and rich then yeah it'd apply.

Perhaps only a mere generation or two after they died is how long I figure the government reamined uncorrupted. It certainly didn't take very long for foreign interests to find ways to insinuate themselves into the US governmental structure, despite all of the warnings & precautions the Founding Fathers took.

If it's been that long why do you believe the people don't know this? There's no evidence to support your claim that just a few Americans are aware of this. Again, do a simple street survey.

So, ThatsJustWeird, do you have anything constructive to add or are you just a Troll with too much of an attitude problem to give anyone some consideration?

So when I reply to a post, I'm being a troll. Yet you replied to my post and did the EXACT same thing I did, and....you're not a troll. Hmmm....
looks up 'double standard' in the dictionary
Hmmm.....

Originally posted by ulshadow
War on terror will never end, as long as there is religion and people who use a couple thousand year old book to Justify their actions. and as long as there is people who's like "my god is better than yours" there will always be terrorism.

I love your philosphy and I totally agree with you.

Originally posted by Moon Puppy
You obviously don't understand how the "RESERVES" works. The whole idea is that you are not on a military base 24/7.

- I'm quite aware that a reservist isn't expected to be on duty 24/7 and that the service expected is xx number of hours/days/weeks in any given year, actually.

Just as you are no doubt fully aware that ex-colleagues have come forward to state that 'dub-ya' couldn't even manage those lax requirements.

Or maybe you are relaying on those CBS documents as your evidence…

- No the testamony of those who said he got preferential treatment thanks to his daddy and that he didn't even manage to show up when he should have done will do me.

The idea of flying an F104 to meet possible nuclear bombers is some sort of skate duty would warrant the head examination.

- Yeah, coooo there's a likely scenario.

(unless of course you can show how smart you are by pointing out a misspelled word again, mistakes happens, I’d love to see yours)

- Er actually I wasn't pointing out anything, you just done that all by your self.

(I'm sure I've made plenty and not noticed and I certainly have yet to bitch about someone elses spelling here, actually)

[edit on 12-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Just as you are no doubt fully aware that ex-colleagues have come forward to state that 'dub-ya' couldn't even manage those lax requirements.

Why no I'm not aware of any ex_colleagues. Perhaps you can show me who they are, surely you don't mean Burkett the reputed source of the CBS documents do you?

Originally posted by Moon Puppy
NoJustice, I"m waiting breathlessly for the transcripts of Prescott Bush's trial.

Even if I did you wouldn't believe it's authentic anyway. I think someone could come to your door and staple the mark of the beast (actually the patened calls it the verichip) on your forehead and you'd smile. But I guess there would be no New World Order if people like you wouldn't refuse to see what's in front of their face. You see them all calling for a New World Order right in your face yet you deny it's existence

"There is a chance for the President of the United States to use this disaster to carry out ... a phrase his father used ... and that is a New World Order.”

Gary Hart, Democrat, former Senator, at an event sponsored by the Council on Foreign Relations, the United States’ real rulers, on the day after " ‘9/11’ ", September 12, 2001

"We stand today at a unique and extraordinary moment. The crisis in the Persian Gulf, as grave as it is, also offers a rare opportunity to move toward an historic period of cooperation. Out of these troubled times, our fifth objective – a new world order – can emerge.”

George Herbert Walker Bush, 41st President of the United States, on September 11, 1990.

All you can say you disagree with the man in charge about is perscription drugs? what about the war in Iraq that was admitted to be a complete lie by the administration themselves. I'd be surprised if there isn't someone you care about or know over there, risking their lives for nothing because they are being lied to. We're all being lied to. We can't keep accepting the lies as coincidences. The prior knowledge to 9/11, the fact that NORAD stood down for the first time it's in 50 year HISTORY on 9/11 because there were supposedly fake drills of planes crashing into buildings that same day.

If you want to be open minded at all I recommend you check out some of these documentaries

www.lastingnetworks.com...

I'd recommend 9/11 Road to Tyranny, Total Enslavement and Masters of Terror first. Actual Government agents, former Senators, current Senators come on and speak out against the Government. But they must be crazy huh? Also watch Secrets of the Bohemian Grove where World leaders gather yearly and admit it but say nothing bad happens there. Well Alex Jones penetrates the Bohemian Grove and exposes the Satanic ritual that goes on. The Bushes, Reagan, Clinton, Karl Rove, Nixon have all gone and many many more.





[edit on 12-4-2005 by NoJustice]

[edit on 12-4-2005 by NoJustice]

Originally posted by Moon Puppy
I’m not saying this to pick a fight or anything but I want you to show me the actual legislation of the "Patriot Act" that dismantles the governing body of the US.

-Section 213 of the USA Patriot Act allows any branch of the Federal or
State Governments to break into your home or business, to remove any items (or place items) they wish without a warrant and without informing the person or business of this total violation of the Fourth Amendment.

-Section 213 of the USA Patriot Act also decapitates the First Amendment
protection of Freedom of Speech by forcing silence on those victimized by
their Unconstitutional, warrantless searches.

-Section 215 of the USA Patriot Act gives law enforcement expanded authority
to obtain library and book store records (violating the Fourth Amendment)
all the while prohibiting librarians and store workers from informing
patrons of monitoring or information requests (violating the First
Amendment)

Congressman Ron Paul (R-Tex) told the Washington Times that no member of Congress was allowed to read the first Patriot Act that was passed by the House on October 27, 2001. The first Patriot Act was universally decried by civil libertarians and Constitutional scholars from across the political spectrum. William Safire, while writing for the New York Times, described the first Patriot Act's powers by saying that President Bush was seizing dictatorial control.

I don't want to have too long of a quote so you can see this rest at this site

www.stopcovertwar.com...



[edit on 12-4-2005 by NoJustice]

No, I would accept (if you could provide it) any replicable source like Findlaw or something for the LOC. Something that is verifiable. But I guess you will chastise me for being closed minded because I don't accept your word for it out of hand.

I'm just ignorant in your view huh, Well that's real open-minded isn't it? So let me get this straight, I’m open-minded if I agree with you but you are not closed minded for not agreeing with me. Thanks for that clarification.

Originally posted by Moon Puppy
No, I would accept (if you could provide it) any replicable source like Findlaw or something for the LOC. Something that is verifiable. But I guess you will chastise me for being closed minded because I don't accept your word for it out of hand.

I'm just ignorant in your view huh, Well that's real open-minded isn't it? So let me get this straight, I’m open-minded if I agree with you but you are not closed minded for not agreeing with me. Thanks for that clarification.

No you're close minded because I'm providing evidence that could possibly change your mind, but you refuse to even look at it. Like the website I provided www.lastingnetworks.com/alex you have not looked at. How do I know? I posted it about 30 minutes ago and those documentaries are about two hours a piece and you're already on here asking for more proof. That's all you do in all your post is ask for proof, someone attempts to give you the proof, and you ignore it and ask for more proof. What exactly is the point of that exactly? is it fun to you? I hope so. But if you're not going to even look at the information given to you then your posts are a complete waste! But that's fine I really don't care if you wake up or not because it's pretty obvious you're not going to change your mind. I do recommend to others though to give those documentaries a chance at least with an open mind. They play in Windows Media Player.



[edit on 12-4-2005 by NoJustice]

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

Yes, real "inferno" inside the WTC; so hot that it melts steel, but people still can stand in the hole and wave for help.

lol, please widen the picture out.

What part of it wasn't just fire that made it collapse is hard to understand.

And what exactly is the point of linking a bunch of conspiricy sites? I thought you wanted truth, not conspiricies...

But what is the Truth?

The Official Story of 9/11 from the American goverment?

If that is the real Truth, why are there so many holes in it?

Why are there so many "Conspiracy" sites about it?

Why wont the People settle with this "official truth"?

I mean, there are so many Why's and other quesitons concerning this event.

Well after all, this is a Conspiracy forum, and alot of people come here for some Extra information - the kind they dont get on TV's and in the newspapers.

But OK, just fine - belive whatever you want, live in your perfect world of hunting down muslim terrorists, who are the "real threat to world peace".

Originally posted by Moon Puppy
Why no I'm not aware of any ex_colleagues. Perhaps you can show me who they are, surely you don't mean Burkett the reputed source of the CBS documents do you?

- No I don't mean Burkett, try this -

Walter V. Robinson in the May 23, 2000 issue of the Boston Globe. "1-year gap in Bush's Guard duty. No record of airman at drills from 1972-73"

The reporter based his story on "160 pages of his records, assembled by the Globe from a variety of sources and supplemented by interviews with former Guard officials." He presents the following six pieces of evidence for his assertion that Governor Bush missed a year of national guard duty:

1) Retired General William Turnipseed and his administrative officer at the time, Kenneth K. Lott, said they had no memory of Bush ever reporting. "Had he reported in, I would have had some recall, and I do not," Turnipseed said. "I had been in Texas, done my flight training there. If we had had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered."

2) Albert Lloyd Jr., a retired colonel who was the Texas Air Guard's personnel director from 1969 to 1995, said he does not know whether Bush performed duty in Alabama. "If he did, his drill attendance should have been certified and sent to Ellington, and there would have been a record. We cannot find the records to show he fulfilled the requirements in Alabama," he said. Lloyd, who has studied the records extensively, said he is an admirer of the governor and believes "the governor honestly served his country and fulfilled his commitment."

3) In May 1973, his two superior officers at Ellington Air Force Base [Texas], Lieutenant Colonel William D. Harris Jr. and Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian could not perform his annual evaluation covering the year from May 1, 1972 to April 30, 1973 because, they wrote, "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of this report. A civilian occupation made it necessary for him to move to Montgomery, Alabama. He cleared this base on 15 May 1972 and has been performing equivalent training in a non-flying status with the 187 Tac Recon Gp, Dannelly ANG Base, Alabama."

Bush, they mistakenly concluded, had been training with the Alabama unit for the previous 12 months. Both men have since died. But Ellington's top personnel officer at the time, retired Colonel Rufus G. Martin, said he too thought Bush had been in Alabama for that entire year. Harris and Killian, he said, would have known if Bush returned to duty at Ellington. And Bush, in his autobiography, identifies the late colonel Killian as a friend, making it even more likely that Killian knew where Bush was.

4) "Well, then it comes rating time, and someone says, `Oh ... he hasn't fulfilled his obligation.' I'll bet someone called him up and said, `George, you're in a pickle. Get your ass down here and perform some duty.' And he did," Lloyd said. That would explain, Lloyd said, the records showing Bush cramming so many drills into May, June, and July 1973. During those three months, Bush spent 36 days on duty.

5) In November 1973, responding to a request from the headquarters of the Air National Guard for Bush's annual evaluation for that year, Martin, the Ellington administrative officer, wrote, "Report for this period not available for administrative reasons."

6) Bush's discharge papers list his service and duty station for each of his first four years in the Air Guard. But there is no record of training listed after May 1972, and no mention of any service in Alabama. On that discharge form, Lloyd said, "there should have been an entry for the period between May 1972 and May 1973."

www.kings.edu...

- By the way you do realise how absurdly ridiculous the idea of comparing Bushs' Champaign Squadron reserve 'service' at home (all thanks to daddys contacts pulling favours), to some young guy drafted to action in Vietnam is, hmmmm?

Wow. Just Wow.

There is simply no way I could ever begin to untangle a thread like this.

It started out based on false assumptions in the very first post and went downhill from there.

I guess these sorts of things are fun, but I really don't see the point.

There's nothing new or even necessarily interesting to be found here, and I carefully waded through all three pages just to make sure.

Some odd informed comments now and then, but in a sea of utter nonsense, falsehoods and self-deception.

The reason I'm posting this is not to knock anyone -- I like to be silly now and then, too, and I am overwhelmingly impressed at the silliness I'm seeing here.

Huzzah, pass me another pint!

But the idea that anything meaningful could come from a thread like this is something I find hard to believe.

Rather, it reads like a transcript from a night at a pub somewhere. Lots of talk, little substance.

Just giving my honest opinion. Feel free to bag on me all you want for it -- I expect no less when I step into a pub and make a jackassed observation like this one.

I ask only that if you want to razz me for this post -- and you'd be justified in doing so, that you try to keep it in this thread.

In other threads, I prefer to talk about Denying Ignorance -- which clearly has no place in this one.

Nojustic do you think you are the first person to attempt to tell me about these things? I wanted to you to show me the actual legislation but you show me someone's interpretation. no dice.

sminkeypinkey if you read carefully in what you posted you will see that the points for the year in question was obtained. But even at that, he had obtained enough service points in years prior to finish out his obligations so what's the problem?

# Jan. 19, 1968: Bush completes Air Force officer qualifications test in New Haven, Conn., while attending Yale University.

# May 27, 1968: Walter B. Staudt, commander of the Texas National Guard, interviews Bush and recommends he be accepted for pilot training. Bush's application for enlistment in the Guard is approved.

# June 1968: Bush receives bachelor of arts degree from Yale.

# July 12, 1968: A three-member Federal Recognition Examining Board reports Bush is qualified for promotion to 2nd lieutenant in the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron.

# July 14, 1968: Bush attends basic military training in San Antonio.

# Aug. 25, 1968: Completes basic military training.

# Nov. 26, 1968 to Dec. 2, 1969: Attends undergraduate pilot training with the 3559th Student Squadron, Moody Air Force Base, Ga. He is trained to fly standard Air Force aircraft, including the T-31, T-37 and T-39.

# Dec. 29, 1969 to Jan. 20, 1970: Trainee, 111th Squadron, Ellington Air Force Base, near Houston.

# Jan. 11, 1970: Assigned flying duty as a pilot of F-102 fighter interceptors, 111th Squadron at Ellington.

# Aug. 24, 1970: Three-member board recommends 2nd Lt. Bush for promotion to first lieutenant. Bush later receives the promotion.

# 1971: Participates in drills and alerts at Ellington. Begins work for Houston agricultural company.

# May 1972: Bush asks for and receives permission to continue his duties in Alabama while he works as political director on the Senate campaign of Winton M. Blount, a friend of his father. Loses flight credentials after missing physical exam.

# Sept. 6, 1972: Bush's request for a three-month transfer to 187th TAC Recon Group, Montgomery, Ala., is approved so he can work as political director for a Senate campaign.

# November 1972: Bush returns to his unit at Ellington in Texas.

# May-July 1973: Participates in non-flying drills at Ellington. Works at inner-city poverty program earlier in the year.

# Sept. 18, 1973: Bush receives permission to transfer to reserve status and is placed on inactive guard duty about six months before six-year commitment ends. Attends Harvard Business School in the fall.

# Oct. 1, 1973: Receives honorable discharge.

A little info for ya

You know the democrats have stopped beating this dead horse, so why don't you?

But Majic is right, this is pointless, I'll never change your mind and you will never change my mine. So I guess we are both closed minded huh?



[edit on 13-4-2005 by Moon Puppy]

[edit on 13-4-2005 by Moon Puppy]

Originally posted by Apass
Yes, 3,000 deaths in New York and Washington was a tragedy...one of the government's own making I might add. But boy, they showed those Iraqi's who's boss didn't they? Iraq...that had nothing to do with 9/11. All I can do is shake my head in disbelief.

Yep, they sure had. About 100.000 times.

Originally posted by Moon Puppy
So now the son is guilty of the father's crimes (if there were any) in your world?

Then why are US Army and Iraqi police kidnaping family members of insurgents. Tell me that. They are being punished for their crimes.

Originally posted by Souljah
But what is the Truth?

The Official Story of 9/11 from the American goverment?

If that is the real Truth, why are there so many holes in it?

Why are there so many "Conspiracy" sites about it?

Why wont the People settle with this "official truth"?

I mean, there are so many Why's and other quesitons concerning this event.

Exactly! What truth?
Why are you willing to believe conspiracies with even MORE holes in them than the "official" version?
What exactly is the official version btw?
That 4 planes were hijacked by terrorists who planned and trained for this over several years and used the planes as missles, with three hitting their targets, right? (there's more to why the fourth didn't hit, but...that's for later..........years later)

What's the most popular nonofficial version?
That Bush and company planned the whole thing, paid for it, trained the terrorists, and pulled off the most devastating attack on US soil all in the span of 9 months (Yet he can't even eat a pretzel right...).
They did it by using remote control passenger planes, set explosives which they placed inside the WTC years ago as it was being constructed (because that's the ONLY way they could have placed them in the right spots), and missles.

That version isn't bad. It's just not logical.

But OK, just fine - belive whatever you want, live in your perfect world of hunting down muslim terrorists, who are the "real threat to world peace".

Perfect world? Where!?
It's amazing how you lable people who believe there really are terrorists in the world as people who believe this is a perfect world. It's funny and sad at the same time. If they believed this is a perfect world, why do they also believe there are terrorists?

Why is "real threat to world peace" in quotations? Who are you quoting?